Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[Confucius]

Tre isn't dealing with Marner, he is dealing with his agent. And rest assured the agent will be talking to 31 other teams to gauge what teams are willing to pay. And the majority of fans hate Marner for no good reason. How much do you want to bet he goes to a team that wants him or at least the agent gets way more money from another team.

Someone needs to make a detailed list of teams that can afford Marner. He is going to get north of 13 million, just far north no one knows. I'd do it but kind of busy right now. But I bet his agent knows.

It’s not exactly clear to me what you are saying, but I would bet 1 month of posting in a leaf’s thread that he stays. We can start the month from the day following his signing, His agent may well get way more money than we offer but he won’t take it.

 

[francis246]

Oneill suggesting Marner mightve been thinking just of his own game when answering.

Thats a problem too for a assistant captain. Thinking about just your own game.

Anyway its spun, its a bad answer.

They also talk about how Marner doesn't just use NHL cliches to keep himself out of problem.

If Marner is this stubborn with the media makes one wonder how he is with coaches.

What?? I don’t know how you jump to the most extreme conclusions every single time. Marner isn’t good with the media so he’s bad with the coaches. That is a huge reach.

If this was true the coach would not play him in every situation. From everything we’ve heard Marner is good with coaches and his teammates but he definitely is defensive with the media. The two are not mutually exclusive.

does it really make one wonder that

Hahaha I want a deep dive into how his brain works. It’s fascinating, He draws the craziest conclusions out of no where. It doesn’t make any one wonder that LOL

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don't think they played bad enough vs Vancouver to warrant multiple TSN Drive guests breaking down the post-game comments of the Assistant Captain but I guess we were overdue for a crisis

We should have done better, we looked exhausted, we didn't generate much, and we didn't score, but for the first time in a bit, Vancouver didn't actually generate much either. And while it would have been beneficial to read the room a bit better, it's easy to see how Marner came to his response. It was a pretty even game by the skaters, which is better than we can say for our other games in the new year. Their line wasn't the issue in this game, and that line really has experienced every play going into their net over the past couple games. And the toxic question he was asked was about their effort, not their outcome. And while many fans are clueless and blame effort for everything, he's being honest that effort wasn't the issue. And he did note that they had things to work on.

The most hilarious part is that that is exactly the kind of game that many fans here have been clamoring for. Suffocate everything, play no event hockey on both sides, break even while tiring yourself out unnecessarily, and pray your goalie outplays your opponent's goalie. This is what that looks like. Berube hockey, everyone.

 

[ToneDog]

Yes, he is good. I think that most reasonable people agree. I just don’t want him at 13M or whatever it is if he can’t get it done in the playoffs. He can go to Columbus or Detroit for that price tag, teams that need to get to the playoffs consistently first before thinking about winning cups. He helps with that.

Gladly re-sign him at the right number even if we have to slightly overpay because we let Nylander f*** us a year ago, but it is no-go for me if his camp is asking for (guessing) somewhere between Matthews and Draisaitl money.

 

[francis246]

It’s not exactly clear to me what you are saying, but I would bet 1 month of posting in a leaf’s thread that he stays. We can start the month from the day following his signing, His agent may well get way more money than we offer but he won’t take it.

I used to feel that way too but I think Rantanen in Colorado is going to determine a lot. I also think ya Marner wants to stay but the longer it goes the more you start to think about whether the grass is greener.

If Rantanen hits the market I could see Marner dipping to go to Colorado tbh.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yes, he is good. I think that most reasonable people agree. I just don’t want him at 13M or whatever it is if he can’t get it done in the playoffs. He can go to Columbus or Detroit for that price tag, teams that need to get to the playoffs consistently first before thinking about winning cups. He helps with that.

Yup. I think this is a "what have you done for me lately" business and without getting into the career stats that have been posted before, I think most reasonable people would agree that Marner was worth nowhere near 9 million (never mind 13 million) in the last 2 playoff series he played. Play like a superstar in the playoffs this spring and I can see why people would be winning to gamble on him again, but committing to another huge deal before the playoffs would be madness and too much of a gamble for me.

That said, I don't think winning in the playoffs is high up on the priority list of those running the asylum so I expect Marner to be signed before long. There are enough fans who either don't care much about playoff success (or they're unsophisticated enough that they just don't realize how disappointing Marner's playoff performance has been) that management can get away with it. The average fan has fun watching Marner play during the regular season, and that's good enough. Sign Marner, some media guys with brains will criticize, the people with brains posting here will criticize but the money train will keep rolling along and because the team is a corporate entity, that's all that matters.

 

[666]

I suppose Tre had a choice, to the extent that he could have just sat him out, but other than that, no.

The coach uses him in most situations because he is good. That does not mean he is a 'superstar' or that he has no flaws. Which "professionals who do NHL for a career" agree with.

And again, I am not criticizing Marner, just the people (on both sides) who see him only in black and white, and consequently make Marner threads virtually unreadable.

Stop trying to fake being "reasonable" with your both sides nonsense.
No player is flawless and NO ONE has said he is. That straw man was your last strike.
"Good" players don't lead their entire team in ice time and THE (cup winning) professionals whose job it is, ACTUALLY make it happen.
You've clearly shown your bias while providing nothing of value to discuss so we're finished.
You may have the last word.

 

[francis246]

Yup. I think this is a "what have you done for me lately" business and without getting into the career stats that have been posted before, I think most reasonable people would agree that Marner was worth nowhere near 9 million (never mind 13 million) in the last 2 playoff series he played. Play like a superstar in the playoffs this spring and I can see why people would be winning to gamble on him again, but committing to another huge deal before the playoffs would be madness and too much of a gamble for me.

That said, I don't think winning in the playoffs is high up on the priority list of those running the asylum so I expect Marner to be signed before long. There are enough fans who either don't care much about playoff success (or they're unsophisticated enough that they just don't realize how disappointing Marner's playoff performance has been) that management can get away with it. The average fan has fun watching Marner play during the regular season, and that's good enough. Sign Marner, some media guys with brains will criticize, the people with brains posting here will criticize but the money train will keep rolling along and because the team is a corporate entity, that's all that matters.

The one thing people I think keep forgetting is that we could have a great playoff run and Marner is lights out and he still walks. I think that is an unlikely scenario but it’s still possible. Kipper, Bourne and Sammy McKee were talking about it yesterday. What if Marner has decided he’s had enough in this market and is gonna dip, how will leafs fans feel? They were suggesting his comments in the media have that sort of feel. We get so wrapped up in it’s the leafs making the final decision. But ultimately both sides have to agree. We could have situation where we have success have a great run and lose a good player. I just think as fans we better be careful what we wish for. And we better pray to God if we choose to move on we find the right replacements to make this team a winner.

 

[ACC1224]

The one thing people I think keep forgetting is that we could have a great playoff run and Marner is lights out and he still walks. I think that is an unlikely scenario but it’s still possible. Kipper, Bourne and Sammy McKee were talking about it yesterday. What if Marner has decided he’s had enough in this market and is gonna dip, how will leafs fans feel? They were suggesting his comments in the media have that sort of feel. We get so wrapped up in it’s the leafs making the final decision. But ultimately both sides have to agree. We could have situation where we have success have a great run and lose a good player. I just think as fans we better be careful what we wish for. And we better pray to God if we choose to move on we find the right replacements to make this team a winner.

The cries will quickly to switch from the Team is better off without him to how selfish he is for not allowing the team to trade him before walking.

Hopefully it won't come to that.

 

[Leaffan1991]

The cries will quickly to switch from the Team is better off without him to how selfish he is for not allowing the team to trade him before walking.

Hopefully it won't come to that.

JT on the island vibes

 

[Gary Nylund]

The one thing people I think keep forgetting is that we could have a great playoff run and Marner is lights out and he still walks. I think that is an unlikely scenario but it’s still possible. Kipper, Bourne and Sammy McKee were talking about it yesterday. What if Marner has decided he’s had enough in this market and is gonna dip, how will leafs fans feel? They were suggesting his comments in the media have that sort of feel. We get so wrapped up in it’s the leafs making the final decision. But ultimately both sides have to agree. We could have situation where we have success have a great run and lose a good player. I just think as fans we better be careful what we wish for. And we better pray to God if we choose to move on we find the right replacements to make this team a winner.

Sure, he could be lights out and walk, anything's possible, and any time a team makes a decision there is risk involved. I think signing him and him continuing to disappoint in the playoffs is a bigger risk but that's me.

If he's lights out in the playoffs, we'll probably win at least a couple of rounds and everyone will love him again. He'll be a hero in his hometown, he'll stand to make even more money in endorsements, hard to see him leaving under those circumstances.

IMHO the chances of him leaving are far greater if he sucks in the playoffs again and if that's the way it goes, we're better off spending that cap space elsewhere.

 

[ACC1224]

JT on the island vibes

Not sure. I think most Islander fans wanted JT to stay and were mad at him for misleading them.

In Marners case most would hate to see him leave but would understand him wanting to get away from all the idiocy surrounding this team.
Certainly be a shame if it comes to that.

 

[Racer88]

It’s kinda bullshit to use Covid as your sticking point all the time. The cap didn’t move because the world stopped. At the time the rogers deal was massive for hockey related revenue. The projections were there. Had it not been for covid the cap would have been way higher by now. The plan while very bold wasn’t crazy in 2019 because everyone in the NHL believed contracts were going up. Other teams were smart enough to quickly adjust once it was certain Covid would have long term effects on the cap, while leafs didn’t.

There is no gamble “again”.. the cap is going up unless we have something like Covid strike up again which is unlikely.

Or Trumps 25% tariffs put the word in a recession

 

[Nineteen67]

Sure, he could be lights out and walk, anything's possible, and any time a team makes a decision there is risk involved. I think signing him and him continuing to disappoint in the playoffs is a bigger risk but that's me.

If he's lights out in the playoffs, we'll probably win at least a couple of rounds and everyone will love him again. He'll be a hero in his hometown, he'll stand to make even more money in endorsements, hard to see him leaving under those circumstances.

IMHO the chances of him leaving are far greater if he sucks in the playoffs again and if that's the way it goes, we're better off spending that cap space elsewhere.

Everyone would love for Marner, Matthews and Nylander to step up and be dominate in a couple of series. One would think that if that ability was in their skill set, they would have already demonstrated it, since they haven’t, it’s still a big unknown and all of the questions and concerns around goaltending, defence, 3rd and 4th line don’t matter if those guys are not good enough.

I would say this has to be their last chance, but that’s been said for the past three years, so who knows.

 

[Gary Nylund]

In Marners case most would hate to see him leave but would understand him wanting to get away from all the idiocy surrounding this team.
Certainly be a shame if it comes to that.

You guys are funny. Perhaps you can explain what you mean by "idiocy"? Marner has been a playoff disappointment, I'd say it's objectively correct to be disappointed. Are we supposed to pretend that we're happy with our 1-8 PO series record when we're not happy at all? Are you happy with Marner's playoff performances?

Be a bigger shame to play in Toronto for 15+ years and never even come close to living up to your potential in the playoffs. Before the Pauls start yelling, that applies not only to Marner, but also Matthews and JT (even though JT won't be here 15 years). Nylander I'm leaving off the list because he's earned his pay so far in the playoffs, but he's held to a higher standard now so he needs to raise his game or he'll be on the list as well.

Marner's not the only one on my playoff shit list, but he's #1 on the list. Yell at me all you like, but he deserves to be there.

Everyone would love for Marner, Matthews and Nylander to step up and be dominate in a couple of series. One would think that if that ability was in their skill set, they would have already demonstrated it, since they haven’t, it’s still a big unknown and all of the questions and concerns around goaltending, defence, 3rd and 4th line don’t matter if those guys are not good enough.

I would say this has to be their last chance, but that’s been said for the past three years, so who knows.

By the time we drafted Matthews, I was almost certain that these guys would dominate in the playoffs not just in a couple of series, but many series over the next decade+. If you told me that 8 years down the line we'd be 1-8 in playoff series with these guys producing way, way below their regular season rate in the playoffs, I would have found that very difficult to believe.

My biggest disappointments in 50+ years of following pro sports is the refs killing us in 93, and this core so far falling flat on it's face in the playoffs. I care far more about the Leafs than anything else in pro sports and I find it difficult to express in words just how badly I feel these guys have let me down.

"I think we played well", sigh.

 

[Nineteen67]

You guys are funny. Perhaps you can explain what you mean by "idiocy"? Marner has been a playoff disappointment, I'd say it's objectively correct to be disappointed. Are we supposed to pretend that we're happy with our 1-8 PO series record when we're not happy at all? Are you happy with Marner's playoff performances?

Be a bigger shame to play in Toronto for 15+ years and never even come close to living up to your potential in the playoffs. Before the Pauls start yelling, that applies not only to Marner, but also Matthews and JT (even though JT won't be here 15 years). Nylander I'm leaving off the list because he's earned his pay so far in the playoffs, but he's held to a higher standard now so he needs to raise his game or he'll be on the list as well.

Marner's not the only one on my playoff shit list, but he's #1 on the list. Yell at me all you like, but he deserves to be there.

By the time we drafted Matthews, I was almost certain that these guys would dominate in the playoffs not just in a couple of series, but many series over the next decade+. If you told me that 8 years down the line we'd be 1-8 in playoff series with these guys producing way, way below their regular season rate in the playoffs, I would have found that very difficult to believe.

My biggest disappointments in 50+ years of following pro sports is the refs killing us in 93, and this core so far falling flat on it's face in the playoffs. I care far more about the Leafs than anything else in pro sports and I find it difficult to express in words just how badly I feel these guys have let me down.

"I think we played well", sigh.

I thought they would dominate, as well. That Easter game against Boston change my perception of who they are and they’ve done nothing to change it.
The question isnt “do they get it”? Rather it’s “do they have it”?

 

[Hallonbroder]

Just listened to the SDPN podd and their take on Marner… there’s some serious “we can’t say anything bad about him, what if we can’t interview him again?”-shenanigans going on, ugh.

 

[Gary Nylund]

In Marners case most would hate to see him leave but would understand him wanting to get away from all the idiocy surrounding this team.
Certainly be a shame if it comes to that.

Now that I think of it, there is a huge amount of people who seem to worship the ice Marner skates on no matter how badly he disappoints in the playoffs so you'd think he'd want more of that kind of idiocy, not less.

I thought they would dominate, as well. That Easter game against Boston change my perception of who they are and they’ve done nothing to change it.
The question isnt “do they get it”? Rather it’s “do they have it”?

My first moment of concern was the first time in Long Island with JT. That should have been enough to know that there is simply no fight in this dog.

Just listened to the SDPN podd and their take on Marner… there’s some serious “we can’t say anything bad about him, what if we can’t interview him again?”-shenanigans going on, ugh.

Seriously? That's just incredible, would be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous, and so sad.

 

[ToneDog]

The one thing people I think keep forgetting is that we could have a great playoff run and Marner is lights out and he still walks. I think that is an unlikely scenario but it’s still possible. Kipper, Bourne and Sammy McKee were talking about it yesterday. What if Marner has decided he’s had enough in this market and is gonna dip, how will leafs fans feel? They were suggesting his comments in the media have that sort of feel. We get so wrapped up in it’s the leafs making the final decision. But ultimately both sides have to agree. We could have situation where we have success have a great run and lose a good player. I just think as fans we better be careful what we wish for. And we better pray to God if we choose to move on we find the right replacements to make this team a winner.

If that is the case, why wait until July 1? Why not ask for a trade to a team that you are willing to extend with and that can give you an 8th year? Why take all this heat only to have the pressure of performing in the playoffs in April. when you normally wilt? Wilt again, and who is paying him $13m on July 1st. Sit down Kyle you idiot.

The fear mongering is reaching new heights.

 

[IPS]

Not sure. I think most Islander fans wanted JT to stay and were mad at him for misleading them.

In Marners case most would hate to see him leave but would understand him wanting to get away from all the idiocy surrounding this team.
Certainly be a shame if it comes to that.

Yeah probably makes 10x more in non-hockey business ventures than playing anywhere else. Omg poor Marner dealing with the idiocy surrounding the team.

What a f***ing joke

You guys are funny. Perhaps you can explain what you mean by "idiocy"? Marner has been a playoff disappointment, I'd say it's objectively correct to be disappointed. Are we supposed to pretend that we're happy with our 1-8 PO series record when we're not happy at all? Are you happy with Marner's playoff performances?

Be a bigger shame to play in Toronto for 15+ years and never even come close to living up to your potential in the playoffs. Before the Pauls start yelling, that applies not only to Marner, but also Matthews and JT (even though JT won't be here 15 years). Nylander I'm leaving off the list because he's earned his pay so far in the playoffs, but he's held to a higher standard now so he needs to raise his game or he'll be on the list as well.

Marner's not the only one on my playoff shit list, but he's #1 on the list. Yell at me all you like, but he deserves to be there.

He got paid more $1.8M more than his next best comparable on his last contract (Rantanen), makes probably insane money with sponsorships and other ventures thanks to the Toronto spotlight, and we literally had GM's who literally went out their way to call criticism of him "idiotic" after he flopped bad against Montreal.

How f***ing delusional can some people possibly be to think the alleged "idiocy" surrounding the team overshadows these things.

You can't even put it into words of how well this organization has treated Marner.

 

[IPS]

By the time we drafted Matthews, I was almost certain that these guys would dominate in the playoffs not just in a couple of series, but many series over the next decade+. If you told me that 8 years down the line we'd be 1-8 in playoff series with these guys producing way, way below their regular season rate in the playoffs, I would have found that very difficult to believe.

My biggest disappointments in 50+ years of following pro sports is the refs killing us in 93, and this core so far falling flat on it's face in the playoffs. I care far more about the Leafs than anything else in pro sports and I find it difficult to express in words just how badly I feel these guys have let me down.

"I think we played well", sigh.

We had analysts comparing our team to the 2009 Chicago Blackhawks. What a fall from grace it's been.

 

[francis246]

We had analysts comparing our team to the 2009 Chicago Blackhawks. What a fall from grace it's been.

All of that isn’t on the players alone. Look at the defense cores this management has built. Yes the stars have been subpar but the teams around them have been pretty trash if we are being honest. Even when they were on ELC’s too before the contracts. It’s on management just as much if not more than the players for the way the teams have been constructed.

Has there ever been a roster in Toronto were people legitimately felt we could win the Stanley cup? Maybe the Montreal series loss year? Or the year they beat Tampa? But that’s really it. 1 or 2 years out of 9

 

[Confucius]

I used to feel that way too but I think Rantanen in Colorado is going to determine a lot. I also think ya Marner wants to stay but the longer it goes the more you start to think about whether the grass is greener.

If Rantanen hits the market I could see Marner dipping to go to Colorado tbh.

I think everyone will be surprised when it’s d day, time to crap or move on. Today not even Mitch knows just how low he will go. He may think x amount is bottom line but we will see.

 

[ACC1224]

All of that isn’t on the players alone. Look at the defense cores this management has built. Yes the stars have been subpar but the teams around them have been pretty trash if we are being honest. Even when they were on ELC’s too before the contracts. It’s on management just as much if not more than the players for the way the teams have been constructed.

Has there ever been a roster in Toronto were people legitimately felt we could win the Stanley cup? Maybe the Montreal series loss year? Or the year they beat Tampa? But that’s really it. 1 or 2 years out of 9

Last time I liked this teams chance was 2002 when they lost to Carolina.

 

[Confucius]

The issue is that some posters don’t keep that same energy for other players and it’s evident by the amount of Marner threads there are. There’s been 3 threads for Marner in the last 4 months. No other player has had that many threads. Nylander hasn’t scored in 5 or 6, no one is in the Nylander thread making a stink about it. But if Marner was to be on a 5 game goal drought. You’d have some posters coming in here and saying, what a waste of 11 million of whatever. The criticism isn’t evenly distributed on this board for the top players no matter how much people try and lie and say that it is.

Whether people feel that’s Marner’s fault cause of the last negotiation is a different convo. But we need to stop pretending like he doesn’t get 5x more shit than Nylander, Matthews, Tavares and even Rielly.

Nylander is signed, 8 years nmc, some may cry for the whole 8 years, he is here. AM is here for 3 more, no changing that. JT is taking some heat the only real point up is how much less he will get, he also is not going anywhere.

So that only leaves Mitch who will be trying to get even more, and his situation is current. I would think if William,s deal was ending this year there would be just as much discussion as Mitch currently is getting. Once he signs to his new deal with a nmc, interest will move on to someone else, maybe Stolarz.