Player Discussion Mitch Marner Part Infinity

[ULF_55]

The next team will soon realize that once regular season pay periods run out, so does Marner.

Statistically, marner is Top 17 for P/PG in the playoffs past 5 years, minimum 20 games played.

So he doesn't no-show, he just isn't a Top 10 player.
On his existing contract that's probably fine.
Just that some other players deliver a better return on investment than marner. Kucherov just 1 example, Rantanen is another, Marchand another, ...

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[Caesium]

4th highest paid by 100K.

5th in goals (both ES and overall) while being second (by 4 seconds) in ice time per game and second (by 5 seconds) is ES ice time per game by forwards.

"All situations" doesn’t seem to include playoffs, which seems to be the place where most posters say he's not delivering.

If you don't think Marner delivered in the playoffs, despite having the best P/GP of all of the Leafs players over the past 9 years, then no one delivered in the playoffs. You must be extra mad about Matthews still being on the team (and at 13.25M) and Nylander (at 11.5M).

 

[Confucius]

If you don't think Marner delivered in the playoffs, despite having the best P/GP of all of the Leafs players over the past 9 years, then no one delivered in the playoffs. You must be extra mad about Matthews still being on the team (and at 13.25M) and Nylander (at 11.5M).

Well William leads the team over the last 4 years 16 goals 35 points, compared to Mitch 8 goals 30 points. Going back more than 4 years doesn’t relate to a player’s worth today. So I wouldn’t be paying Mitch as much as William, especially if you think William is overpaid.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

marner can help regular season and playoffs.

can.

but hasn't thus far.

so playoff Marner could be a thing. at this stage it's theoretical.

 

[ACC1224]

This is what some of us have been saying for years.
As individuals, they are all talented and would fit into a well structured core that has the ability to adapt and play to different styles.
All of them together on one team doesn’t work postseason as they all lack a certain edge needed. We’ve seen the results over a large sample size.
It could have been altered years ago but management couldn’t see beyond doing the same thing. Now it’s coming down to an ugly divorce. But make no mistake, even with Marner walking (if he does) we are still left with the same issues. Matthews and Nylander belong as pieces on another team, not the focal points leading one.

Perfectly reasonable view to take and I don't think there are many that don't believe that change is needed, the opinions on who/how vary.

If only those with the non stop, made up childish garbage posts that has littered these threads for the past year or so would be able to post something rational like that, the IQ of this place would increase dramatically.

 

[Dekes For Days]

In the playoffs?

Yes. He regularly goes up against cup finalists and Vezina-caliber goaltending, taking on matchup roles, and yet he consistently controls play and wins those matchups.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Every player on every Cup winner fits that description.

The Leafs have had good years the last several years, just not winning the Cup years.

Can marner go to a team and help them win a Cup?
Kessel did.

The worst player on the Panthers just won the Cup.

Kessel did with Pittsburgh because we were paying a big chunk of his salary.

How much was the "worst player on the Panthers" paid?

 

[Aashir]

If you don't think Marner delivered in the playoffs, despite having the best P/GP of all of the Leafs players over the past 9 years, then no one delivered in the playoffs. You must be extra mad about Matthews still being on the team (and at 13.25M) and Nylander (at 11.5M).

finally the first comment out of dozens you've said that doesn't sound like a rabbid dog

yes none of them have delivered, for a bit nylander delivered on the 7M dollar deal, but not anymore at 11.5m. And Matthews has deliver exactly one game every postseason for the past like 4 years so yes he's been bad too.

however it does suck, but not surprising that marner criticism/hate always goes 2 ways:
1) bringing up irrelevant information to the discussion

2) bringing up Matthews and Nylander to deflect off of him

it never is as simple as the point being accepted, or refuted properly but that just doesn't and hasn't happened ever.

 

[Stephen]

I haven't dragged anybody through the mud. You've just dragged Marner through the mud so much that you've lost sight of how he actually compares to the rest of the league. I also haven't invented or spun anything. You just refuse to accept how NHL contracts work. Nobody has been fired for standing by Marner, and the only people "upset by literally everything" and throwing "tantrums" are people on this board. 6 years of irrational anger over a fair contract and top tier performance, with every quote, decision, action, mistake, breath, etc. getting picked apart, misrepresented, and complained about.

You can try to misrepresent and dismiss the things that Marner has had to put up with throughout his career all you want, but it doesn't change that he has a number of legitimate grievances, and all he's done is gone out there and done his job without complaint. Marner didn't want to leave Toronto. Treliving and people like you have screwed that up, and now after years of delivering top tier performance, he is just leaving quietly and moving on with his life. It's fans and the media that can't stop talking about him, as usual.

The work you’ve done to try and diminish players like Mikko Rantanen, Brayden Point, Sebastian Aho and countless other players who make less money, have success in the playoffs in trying to establish Marner’s unassailable superiority has been exhaustive and exhausting and pointless.

All of this Marner maneuvering isn’t quiet at all. Dreger’s reporting of a long and drawn out league wide summer tour is Marner camp information. The grievances are Marner camp origin. Oh, it’s Treliving? It’s the city? It’s the captaincy? That’s all noise coming from the player trying to paint such a toxic picture.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Brilliant idea!

All we have to do his find and surround Marner with McDavid/Mackinnon/Makar/Reinhart/Crosby and we're well on our way to getting that solution in action!

Try reading before you post, but I guess you're hell bent on becoming the laughing stock of this board so I won't stop you.

He's got a long way to go to catch dekes for that distinction.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Canada won the 4 Nations with him being part of the solution.

Mitch easily passed around a lazy Matthews who forgot to cover McDavid.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

The grievances are Marner camp origin. Oh, it’s Treliving? It’s the city? It’s the captaincy? That’s all noise coming from the player trying to paint such a toxic picture.

12 sleeps.

 

[Stephen]

Ah yes the 5 in 7 he had against florida was top tier

Not to mention the 3 in 7 last year vs Boston was the play of legends

And how can we forget about the 3 in 5 vs florida the time before..that was dynamite from 16

It would be a shame to not bring up his 4 in 7 against Montreal, that type of performance will be remembered for decades

I’ll toss in a 4 in 5 vs Columbus too, because I’m feeling extra picky

And we can’t end off without talking about his 4 in 7 vs Boston back in 2019, that’s where this all started!

Now it’s time for you to use “pp time/60 vs vezina goaltending that puts up >.930 in games on the road played at 7:45pm puck drops” as you thinking that’s proof that Marner wasn’t bad in any of them.

Looking at the way the Oilers flamed out in the finals, there have been loud criticisms against the likes of McDavid and Draisaitl for not showing up in the games that mattered. Even then there’s a fairly straight forward admission of failure and a comment about mission focus.

But what you don’t see is Draisaitl complaining about his historic underpay, why McDavid has the captaincy, how McDavid is going to go on a league wide free agency tour next summer, how they’ve been mistreated by Mark Spector and the Edmonton media or whatever mishandling the Oilers may have done before 2019 as some basis for future recriminations.

 

[MCR74]

The work you’ve done to try and diminish players like Mikko Rantanen, Brayden Point, Sebastian Aho and countless other players who make less money, have success in the playoffs in trying to establish Marner’s unassailable superiority has been exhaustive and exhausting and pointless.

All of this Marner maneuvering isn’t quiet at all. Dreger’s reporting of a long and drawn out league wide summer tour is Marner camp information. The grievances are Marner camp origin. Oh, it’s Treliving? It’s the city? It’s the captaincy? That’s all noise coming from the player trying to paint such a toxic picture.

Such a simple concept. I don't expect the Leafs to bend this time. Moaner isn't worth more than his current salary. If he wants to go on a wine and dine tour of the league, have at it, as long as it ain't here.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Still has the highest P/GP on the Leafs in the playoffs. Every single Leaf player is incapable of elevating in the playoffs, so why isn't this team stripping it to the studs and rebuilding?

You do realize that you have to include all the way back to the 17-18 playoffs to get him to be the highest?

Even at that, he is third at ES points, only one point ahead of Rielly, who has more goals.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Yes. He regularly goes up against cup finalists and Vezina-caliber goaltending, taking on matchup roles, and yet he consistently controls play and wins those matchups.

Ah yes, cup finalists and Vezina goaltending. Two of the many excuses for this core's poor performances

Who cares about offensive production when they win matchups!

 

[Egghead1999]

If "how to win" means bleeding a team dry, sure.

sry, you missed my point. He figures it out, but he does not willing to do it

 

[Stephen]

You do realize that you have to include all the way back to the 17-18 playoffs to get him to be the highest?

Even at that, he is third at ES points, only one point ahead of Rielly, who has more goals.

The other part of referring to Mitch Marner’s stats that’s overlooked: knowing the Leafs have been a failure and missed their playoff goals each and every year, those stats don’t represent a good playoff record so much as arguing about blame share. As in “look, he statistically did this, and what about the other guys?”

That’s not a guy you want to roll with.

 

[MCR74]

Ah yes, cup finalists and Vezina goaltending. Two of the many excuses for this core's poor performances

Who cares about offensive production when they win matchups!

I'm all for him facing top competition, it's the end result that isn't so hot.

 

[Egghead1999]

As the team stands, none of them are parts of the solution.
He could be with the right mix though, just like he could be on any number of teams around the league.
Canada won the 4 Nations with him being part of the solution.

It's too simplistic a view just to point to one thing.

He did not win the WJC. Anyway, correct me if I am wrong, was AM34 on the ice, waving his stick when MM made the pass?
You are right, though. he can be a SC winner when he is with the right mix, but I doubt he is one of the drivers.

 

[Trapper]

Perfectly reasonable view to take and I don't think there are many that don't believe that change is needed, the opinions on who/how vary.

If only those with the non stop, made up childish garbage posts that has littered these threads for the past year or so would be able to post something rational like that, the IQ of this place would increase dramatically.

Unfortunately years of playoff failures cause debates to become personal. One group wants to go one way and another group wants to continue the course. Then a third group just wants to cause chaos in the middle of the two.
No fan wanted to be here. I certainly didn’t want to be discussing starting over or radical changes 9 years later.

I’m not 20 years old. If this doesn’t work, I have to wait 3/4 years while they try to rebuild something around Matthews/Nylander? Then if that doesn’t work I have to what? Wait another 5 + years to rebuild a foundation again?

Things should have been actioned sooner, especially after Tavares signed with 4 forwards at half the cap and deficiencies behind them, draft picks should have been regarded with a little more thought, course correction should have been made during a flat cap Covid, etc.

So here we are now.

 

[Aashir]

Looking at the way the Oilers flamed out in the finals, there have been loud criticisms against the likes of McDavid and Draisaitl for not showing up in the games that mattered. Even then there’s a fairly straight forward admission of failure and a comment about mission focus.

But what you don’t see is Draisaitl complaining about his historic underpay, why McDavid has the captaincy, how McDavid is going to go on a league wide free agency tour next summer, how they’ve been mistreated by Mark Spector and the Edmonton media or whatever mishandling the Oilers may have done before 2019 as some basis for future recriminations.

yea I don't get how you can be mad at the team because of the previous regime when:

A) They are gone, you are dealing with the gm after that, and in some cases, the gm two times after that. Like forget about it

B) the previous regime literally lost their jobs for you (and the other 3). Dubas bet everything on this core year after year, even when it would've been easier for him to trade them. They kept lossing with the core 4, dubas kept losing and he stuck with them. Had they made deep runs idk if he gets fired lol. As for Shanahan...dude stuck by them even harder, giving the core 4 the call after dubas finally got fired to ensure their safety and hired a GM with the message of not dealing the core 4, so he brought in Tre. Once again they stunk it up and it cost Shanahan his job.

I sorta feel bad for Dubas and Shanahan, cuz they bet everything on the core and their trust was missued. Imagine dubas as the GM for McDrai (he would've overpayed their ass but still), they'd have rewarded his loyalty way more than our guys.

 

[notdoneyet]

The whiny whataboutism from Marner with regards to Matthews and Nylander is red flag to me and says so much about his maturity and character and lack thereof.

If he wanted to be respected as that special Leaf in his little speech to the fanbase, why not live that truth and be that special player, live up to the privileges the organization gave you. Accept the blame when things go wrong. Learn. Evolve. Overcome. Lead the team to success and prove you’re better than the other two.

But no, he’s gotta lash out, leak out drama, fight with the hometown and also punish the franchise that stood by him.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want him back but the childishness is just so fitting here and so loathsome.

How did he punish the franchise
What an idiotic take
Do you mean he wouldn’t accept a trade to somewhere he didn’t want to go because his wife was expecting their first child
If there is anyone to blame it’s the leafs themselves
By giving out NMC like Oprah giving out cars.
You get a nmc you get a nmc everybody gets a nmc

 

[socko]

Kessel never had a problem with post season production. 4 goals in 7 games with the Leafs. He just played on bad teams that didn't make the playoffs with the Leafs. He would have pulled off the playoff upset with the Leafs if Reimer hadn't gone full beach ball.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I honestly can't even believe Dekes is still here trying to defend this entire monstrosity.

Deke's admin team had the entire post elc contract era of this core. And they won (lol) two playoff series. An unmitigated disaster. Apparently the nonsense like "zone entries" and "p/60" that made them so bloody overpaid didn't translate well to success. Imagine that. Who could have seen that coming?

I'm just trying to imagine being THIS wrong and still trying to present yourself as the voice of reason.

I was critical of every single solitary thing this admin has done since the embarrassing cave to Nylander in 2018. But if I was wrong, I'd at least own it. If this team won a cup or two, I'd absolutely admit that "zone entries' and "p/60" ended up being very rational reasons to pay these guys so much money. I wouldn't say the team was just "lucky". I would acknowledge I was wrong.