Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[Mugzy97]

It's because we are tired of watching the same shit for the past 8 years. He is a soft player. Always will be.

He plays like he's a defensemen, playing up high at the blue line. What other forward in the NHL plays like this? ANYONE? Last I checked, defensemen don't make 13 mil plus a year.

Oh you want to be a gritty tram who has no talent but at least they grind hard! Just like when we had Bozak as our top line C. That was fun. I get it.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Lmfao. Tell me which team has won by building through UFA? I’ll wait. The answer is zero. We’ve discussed this at length. Biggest mistakes are made on July 1st. No team in the cap era has EVER won by building a core through UFA maybe except Vegas who also had to go 10+ mill over the cap in LTIR.

Every other team drafted, developed, then traded for youngish core pieces with TERM that solidified their rosters thus leading to a Stanley cup.

St. Louis - traded for Ryan O’Reilly

Pittsburgh - traded for Kessel and traded away Jordan Staal after winning their first

Los Angeles - Traded for Jeff Carter and other pieces

Tampa - brought up a bunch of guys from their AHL system and then traded for guys like Goodrow and Coleman

Vegas - even then they traded for Mark Stone and Eichel

Florida - traded for Bennett, Reinhart, Tkachuk, picked up Forsling off waivers, traded for Montour

Washington - Traded for Oshie and brought up Kuznetsov and Carlson

Boston traded Kessel to acquire Hamilton and Seguin

Colorado traded for Toews, Kadri, Val Nickushkin and a few others


I’d say Anaheim, Vegas and Boston(barely) are the only teams really to build through UFA if you want to give them credit for that. But even Anaheim had their core drafted.

The answer was there after the Montreal series. You probably needed to flip one of the three guys for a different type of player or a defenseman. That ship has sailed. Unless you bring in Rantanen or grab McDavid next year, the odds of building a winner in UFA are low.

Exactly. That's why I said I feel for the guy who takes over from Kyle. The only option that guy has is to build from UFAs. Not a good option.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Guarantee his camp is eyeing a 2-year deal. Cap projections have it going up magnitudes in a couple years time (though myself personally, I suspect real word economy problems are going to get in the way of this) and signing long-term now versus a couple years time could mean a galaxy's difference in $$$. Mitch is money hungry, it's obviously no secret, he's not looking to lock himself out of potential paydays with a cap that's $110M+

That's why I suggested Mitch might be looking at 1 year deals. The cap will go up each year and he can make even more money just committing to 1 year.

 

[LeafEgo]

Lmfao. Tell me which team has won by building through UFA? I’ll wait. The answer is zero. We’ve discussed this at length. Biggest mistakes are made on July 1st. No team in the cap era has EVER won by building a core through UFA maybe except Vegas who also had to go 10+ mill over the cap in LTIR.

Every other team drafted, developed, then traded for youngish core pieces with TERM that solidified their rosters thus leading to a Stanley cup.

Our primary core pieces, 11M+, would both have been drafted and developed, not acquired through FA. Ditto Rielly and Woll, so your premise is flawed.

Our current drafted prospects could be traded for that youngish core piece.

We're also looking specifically at Toronto, using the information we have. We did poorly compared to other teams developing a contender, and that can't be changed

 

[francis246]

Our primary core pieces, 11M+, would both have been drafted and developed, not acquired through FA. Ditto Rielly and Woll, so your premise is flawed.

Our current drafted prospects could be traded for that youngish core piece.

We're also looking specifically at Toronto, using the information we have. We did poorly compared to other teams developing a contender, and that can't be changed

Lmao what? You just said building through UFA is our best option and I showed you why. Not sure how our core being drafted and developed makes my premise flawed.

Drafting and development isn’t bad on Toronto’s part but the thing they haven’t done or have been bad at doing that other teams that have won aren’t is, identifying which player you drafted/developed doesn’t fit the roster anymore. They’ve been scared to make that trade. They have no problem walking guys to UFA and signing aging vets. But that isn’t a recipe for success. You need to parlay available cap and your assets into young guys who are on value contracts that will come to your team and out perform those contracts in addition to the core guys you’ve identified can win. It’s a simple formula that I’ve outlined works. Toronto and Buffalo seem to be among the teams who are constantly giving other teams good young players on value contracts though lol.

 

[francis246]

Exactly. That's why I said I feel for the guy who takes over from Kyle. The only option that guy has is to build from UFAs. Not a good option.

Yup! My suggestion if I was the GM of the leafs, would be this, run it with this core one last time. Win or lose, we probably move on from Mitch. But we do our damn best to make it a sign and trade scenario. Mitch to NYI could be a possibility. Mitch and Matt Martin are really close friends, NYI loves to play a possession style game which benefits Mitch. They are also craving an offensive star there. Dobson wants to be paid 8 million and I don’t think Lou is willing to do that. So this off season id push Marner sign and trade to the Islander for Dobson’s RFA rights. If Dobson makes it past the trade deadline.

 

[Hellcat]

Prospects: Knies will bring more production next year, though Cowan and Minten are long shots.

Trade: We don't have many assets, but enough to land one high level player. With more cap space you open up the aperture of possible candidates for that big time acquisition.

UFA: The benefit here is that you can acquire multiple pieces, gain long term flexibility, and it's a multi year advantage. Most importantly, looking back this would have been the better path each year, for quite a stretch. Though this year could change that fact, so we'll see.

Knies is what he is, will he improve next year or have a sophomore slump? I think he tops out around 35 goals and 35 assists.

Who are some UFA that we could target next year at a reasonable cap hit and would replace 90 points?

I think we may sometimes value our prospects more than other teams do. If you are to believe the rumors Philly wanted Cowan for Laughton . I think Cowan is 2 years away from regular NHL shifts, IMHO.

 

[LeafEgo]

Lmao what? You just said building through UFA is our best option and I showed you why. Not sure how our core being drafted and developed makes my premise flawed.

Drafting and development isn’t bad on Toronto’s part but the thing they haven’t done or have been bad at doing that other teams that have won aren’t is, identifying which player you drafted/developed doesn’t fit the roster anymore. They’ve been scared to make that trade. They have no problem walking guys to UFA and signing aging vets. But that isn’t a recipe for success. You need to parlay available cap and your assets into young guys who are on value contracts that will come to your team and out perform those contracts in addition to the core guys you’ve identified can win. It’s a simple formula that I’ve outlined works. Toronto and Buffalo seem to be among the teams who are constantly giving other teams good young players on value contracts though lol.

No, the discussion was about replacing Marners impact today, not building a core from scratch. You suggested that building a core through UFA was impossible (not true, Vegas), but that's irrelevant. Especially since sans Marner we would still have a core that wasn't built through UFA anyways.

I agree with your second part, that's what I'm saying, we did a poor job when it counted most, but that history can't be changed now. We are working our way out of a less than ideal situation.

 

[Hellcat]

You didn’t even read my post if you think I said he took a pay cut. I don’t think he should take a pay cut.

You are blaming Mitch for the leafs failures. That’s what I read.

I can’t wait until Mitch re-signs. It sucks that it feels like I’m the minority.

You're not in the minority, there a a couple of very vocal people that are on repeat with their negativity.

The highlighted part is the most obvious of obvious things, that for an unknown reason is ignored.

 

[thewave]

After 8 years of constant embarrassing exits, people want change. I understand that. Matty and Nylander are already signed with NTC/NMC, makes it harder to walk away from them. I get that. I think what people are missing is Marner is an asset and we have a weak farm system. If he left we would have to replace his production with prospects, a trade or a UFA. Since we dont have a lot of assets, probably not goign to see that production from a rookie. Since our assets are not great, we are not trading any of our assets to get a 1st line production type player. If we want to replace him through UFA, that means we are probably over paying for UFA, UFA's who generate 90+ points a year typically dont leave their teams to go to another team at a team friendly contract.

The construct people (haters) have built that if we just dump Mitch and then all that cap room means we suddenly become cup contenders are at best dreaming in technicolor. You have to do somethign with that cap but we are extremely limited in what we can do. In managements mind, if you keep mitch you keep 90+points plus elite defensive play.




WOW...

1) Elliott makes a living out of making shit up for click bait, that is how he pays his mortgage, some people who dont have a good Bullshit detector, get suckered in, take it as gospel and form baseless groundless opinions.

2) He's a POS person? WOW, just WOW. Marner Assist Foundation

The goal of the Marner Assist Foundation is to generate sustainable change for children and youth by providing resources that will make a significant impact on their lives. The focus is to provide assistance in the areas of children’s social care, health, education as well as supporting environmental causes to ensure our children have a sustainable future.​

The more you post the less your responses have anything to do with hockey and border on willful ignorance / targeted personal attacks on a person you've never met. Please attempt to stay on point.

Dude be better.

Be better?

A scrawny little guy that does not work out hardly for strength and is slow, never won a thing with us just used the media again to basically say screw you, the team, your discounts etc. HE SAID I am not waiving and don't care and not signing until I see my options.

That's what he just did.

Can't stand him, he can take his ass out of here. I don't care about regular season in the face of 8 playoff failures that he is a massive part of.

 

[francis246]

Be better?

A scrawny little guy that does not work out hardly for strength and is slow, never won a thing with us just used the media again to basically say screw you, the team, your discounts etc. HE SAID I am not waiving and don't care and not signing until I see my options.

That's what he just did.

Can't stand him, he can take his ass out of here. I don't care about regular season in the face of 8 playoff failures that he is a massive part of.

What have any of our core guys won in a team context?

I also agree with Hellcat. Calling him a POS because

1. He’s refusing a trade based on something that he negotiated in good faith, whether you like it or not.

And

2. Taking his time to make a decision that can be life altering and a huge change for himself and his family seems very petty IMO.

Those are not even valid reasons to call the guy a POS. He hasn’t done anything to anyone besides do what he’s entitled to do within the CBA.

everyday it’s people on here projecting instead of just discussing the team and the contract. Why any grown man feels it’s necessary to comment on another man’s body (a stranger at that, is wild to me). His body comp doesn’t really mean anything and we’ve already seen guys with similar body comps be effective.

 

[thewave]

What have any of our core guys won in a team context?

Eliminations games. More

I also agree with Hellcat. Calling him a POS because

He is a POS because he and his agent are playing a snakes game. Show me when he took accountability for losses.

1. He’s refusing a trade based on something that he negotiated in good faith, whether you like it or not.

He fought for that overpay and the hostage holding in the last year with a literal idiot GM in Dubas. Took advantage.

And

2. Taking his time to make a decision that can be life altering and a huge change for himself and his family seems very petty IMO.

Wrong message in sports. Maybe baby doesn't cut it. So I am going to carry my drama into the playoffs. Got it.

Those are not even valid reasons to call the guy a POS. He hasn’t done anything to anyone besides do what he’s entitled to do within the CBA.

everyday it’s people on here projecting instead of just discussing the team and the contract. Why any grown man feels it’s necessary to comment on another man’s body (a stranger at that, is wild to me). His body comp doesn’t really mean anything and we’ve already seen guys with similar body comps be effective.

Another 20m for JT and Mitch? There is no discussion. Not winning.

Crazy stuff.

 

[ToneDog]

You didn’t even read my post if you think I said he took a pay cut. I don’t think he should take a pay cut.

You are blaming Mitch for the leafs failures. That’s what I read.

I can’t wait until Mitch re-signs. It sucks that it feels like I’m the minority.

You said, "You think Marner should take a pay cut but I guarantee if you were in his shoes you would want to be paid what you are worth.". I've never said he should take a pay cut. My position has always been, we should not overpay him and that 12.5-12.8m is more than fair. AT $13+m. I'd rather put an end to this overpaid, underperforming core and I'd move the leader as fast as any of the others for the right return.

 

[francis246]

Eliminations games. More

He is a POS because he and his agent are playing a snakes game. Show me when he took accountability for losses.

He fought for that overpay and the hostage holding in the last year with a literal idiot GM in Dubas. Took advantage.

Wrong message in sports. Maybe baby doesn't cut it. So I am going to carry my drama into the playoffs. Got it.


Another 20m for JT and Mitch? There is no discussion. Not winning.

Crazy stuff.

Lmao take a chill pill man. It’s the long weekend.

He didn’t take advantage of anything. This narrative is so dumb and drawn out. Mitch, Nylander and Matthews did not have full NMC’s until the last two years of their contracts because as per CBA rules RFA’s cannot have NMC’s until they turn UFA age.. That’s price to pay for buying UFA years.

Up until 2023 the team was free to trade any of the three. The organization chose not to do so… please remind me why we are mad at Mitch?

You’re advocating for signing others in UFA right? So wouldn’t that make Bennett and Ekblad POS’ too because they haven’t made up their minds either. They are leaving Florida in limbo as well. Oh Rantanen a big POS, wouldn’t sign. Do you see how dumb that narrative is?

Take a minute to stop being so red eyed and realize he has every right to not agree to a trade and he doesn’t have to rush to sign. The team put themselves in that position not Marner.

 

[thewave]

You said, "You think Marner should take a pay cut but I guarantee if you were in his shoes you would want to be paid what you are worth.". I've never said he should take a pay cut. My position has always been, we should not overpay him and that 12.5-12.8m is more than fair. AT $13+m. I'd rather put an end to this overpaid, underperforming core and I'd move the leader as fast as any of the others for the right return.

What point is there to pay him 12.5m with a NMC once again? He isn't a winner and 100% he and his agent have played dirty pool at every contract.

When do you just say, you know what. Forget it.

 

[ToneDog]

When’s the last time Brady has played in a playoff game lol? Let alone scored? Weren’t you guys the ones saying this tournament doesn’t matter? So who cares if Brady scored two goals. It doesn’t matter

Was it not the biggest game of his career? The lengths you will go to defend your boy. In case you have not been watching, this tournament is turning into more than anybody could have envisioned it would be. These guys are playing to win for their countries. You don't think it would help Mitch's rep if he scores a couple of goals in regulation tonight and they beat the Americans?

 

[thewave]

Lmao take a chill pill man. It’s the long weekend.

He didn’t take advantage of anything. This narrative is so dumb and drawn out. Mitch, Nylander and Matthews did not have full NMC’s until the last two years of their contracts because as per CBA rules RFA’s cannot have NMC’s until they turn UFA age.. That’s price to pay for buying UFA years.

Up until 2023 the team was free to trade any of the three. The organization chose not to do so… please remind me why we are mad at Mitch?

You’re advocating for signing others in UFA right? So wouldn’t that make Bennett and Ekblad POS’ too because they haven’t made up their minds either. They are leaving Florida in limbo as well. Oh Rantanen a big POS, wouldn’t sign. Do you see how dumb that narrative is?

Take a minute to stop being so red eyed and realize he has every right to not agree to a trade and he doesn’t have to rush to sign. The team put themselves in that position not Marner.

They are playing the same silly games with the same silly player. Not winning and running it back over and over. That right there is insanity.

They go long on him and in 8 years you're going to be the we shoulda coulda woulda guy

 

[francis246]

Was it not the biggest game of his career? The lengths you will go to defend your boy. In case you have not been watching, this tournament is turning into more than anybody could have envisioned it would be. These guys are playing to win for their countries. You don't think it would help Mitch's rep if he scores a couple of goals in regulation tonight and they beat the Americans?

Classic goal post moving.

Does the tournament matter or not. Or does it only matter for Brady Tkachuk because he’s never made the playoffs?

I find it hilarious that you are telling me to pay attention now, when myself and others were the only ones saying this tournament matters to the players. Now you have the audacity to tell me to pay attention LOL?

 

[ToneDog]

What point is there to pay him 12.5m with a NMC once again? He isn't a winner and 100% he and his agent have played dirty pool at every contract.

When do you just say, you know what. Forget it.

You and I would but we are trying to win the SC, not keep the kids who love him happy, the paying customers entertained or sell jerseys.

 

[hullsy47]

lol at letting an all star player walk just to talk to a player


He might!

Why hasnt marner signed?he was treated more than fair last contract
Make no mistake the leafs would take rataanen over marner and would throw the max at mcdavid
They have to

 

[thewave]

You and I would but we are trying to win the SC, not keep the kids who love him happy, the paying customers entertained or sell jerseys.

So is your reasoning to offer him 12.5m so if it doesn't work , you force him to waive?

I get you get some return that way

Why hasnt marner signed?he was treated more than fair last contract
Make no mistake the leafs would take rataanen over marner and would throw the max at mcdavid
They have to

Both are better options. Both are gambles but to me so is winning with Mitch.

 

[ToneDog]

Classic goal post moving.

Does the tournament matter or not. Or does it only matter for Brady Tkachuk because he’s never made the playoffs?

From what I have seen in two games the tournament matters to the players. They are not treating it like an all-star game which is what I was hoping for. So you blame Brady for a shitty Sens team not making the playoffs? Classic.

 

[luiginb]

Marner is going to pull a reverse Tavares

 

[ToneDog]

So is your reasoning to offer him 12.5m so if it doesn't work , you force him to waive?

I get you get some return that way


Both are better options. Both are gambles but to me so is winning with Mitch.

The problem is it is the f***ing loser Leafs and they will pay him more than Matthews, if Ferris digs in, before they even consider forcing him to waive. They are treating him like a God rather than making him earn his next contract by playing on his line without 34 or 91.

 

[thewave]

The problem is it is the f***ing loser Leafs and they will pay him more than Matthews, if Ferris digs in, before they even consider forcing him to waive. They are treating him like a God rather than making him earn his next contract by playing on his line without 34 or 91.

I agree with that. I would just tell him we aren't interested in your services anymore. The guy is going to lose a lot on endorsements alone. He will panic.