Confirmed with Link: Mitch Marner Discussion Thread II - First Team All-Star

[notbias]

I’m just going to have to agree to disagree, and your analogy is erroneous for reasons that need not be stated, you seem intelligent.

Would you call Malkin a 40pt player currently? That's all he got last year, it appears he is only good for 40pts a year, right? He also got 28 the year before, he seems to be becoming a replaceable player.

Malkin went PPG, I'd call him an 80pt player still.

Batherson is another good example, 45pt guy? He put up 44 in 46 last year, career high for him.

 

[Dekes For Days]

your analogy is erroneous for reasons that need not be stated, you seem intelligent.

The analogy is not erroneous. It's representing something (production ability/academic intelligence) inaccurately by looking at the absolute accumulation of a measure (grade point total, raw point total) rather than the rate of accumulation of that measure (grade point average, point per game).

 

[Racer88]

Unsustainably scoring at a pace through 4 games =/= sustainably scoring at a pace through 72 games, with multiple connecting seasons of relatively similar production.

That’s all irrelevant. You cannot call a player a 100 point player if he has actually never done.
Matthews is a 60 goal scorer because he has actually done it..

 

[Antropovsky]

Here are all 8 of Marners playoff points. Maybe it's just my bias but for 11 million I find the points underwhelming. Maybe I'm just comparing him to Matthews, who looks like a beast in many of the plays.

- Game 1 primary assist Kampf Sh: Marner tries to clear puck and the Tampa player partially stops it but it takes a weird bounce to Kampf who scores on a breakaway.



- game 1 primary assist Matthews 2man pp: A uncontested pass to Matthews.


- Game 1 Marner goal: 4-0 goal. Good goal.



- Game 2 primary assist Bunting goal: ridiculous play by Matthews, big hit on Hedman then desperation stick to touch puck to wide open Marner. Good pass by Marner.



- Marner goal game 2: matthews wins face-off, and Marner gets a shot off from the point, the commentator said the shot "was hardly going anywhere". Marner actually looks like he fanned on the shot...but again Matthews is causing chaos in front and the puck goes in.


- Rielly goal, marner assist powerplay game 5 - good movement all around, matthews fires puck, puck deflects to Marner who shoots the puck and the puck deflects to Rielly who scores.



- Primary assist Marner game 5 - matthews backchecks and physically strips puck in neutral zone and Bunting passes to a wide open Marner, Matthews pivots straight from hit to offense and scores on 2-1 with Marner.



- secondary assist Rielly goal game 7 - Marner makes pass crossing blueline to Matthews, who makes a deft touch pass to rielly who joined the attack and scores.

Brayden Point game 6 OT goal - a bunch of bad plays by Marner.

 

[Racer88]

For 11 million he was absolutely underwhelming in this years playoffs

 

[mclaren55]

Would you call Malkin a 40pt player currently? That's all he got last year, it appears he is only good for 40pts a year, right? He also got 28 the year before, he seems to be becoming a replaceable player.

Malkin went PPG, I'd call him an 80pt player still.

Batherson is another good example, 45pt guy? He put up 44 in 46 last year, career high for him.

Is this a serious question? Malkin has already accomplished multiple 100 point and 40+ goal seasons. So it is relevant and correct to call Malkin a 100 point player. Are you being obtuse intentionally?

The analogy is not erroneous. It's representing something (production ability/academic intelligence) inaccurately by looking at the absolute accumulation of a measure (grade point total, raw point total) rather than the rate of accumulation of that measure (grade point average, point per game).

You missed the point of the original analogy. That’s alright, I’m not going to get into a long drawn out discourse over you’re misinterpretation.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You missed the point of the original analogy. That’s alright, I’m not going to get into a long drawn out discourse over you’re misinterpretation.

I didn't misinterpret anything. The original analogy did not work. My analogy does work, and I very specifically explained to you how it applies.

"X point player" is generally considered to be the amount of points one can reasonably be expected to put up in an 82 game season. Marner is a 100+ point player. To say otherwise would be incorrectly representing his offensive capabilities.

You cannot call a player a 100 point player if he has actually never done.

You quite literally can. People do it all the time. It's in fact more accurate in a situation like this.

 

[mclaren55]

You quite literally can. People do it all the time. It's in fact more accurate in a situation like this.

So theoretically, if Matthews had gotten 58 goals this season, you would be referring to him as a “60 goal scorer”?

 

[ToneDog]

Here are all 8 of Marners playoff points. Maybe it's just my bias but for 11 million I find the points underwhelming. Maybe I'm just comparing him to Matthews, who looks like a beast in many of the plays.

- Game 1 primary assist Kampf Sh: Marner tries to clear puck and the Tampa player partially stops it but it takes a weird bounce to Kampf who scores on a breakaway.



- game 1 primary assist Matthews 2man pp: A uncontested pass to Matthews.


- Game 1 Marner goal: 4-0 goal. Good goal.



- Game 2 primary assist Bunting goal: ridiculous play by Matthews, big hit on Hedman then desperation stick to touch puck to wide open Marner. Good pass by Marner.



- Marner goal game 2: matthews wins face-off, and Marner gets a shot off from the point, the commentator said the shot "was hardly going anywhere". Marner actually looks like he fanned on the shot...but again Matthews is causing chaos in front and the puck goes in.


- Rielly goal, marner assist powerplay game 5 - good movement all around, matthews fires puck, puck deflects to Marner who shoots the puck and the puck deflects to Rielly who scores.



- Primary assist Marner game 5 - matthews backchecks and physically strips puck in neutral zone and Bunting passes to a wide open Marner, Matthews pivots straight from hit to offense and scores on 2-1 with Marner.



- secondary assist Rielly goal game 7 - Marner makes pass crossing blueline to Matthews, who makes a deft touch pass to rielly who joined the attack and scores.

Brayden Point game 6 OT goal - a bunch of bad plays by Marner.

My only complaint is that for $11m, I'd like to see more in close out games but that applies to all 4 of our stars so full credit for his 8 points from me.

 

[The Iceman]

Some Marner love.
First back to back 1st team All Star for Toronto since...Tim Horton did it in a 6 team league.

In a 32 team league this is the begining discussion of a Hall of Fame worthy career.
Not many players go back-to-back 1st team in this era that are not in the HOF discussion .

 

[Antropovsky]

My only complaint is that for $11m, I'd like to see more in close out games but that applies to all 4 of our stars so full credit for his 8 points from me.

...... Matthews was physically noticeable on many of those plays. Marner was the recipient of the benefits of his teammates (most of the time Matthews) playing physical. On two of the goals, the goals don't happen without Matthews finishing his check. Another goal doesn't happen if Matthews isn't fighting for position in front of the goalie.

 

[Busher]

Some Marner love.
First back to back 1st team All Star for Toronto since...Tim Horton did it in a 6 team league.

In a 32 team league this is the begining discussion of a Hall of Fame worthy career.
Not many players go back-to-back 1st team in this era that are not in the HOF discussion .

This is the year where Marner has entered the conversation for eventual Hall of Fame induction. He has a long way to go, but now we can talk about him being well on track as a realistic candidate rather than just wishful thinking.

He’s been in the league 6 years, and he hasn’t wasted any one of them. He’s 25 next season and has a good amount of runway to strengthen his case.

Still need that cup though.

 

[Cleetus]

Marner is a great player happy to have him. but why do posters lie and say he is a 100 point player, when he has not done it. just sad lies guess to be expected by certain posters

 

[Dekes For Days]

So theoretically, if Matthews had gotten 58 goals this season, you would be referring to him as a “60 goal scorer”?

In the same number of games, yes, obviously. For the same reason McDavid wasn't a 40-point player in his rookie year.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Marner is a great player happy to have him. but why do posters lie and say he is a 100 point player, when he has not done it. just sad lies guess to be expected by certain posters

Guess it depends on how much stock you put into paces.

I mean Marner hit 97 points in 72 games. He would have easily eclipsed 100-points even with half of those missing games played.

But then if you want to argue he's a PPG player with like 60 points in only 60 games .. well there's more margin for error.

It's an argument in logic. A better way to phrase it is that Marner played like a 100-point player has he gotten more games in.

 

[notbias]

Is this a serious question? Malkin has already accomplished multiple 100 point and 40+ goal seasons. So it is relevant and correct to call Malkin a 100 point player. Are you being obtuse intentionally?


You missed the point of the original analogy. That’s alright, I’m not going to get into a long drawn out discourse over you’re misinterpretation.

now do Batherson, 45pt player? If you are taking the meaning as a literal definition of what the player has accomplished, guess your definition is right, just dumb.

 

[ToneDog]

Many called Kessel a 40 goal scorer but he has never scored 40 once in his career. Is he a 40 goal scorer ?

 

[Busher]

Guess it depends on how much stock you put into paces.

I mean Marner hit 97 points in 72 games. He would have easily eclipsed 100-points even with half of those missing games played.

But then if you want to argue he's a PPG player with like 60 points in only 60 games .. well there's more margin for error.

It's an argument in logic. A better way to phrase it is that Marner played like a 100-point player has he gotten more games in.

I think everyone agrees he’s more than capable of 100 points.

But as for whether he actually did it, 100 points is a milestone for a reason. Same with 50 goals. Maybe you need luck, maybe you need health. But it is what it is.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Here are all 8 of Marners playoff points. Maybe it's just my bias but for 11 million I find the points underwhelming. Maybe I'm just comparing him to Matthews, who looks like a beast in many of the plays.

- Game 1 primary assist Kampf Sh: Marner tries to clear puck and the Tampa player partially stops it but it takes a weird bounce to Kampf who scores on a breakaway.



- game 1 primary assist Matthews 2man pp: A uncontested pass to Matthews.


- Game 1 Marner goal: 4-0 goal. Good goal.



- Game 2 primary assist Bunting goal: ridiculous play by Matthews, big hit on Hedman then desperation stick to touch puck to wide open Marner. Good pass by Marner.



- Marner goal game 2: matthews wins face-off, and Marner gets a shot off from the point, the commentator said the shot "was hardly going anywhere". Marner actually looks like he fanned on the shot...but again Matthews is causing chaos in front and the puck goes in.


- Rielly goal, marner assist powerplay game 5 - good movement all around, matthews fires puck, puck deflects to Marner who shoots the puck and the puck deflects to Rielly who scores.



- Primary assist Marner game 5 - matthews backchecks and physically strips puck in neutral zone and Bunting passes to a wide open Marner, Matthews pivots straight from hit to offense and scores on 2-1 with Marner.



- secondary assist Rielly goal game 7 - Marner makes pass crossing blueline to Matthews, who makes a deft touch pass to rielly who joined the attack and scores.

Brayden Point game 6 OT goal - a bunch of bad plays by Marner.

I mean dissecting every one of his goals and assists and basing it on being star worthy plays is a bit.. misleading. Not every goal or assist has to be high calibre. And it also doesn't reflect play away from the puck, chances that aren't converted, or good defensive plays.

Not to suggest he was lights out of anything. He was great in games 1-3 .. but then tailed off just as Nylander/Tavares picked up the pace. Made some noise in game 5 setting up the winner too.

 

[JadedLeaf]

I think everyone agrees he’s more than capable of 100 points.

But as for whether he actually did it, 100 points is a milestone for a reason. Same with 50 goals. Maybe you need luck, maybe you need health. But it is what it is.

I can see both sides. I think some people take it to mean they are a 100 point caliber player while others take it to literally mean he's hit the 100 point milestone. I honestly think that's kind of where a lot of these arguments come from. Marner is absolutely a 100 point caliber player. Only reason he didn't shatter the actual milestone was because of the missed games.

 

[kb]

I think some people take it to mean they are a 100 point caliber player while others take it to literally mean he's hit the 100 point milestone. I honestly think that's kind of where a lot of these arguments come from. Marner is absolutely a 100 point caliber player. Only reason he didn't shatter the actual milestone was because of the missed games.

They are both right in their own way. One is more reflective of what would happen in a full season, while the other is raw production with zero context.

One is far more useful contextually than the other, however....

 

[JadedLeaf]

They are both right in their own way. One is more reflective of what would happen in a full season, while the other is raw production with zero context.

One is far more useful contextually than the other, however....

Your avatar is really making me want to bring back my Austin Powers and Auston Matthews merge I was rocking for the playoffs lol

 

[mclaren55]

In the same number of games, yes, obviously. For the same reason McDavid wasn't a 40-point player in his rookie year.

Ok, we just have different views then. I’m aware of the nuanced take you have and respect it, I just disagree.

For the record I fully anticipate Mitch becoming a 100+ point player, and he has value beyond raw point totals. Hopefully next year is the year they put it together.

 

[mclaren55]

now do Batherson, 45pt player? If you are taking the meaning as a literal definition of what the player has accomplished, guess your definition is right, just dumb.

Reality can be too much for some. No need to call my intellect into question over a disagreement. I was simply responding to something nonsensical you posted. I didn’t refute Batherson if you noticed, as I would agree he is a projected ppg+ player. Just like Marner is PROJECTED to be a 100+ point player.

You all say “context” when saying these guys are XYZ. Why not provide the context and use some words like “capable, projected, pacing, trending” etc? That provides all the context you need when referring to someone who is close to accomplishing something, yet haven’t.

 

[Antropovsky]

I mean dissecting every one of his goals and assists and basing it on being star worthy plays is a bit.. misleading. Not every goal or assist has to be high calibre. And it also doesn't reflect play away from the puck, chances that aren't converted, or good defensive plays.

Not to suggest he was lights out of anything. He was great in games 1-3 .. but then tailed off just as Nylander/Tavares picked up the pace. Made some noise in game 5 setting up the winner too.

The 5th goal where he was standing at center ice and got the gift pass for a 2-1 breakaway? That play was all Matthews again. The shot for a rebound happens often, I recently watched a ahl game and a journeyman ahler did the same play for a goal with more traffic though.

0 shots in game 7, giftes the OT winner to Tampa in game 6, scores 2 goals and one was a knuckle shot he fanned on that the broadcaster described as "barely moving".... handful of his points were gifts from Matthews. Doesn't go to the dirty areas.

His post seasons aren't going to improve unless he's willing to sacrifice himself a bit and go to dirty areas.