Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[Nineteen67]

We had analysts comparing our team to the 2009 Chicago Blackhawks. What a fall from grace it's been.

That was the hope.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

All of that isn’t on the players alone. Look at the defense cores this management has built. Yes the stars have been subpar but the teams around them have been pretty trash if we are being honest. Even when they were on ELC’s too before the contracts. It’s on management just as much if not more than the players for the way the teams have been constructed.

Has there ever been a roster in Toronto were people legitimately felt we could win the Stanley cup? Maybe the Montreal series loss year? Or the year they beat Tampa? But that’s really it. 1 or 2 years out of 9

I think 2019 was also a good year, especially with hindsight

It was the year of the underdogs, apart from us. No tampa, no pens, no caps, all teams just as hungry as we were.

We had an insanely deep offensive core, a stud number one goalie, and a near average dcore with Rielly muzzin leading the way. We fumbled that one too imo

Tbh we are built to score, the core 4 philosophy is to score, and the fact that they can’t do that is a big problem. We could’ve went all the way in 2022 too and no one would’ve batted an eye.

We have/had 4 players making half the cap, we were not built like a Carolina or an islanders who could get shut down.

If we lost series like 2017 Boston every year, I could buy the defence argument or goaltending being abysmal, but apart from that our offensive dries up when we need it, not the defensive core.

 

[Dekes For Days]

All of that isn’t on the players alone. Look at the defense cores this management has built. Yes the stars have been subpar but the teams around them have been pretty trash if we are being honest. Even when they were on ELC’s too before the contracts. It’s on management just as much if not more than the players for the way the teams have been constructed.

Has there ever been a roster in Toronto were people legitimately felt we could win the Stanley cup? Maybe the Montreal series loss year? Or the year they beat Tampa? But that’s really it. 1 or 2 years out of 9

I don't really know who was comparing us to 2009 Chicago. Early 2010s Chicago was one of the best teams of the modern era. And they had some pretty notable advantages.

1. They drafted an NHL goalie early, and their rebuild was elongated by drafting their elite forwards last. We basically didn't even try to draft goalies from 2007 until Woll in 2016; at which point we'd already drafted our elite forwards, got our franchise player, and the rebuild was over.
2. Leading up to their competitive era, they drafted really well in general, and accumulated a lot of internal NHL players. Our rebuild was shorter, we didn't have as many picks, and we didn't draft very well with the picks we had until 2018; when we were already in our competitive era. We also had the highest pick of our competitive era die.
3. They had a rising cap instead of a flat cap, which let them keep more of the depth they did accumulate.
4. They were able to circumvent the cap pretty extensively with multiple back-diving contracts that are now illegal, giving them even more cap flexibility.
5. A more favourable play-off system. The divisional format is stupid.

That said, there's been some level of cup potential every year we've had these stars. Worse teams have gone on a run and won. Though in terms of rosters with legitimate cup potential, 2020-2023 are probably the only years.

 

[Gary Nylund]

All of that isn’t on the players alone. Look at the defense cores this management has built. Yes the stars have been subpar but the teams around them have been pretty trash if we are being honest. Even when they were on ELC’s too before the contracts. It’s on management just as much if not more than the players for the way the teams have been constructed.

Has there ever been a roster in Toronto were people legitimately felt we could win the Stanley cup? Maybe the Montreal series loss year? Or the year they beat Tampa? But that’s really it. 1 or 2 years out of 9

Why are you making excuses for these guys? Putting the blame on the teams around them just lets them off the hook. These guys have not done their job and their lack of production is one of the main reasons, if not the main reason for our 1-8 playoff series record.

M&M&JT. Almost 35 million dollars in cap space for these 3 guys who production dries up in the playoffs. They go golfing, and we're left watching guys like Rantanen, Kucherov etc. tear it up and leading their teams deep and sometimes going all the way.

If these guys did their job and the team lost, nobody would be blaming them. Of course it's not "on them alone", but they're absolutely on the top of the list of people to blame. Just one more goal here and there would have made the difference in so many series we lost and had these guys been producing the way they do during the regular season, our PO record would be at least 8-8 or something like that instead of 1-8.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I think 2019 was also a good year, especially with hindsight It was the year of the underdogs, apart from us. No tampa, no pens, no caps, all teams just as hungry as we were. We had an insanely deep offensive core, a stud number one goalie, and a near average dcore with Rielly muzzin leading the way.

There was potential, but Gardiner's sudden back injury towards the end of that year really hurt us. Turned a top 4D into a bad bottom pairing defenseman.

 

[ToneDog]

Why are you making excuses for these guys? Putting the blame on the teams around them just lets them off the hook. These guys have not done their job and their lack of production is one of the main reasons, if not the main reason for our 1-8 playoff series record.

M&M&JT. Almost 35 million dollars in cap space for these 3 guys who production dries up in the playoffs. They go golfing, and we're left watching guys like Rantanen, Kucherov etc. tear it up and leading their teams deep and sometimes going all the way.

If these guys did their job and the team lost, nobody would be blaming them. Of course it's not "on them alone", but they're absolutely on the top of the list of people to blame. Just one more goal here and there would have made the difference in so many series we lost and had these guys been producing the way they do during the regular season, our PO record would be at least 8-8 or something like that instead of 1-8.

That's the $64000 question.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Boys boys boys...we know we over paid Mitchy and likely Willie
We have struggled in net for sure
But the real failure has been on d.
Reilly has not and is not a number one. And wasted 4 years praying Sandin and Lilly would be. We never came close.
Muzzin was a good 3...but no one else. And today still nobody.

 

[ToneDog]

Boys boys boys...we know we over paid Mitchy and likely Willie
We have struggled in net for sure
But the real failure has been on d.
Reilly has not and is not a number one. And wasted 4 years praying Sandin and Lilly would be. We never came close.
Muzzin was a good 3...but no one else. And today still nobody.

Brodie over Tanev was another Dubas special.

 

[francis246]

Nylander is signed, 8 years nmc, some may cry for the whole 8 years, he is here. AM is here for 3 more, no changing that. JT is taking some heat the only real point up is how much less he will get, he also is not going anywhere.

So that only leaves Mitch who will be trying to get even more, and his situation is current. I would think if William,s deal was ending this year there would be just as much discussion as Mitch currently is getting. Once he signs to his new deal with a nmc, interest will move on to someone else, maybe Stolarz.

i don;t believe that for a second

Why are you making excuses for these guys? Putting the blame on the teams around them just lets them off the hook. These guys have not done their job and their lack of production is one of the main reasons, if not the main reason for our 1-8 playoff series record.

M&M&JT. Almost 35 million dollars in cap space for these 3 guys who production dries up in the playoffs. They go golfing, and we're left watching guys like Rantanen, Kucherov etc. tear it up and leading their teams deep and sometimes going all the way.

If these guys did their job and the team lost, nobody would be blaming them. Of course it's not "on them alone", but they're absolutely on the top of the list of people to blame. Just one more goal here and there would have made the difference in so many series we lost and had these guys been producing the way they do during the regular season, our PO record would be at least 8-8 or something like that instead of 1-8.

I’m not even gonna dignify this with a response. No ones making excuses.

 

[Gary Nylund]

i don;t believe that for a second

I’m not even gonna dignify this with a response. No ones making excuses.

This comment sounded like that's exactly what you were doing, sorry if I misunderstood. I think management reasonably expected much more in the playoffs from M&M&JT and had they earned their pay in the playoffs, we would have won a number of series by now.

It’s on management just as much if not more than the players for the way the teams have been constructed.

 

[francis246]

This comment sounded like that's exactly what you were doing, sorry if I misunderstood. I think management reasonably expected much more in the playoffs from M&M&JT and had they earned their pay in the playoffs, we would have won a number of series by now.

It’s on management just as much if not more than the players for the way the teams have been constructed.

I’m talking in reference to the team not living up to the Chicago comparison.

The whole point when you have superstars is to win when they are cheap. That’s what LA did, that’s what Chicago and Pittsburgh did. Those GM’s surrounded the young core with quality players that could help elevate. The ELC years the young core of Nylander, Marner and Matthews performed well in the playoffs, the rest of the team wasn’t good enough, not even close during the ELC years.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I’m talking in reference to the team not living up to the Chicago comparison.

The whole point when you have superstars is to win when they are cheap. That’s what LA did, that’s what Chicago and Pittsburgh did. Those GM’s surrounded the young core with quality players that could help elevate. The ELC years the young core of Nylander, Marner and Matthews performed well in the playoffs, the rest of the team wasn’t good enough, not even close during the ELC years.

Yes, it's a shame that Marleau wasn't enough to put us over the top. Seriously though, I'm not sure this is accurate. I just looked up the stats for 1998, Marner had probably his best playoff ever with 9 points in 7 games but Nylander and Matthews had 6 points between them and I'd say that's nowhere close to good enough. The following season nobody managed PPG in the playoffs, the Marner/Nylander barely got there between the two of them so it's not like a better supporting cast would have meant we win some cups.

Anyhow, I wouldn't hold any team to the Chicago standard, but these guys should have a much better record than 1-8 and the core is at the top of my blame list.

 

[Mr_Fun]

We should have done better, we looked exhausted, we didn't generate much, and we didn't score, but for the first time in a bit, Vancouver didn't actually generate much either. And while it would have been beneficial to read the room a bit better, it's easy to see how Marner came to his response. It was a pretty even game by the skaters, which is better than we can say for our other games in the new year. Their line wasn't the issue in this game, and that line really has experienced every play going into their net over the past couple games. And the toxic question he was asked was about their effort, not their outcome. And whifans are clueless and blame effort for everything, he's being honest that effort wasn't the issue. And he did note that they had things to work on.

The most hilarious part is that that is exactly the kind of game that many fans here have been clamoring for. Suffocate everything, play no event hockey on both sides, break even while tiring yourself out unnecessarily, and pray your goalie outplays your opponent's goalie. This is what that looks like. Berube hockey, everyone.

Exactly. It was a very loaded and toxic question. He was specifically asked about the effort, not - "how well did you guys play". It wasn't a great answer given the optics, but he doesn't want to throw the team under the bus by implying they were lazy, either. Honestly, if Tanev had given the same answer, nobody would have batted an eye, methinks.

 

[ACC1224]

Exactly. It was a very loaded and toxic question. He was specifically asked about the effort, not - "how well did you guys play". It wasn't a great answer given the optics, but he doesn't want to throw the team under the bus by implying they were lazy, either. Honestly, if Tanev had given the same answer, nobody would have batted an eye, methinks.

Tanev said he liked the effort as well.

 

[Mr_Fun]

Tanev said he liked the effort as well.

But that's different.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Boys boys boys...we know we over paid Mitchy and likely Willie
We have struggled in net for sure
But the real failure has been on d.
Reilly has not and is not a number one. And wasted 4 years praying Sandin and Lilly would be. We never came close.
Muzzin was a good 3...but no one else. And today still nobody.

The failure has always been the core 4 not showing up in the postseason. Thats basically it.

They don’t score and the PP is utter dogshit and we end up losing game 7s 2-1.

They let us down every time the moment comes to truly earn their fat ass paychecks.

 

[Fogelhund]

The failure has always been the core 4 not showing up in the postseason. Thats basically it.

They don’t score and the PP is utter dogshit and we end up losing game 7s 2-1.

They let us down every time the moment comes to truly earn their fat ass paychecks.

Ya... this. Why we are arguing about contracts mid year is bewildering. The future of this team really has to be based on their playoff performance right? I mean finally? If they can't win this year, they really have to go in a different direction right?

 

[Gabriel426]

They didn’t “damage control” they just looked at the situation for what it was and didn’t overreact. In fact I think pretty much every major show, podcast covered it and had the same feeling. The whole quote isn’t bad. Cut up it’s pretty funny lol. Just you gotta know the audience.

It’s funny how we preach we want players to be completely honest in interviews but yet we want Marner to pander to what fans want to hear lol. They spoke about this on the SPDN. You can’t have it both ways as a fan and I think it’s a valid statement.

1. Nobody is complaining MM being honest or not
2. If MM is really honest, he is quite delusional and that’s a problem. Odog on Overdrive briefly touched on it and Hayes diverted right away. The problem is the mindset. They didn’t play well and not even close to good. But that’s just not MM rather it is the whole core.

 

[centipede2233]

Extending Reilly was a mistake, they needed to move on. Dubas did so much damage and somehow got a 100% pay increase and promotion from his 4 million dollar job. Makes me not even want to follow the nhl since it’s run by morons

 

[Gabriel426]

It’s not exactly clear to me what you are saying, but I would bet 1 month of posting in a leaf’s thread that he stays. We can start the month from the day following his signing, His agent may well get way more money than we offer but he won’t take it.

Why is MM’s choice the Leafs? What if another team(better than the Leafs) offer a similar contract?
I agree that when MM hits UFA, regardless of what happens in this playoffs, most if not all teams will want to sign him? And I really don’t think MM will not be open to signing with another team.
Both Stars and Avs have the cap space to offer MM 12-13mil deal. Would MM still signs with Leafs if the offers are similar, I really don’t know.

Last time I liked this teams chance was 2002 when they lost to Carolina.

Was that the year with Leetch on D?

 

[Mr_Fun]

Why is MM’s choice the Leafs? What if another team(better than the Leafs) offer a similar contract?
I agree that when MM hits UFA, regardless of what happens in this playoffs, most if not all teams will want to sign him? And I really don’t think MM will not be open to signing with another team.
Both Stars and Avs have the cap space to offer MM 12-13mil deal. Would MM still signs with Leafs if the offers are similar, I really don’t know.


Was that the year with Leetch on D?

Leetch came the next year -- 2003.

 

[Menzinger]

While some folks and fans definitely go over the top with criticism, I don't have much sympathy for the 'poor Marner ' stuff

In his own words he's described his time in Toronto as being treated "like a God". He won't get that level anywhere else.

The Leafs contract offer, regardless of what it is will make him one of the highest paid wingers in NHL history.

The entire core has been given everything they've asked from the team and fanbase, and more.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Ya... this. Why we are arguing about contracts mid year is bewildering. The future of this team really has to be based on their playoff performance right? I mean finally? If they can't win this year, they really have to go in a different direction right?

I honestly don’t see how they could possibly try to run it back again if we lose another 1st round series but wouldn’t be surprised either.

The biggest change I think we’ll see if that happens is we maybe let JT walk. Guaranteed we sign Marner for stupid money again.

 

[Gary Nylund]

While some folks and fans definitely go over the top with criticism, I don't have much sympathy for the 'poor Marner ' stuff

In his own words he's described his time in Toronto as being treated "like a God". He won't get that level anywhere else.

The Leafs contract offer, regardless of what it is will make him one of the highest paid wingers in NHL history.

The entire core has been given everything they've asked from the team and fanbase, and more.

Agree with every word, especially the bolded.

I honestly don’t see how they could possibly try to run it back again if we lose another 1st round series but wouldn’t be surprised either.

The biggest change I think we’ll see if that happens is we maybe let JT walk. Guaranteed we sign Marner for stupid money again.

I believe the decision to run it back has been made already, they just need Marner to sign for a number that won't be too embarrassing for them.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Ya... this. Why we are arguing about contracts mid year is bewildering. The future of this team really has to be based on their playoff performance right? I mean finally? If they can't win this year, they really have to go in a different direction right?

How many playoff performances before change. 2, 3, 4 , 5....hmmm
We decided last year not to go in different direction, Willie got rich. Do we give Mitchy a bus ticket. If we are prepared to do that under no circumstances can we trade Minten or Cowan for upgrade this yr.