Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[notDatsyuk]

I've got cake in front of me right now and am eating it. Although I wanted Marner traded so we get something back, I don't hate the player but how all this was handled. In 57 playoff games Marner put up 50 points and 3 game winning goals. 17 powerplay points. 2 shorties all on 145 shots. That is better stats than anyone else on the team, and the fans crucified him. I won't blame him for leaving now. Would you stay at a job where people hated you, even though you were the best worker? And the same people attacked you in the media relentlessly?

Fact: Marner has been our best playoff performer. Nylander had more goals but Nylander is a goal scorer and Marner is a passer. Marner still had more points. Mathews had more goals but he also took 235 shots. Marner still had more points. Nylander also had 167 shots. Overall, Marner has been better than both Nylander and Mathews.

The problem isn't with Marner in the playoffs, its with us the fans. We over react when shit doesn't go our way.

People bitch non stop about Marner choking in the playoffs. I don't know who started that bullshit but they are wrong and the stats prove it.

Stats also show that in about 15% more ES ice time Marner has 40% fewer goals and about 10% fewer points than Nylander, despite playing on the top line with Matthews. Yes, he gets lots of points on the PP and in earlier games.

 

[Hallonbroder]

Are you new to hockey? Scoring in the playoffs is much harder than regular season. And, he still out scored Nylander and Mathews in over all points....on 145 shots. So people are bitching about our best point scoring forward. It all started with the Marner hate because as a team, the Leafs failed miserably. And if he leaves, I won't blame him one bit for how all of the fans and media treated him. And he is clearly our most dynamic player by far and people will miss him when he walks....for nothing.

Answer my earlier question instead of- do you really think that Marners better than all those players I listed? And was it Toronto-based media that called him a top 5 player in the league?

 

[NMacrules]

Its funny everyone whining about Marner and his interviews. He gets nervous and says stupid things. Also, he might just be stupid. He is not well educated.

Stats also show that in about 15% more ES ice time Marner has 40% fewer goals and about 10% fewer points than Nylander, despite playing on the top line with Matthews. Yes, he gets lots of points on the PP and in earlier games.

And Doug Flutie had fewer catches than Jerry Rice. They are different players and Marner still has more points than Nylander or Matthews.

 

[ToneDog]

You guys are talking like there is a trade. Both players are free agents and can go to any team willing to pay.


You know there is not going to be a trade right? Both players are free agents and can go where ever they want.

Of course there is not going to be a trade. The Leafs will resign Marner. I just hope for everybody's sake, it is not an overpay.

 

[NMacrules]

Do you think the public wants to hear what Marner has to say after a bad loss or Simon Benoit or Connor Dewar instead?

Reporters and media need to drive traffic to their articles/reports to increase viewership.. Nobody on the planet cares what Simon Benoit thought about the Leafs efforts, nor place very much weight on his opinion overall. Heck if he walked out the Leafs dressing room and exited with the crowd many fans wouldn't even know who he was.

So of course it matters your status on the team and the spotlight chases those players.

The fact that Marner consistently makes himself look foolishly or confrontational when forced with questions from the media, well that's on him.

Mitch should get a reality check from his teammates and coach then, before going public again, coming off a mere 20 shot and 3-0 embarrassing shutout loss coming up with something closer to reality then ""I liked it. I thought we played well. I really did.".

Mitch Marner's Post-Game Comments Suggest He's Not Aligned With Leafs Players, nor Staff

Following the game, most of the Leafs admitted they were not good enough in any facet of their play with the effort level being the biggest concern.

Craig Berube and Chris Tanev were among those who spoke out publicly about the weak effort against the Canucks.
View attachment 960296

Maple Leafs head coach Craig Berube, who is not shy about holding his team accountable or offering praise when deserved, echoed Tanev's sentiments, albeit in his own way.

View attachment 960307

Together, these two statements, though worded differently, convey the same message: the team needs to improve its performance and take responsibility for their play.

Here is how the media works. In a loss they seek out the leaders. In a win they seek out who played well. Like Knies hatty for instance.

Of course there is not going to be a trade. The Leafs will re-sign Marner. I just hope for everybody's sake, it is not an overpay.

fixed it for you

 

[ToneDog]

But why are we paying Matthews "Draisatl" money when he has done nothing but shit the bed when it counted most? If you whip one dog for not catching the fox, than all dogs should be whipped for the same mistakes/non-performance. I know you see what I'm saying.

Because he is a unicorn and Leafs are scared shitless he will leave.

He has also won the calder, multiple rockets and a Hart, Marner has a Molson Cup. Which of the two would you pay $13m to?

 

[therealkoho]

It will be way worse than that.

At first it will be we told you so. Management (who they have always hated) has now finally done the right thing even though we all know that it will have been Marner's decision to leave.

Then, they will salivate at the $22M in cap that we save from Marner and JT proposing all sorts of nonsense trades / UFA signings for superstars that won't happen. Of course McDavid talk will be rampant but he's not potentially available for 2 years. Have you ever seen a GM sit on $15M waiting for a guy?

Then when we've overpaid three $5M guys (think Bertuzzi, Kadri) $7M they will cheer our new found "depth" not noticing that we replaced two guys with three.

Only after the results actually get worse and Matthews leaves will they turn on management, whine about "production" and "results" and the whole cycle again starts.

At least they are predictable.

Pastrnak Makes 11.25, signed it in the middle of his 60 goal campaign, rough season now, but he was 2nd in hart that year on an offensively more inept team than ours

MacKinnon, a vastly superior player made 12.6. Granted it was now 2 years ago he signed it but even still, Marner isn’t a better player so I can’t see 15% of the cap.

Like you said, rantanen would seal the deal for me. Whatever he makes, Marner should make 500k-1M less as he’s not as good.

Without him, I’d guess marners number starts at 12. Anything over is an overpayment, anything under is a good deal.

Using that logic Matthews should be paid much less than the far superior McJeebuzz, Draisatl and MacKinnon. But alas he's not and not because Tre was feeling benevolent but because he demanded he be the highest paid player in the league.

I'd like Marners contract to also start at 12 and over 8yrs term wise!

 

[NMacrules]

You can't have your cake and eat it. If Mitch wants all the money and no pressure, look for a team that never makes the playoffs, has a fan base that does not give a shit about results and an owner that is more interested in selling tickets and jerseys than winning. If you demand and get all the money, expect to be held accountable. He and the team have shit the bed in the playoffs every year since he bent Dubas over while the team throws players overboard for cap reasons and trades future assets to help them to get it done.


So be it but I doubt that is what happens. When the time comes, he will choose the money. Bank on it.

I agree he chooses money. And I bet there are a few teams out there willing to top a toronto offer.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Are you new to hockey? Scoring in the playoffs is much harder than regular season. And, he still out scored Nylander and Mathews in over all points....on 145 shots. So people are bitching about our best point scoring forward. It all started with the Marner hate because as a team, the Leafs failed miserably. And if he leaves, I won't blame him one bit for how all of the fans and media treated him. And he is clearly our most dynamic player by far and people will miss him when he walks....for nothing.

How much harder? In know the answer to this question, you obviously don't or you wouldn't be spewing this nonsense.

Hint - goal scoring in the playoffs drops off very little compared to the drop in Marner's production. But hey 145 shots, I'm sure that's relevant.

 

[ToneDog]

I agree he chooses money. And I bet there are a few teams out there willing to top a toronto offer.

Name one that is willing to pay him $104m over 7 years, with most of it paid in signing bonuses on July 1st. Personally I would rather see somebody else overpay him and this team forced to go in a different direction. I'm tired of the same rerun going on 9 years.

 

[NMacrules]

How much harder? In know the answer to this question, you obviously don't or you wouldn't be spewing this nonsense.

Hint - goal scoring in the playoffs drops off very little compared to the drop in Marner's production. But hey 145 shots, I'm sure that's relevant.

So me saying scoring in the playoffs drops off is nonsense? Ok then.

Name one that is willing to pay him $104m over 7 years, with most of it paid in signing bonuses on July 1st. Personally I would rather see somebody else overpay him and this team forced to go in a different direction. I'm tired of the same rerun going on 9 years.

that we can agree on.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

Using that logic Matthews should be paid much less than the far superior McJeebuzz, Draisatl and MacKinnon. But alas he's not and not because Tre was feeling benevolent but because he demanded he be the highest paid player in the league.

I'd like Marners contract to also start at 12 and over 8yrs term wise!

I don't get this mentality of "but what about x" or "X also had that done". It's used alot when discussing marner and always seems like deflection off the player. Moreover, just becausse we make a mistake with one player, doesn't mean we should make the same mistake with another. I think I've had to repeat that 10 times now because people think we have to do things the exact same with every player

If marner wants more than Rantanen, we should let him walk, it is as simple as that. Matthews had the excuse that there were no players being signed at the same time as him, but with marner there is a clear better player right with him.

Matthews also gets more say and power because he is the franchise cornerstone.

 

[ToneDog]

How much harder? In know the answer to this question, you obviously don't or you wouldn't be spewing this nonsense.

Hint - goal scoring in the playoffs drops off very little compared to the drop in Marner's production. But hey 145 shots, I'm sure that's relevant.

25-30 regular season goal scorer turns into a 16 goal scorer in the playoffs.

 

[NMacrules]

Name one that is willing to pay him $104m over 7 years, with most of it paid in signing bonuses on July 1st. Personally I would rather see somebody else overpay him and this team forced to go in a different direction. I'm tired of the same rerun going on 9 years.

Also Columbus and Calgary are near the cap floor. Ducks and Preds are right there also.

 

[therealkoho]

I'm fine with signing Marner if he has a good series. Ideally the Leafs have a larger sample size to evaluate in the postseason rather than 7 or 11 games.

If the Leafs lose again with the corps 4 and Marner leads the team in scoring again, how will they fare without his skill in the lineup going forward? Will they be better without him? Will Willy go into beast mode and not be stopped. Will 34 finally have a playoff that will set the league on its ear, or put in the usual lackluster 4g 1a over 7 games

 

[therealkoho]

Of course there is not going to be a trade. The Leafs will resign Marner. I just hope for everybody's sake, it is not an overpay.

Whatever it is it will be an overpay, because that's just how LeaFlanders roll!

 

[NMacrules]

How much harder? In know the answer to this question, you obviously don't or you wouldn't be spewing this nonsense.

Hint - goal scoring in the playoffs drops off very little compared to the drop in Marner's production. But hey 145 shots, I'm sure that's relevant.

Also 145 shots is very relevant considering Matthews had 235 and Nylander has 167. What would Marners points be like if he had 90 more shots. Remember, he is already points leader. Matthews and Nylander can't get any more. Its what they already did. 90 more shots and I'd guess between another 25 to 30 points. But we can both agree that it would be more if he has 90 more shots. The NHL keeps that stat so it is somewhat important.

 

[NMacrules]

If the Leafs lose again with the corps 4 and Marner leads the team in scoring again, how will they fare without his skill in the lineup going forward? Will they be better without him? Will Willy go into beast mode and not be stopped. Will 34 finally have a playoff that will set the league on its ear, or put in the usual lackluster 4g 1a over 7 games

I'd give you a thumbs up but got limited for Trolling Montreal. hehe

 

[ToneDog]

Also Columbus and Calgary are near the cap floor. Ducks and Preds are right there also.

$104/7=14.895m. Nobody is blowing their pay scale for Marner. I can see him going to CBJ or Ducks for $13mx7, but not the Flames who are at the beginning of a rebuild or the Preds who are in big trouble.

If he really wants to be a Leaf and regain some goodwill from some of this fan base, he'll sign for $12.5mx8=$100m. Everybody wins IMO.

 

[therealkoho]

I don't get this mentality of "but what about x" or "X also had that done". It's used alot when discussing marner and always seems like deflection off the player. Moreover, just becausse we make a mistake with one player, doesn't mean we should make the same mistake with another. I think I've had to repeat that 10 times now because people think we have to do things the exact same with every player

If marner wants more than Rantanen, we should let him walk, it is as simple as that. Matthews had the excuse that there were no players being signed at the same time as him, but with marner there is a clear better player right with him.

Matthews also gets more say and power because he is the franchise cornerstone.

Franchise cornerstone? Why, he's never produced in the playoffs? He seems to be injury prone and misses quite a few games. Sure I love all the goals I mean who doesn't, but there are holes in his overall game.

Marner plays all facets of the game and all of them at an elite level. So in that he gives a lot more to the team, so shouldn't he be considered the cornerstone?

 

[GoonieFace]

Also 145 shots is very relevant considering Matthews had 235 and Nylander has 167. What would Marners points be like if he had 90 more shots. Remember, he is already points leader. Matthews and Nylander can't get any more. Its what they already did. 90 more shots and I'd guess between another 25 to 30 points. But we can both agree that it would be more if he has 90 more shots. The NHL keeps that stat so it is somewhat important.

He obviously doesn’t shoot enough in general, but saying if he had more shots he would get more points, is kind of a silly argument.He isn’t getting as many shots, because he is easily neutralized.

It’s like saying if more of Nylanders and Matthews shots went in the net they would have more goals.

 

[NMacrules]

$104/7=14.895m. Nobody is blowing their pay scale for Marner. I can see him going to CBJ or Ducks for $13mx7, but not the Flames who are at the beginning of a rebuild or the Preds who are in big trouble.

If he really wants to be a Leaf and regain some goodwill from some of this fan base, he'll sign for $12.5mx8=$100m. Everybody wins IMO.

He won't though. He is greedy and its not the first time he held out. His agent gets what he wants or Marner goes elsewhere.

 

[NMacrules]

He obviously doesn’t shoot enough in general, but saying if he had more shots he would get more points, is kind of a silly argument.He isn’t getting as many shots, because he is easily neutralized.

It’s like saying if more of Nylanders and Matthews shots went in the net they would have more goals.

Florida and Boston both targeted Marner with a strategy that Marner would have not as many oportunities to pass to Matthews, who is the big danger for scoring goals, and Marner still assisted on 78% of Matthews playoff goals, hence the strategy. Either way, Marner still has more points that Nylander or Matthews.

So most people blaming Marner doesn't make much sense, since he is our playoff leader in points.

 

[Gabriel426]

He won’t be leaving, the only thing up for debate is how much he is worth. He has as much a chance of leaving as the Leafs do in relocating to Hamilton.

He’ll take less to stay, Tre just has to call his bluff.

Honestly, I don’t know.

Just playing the Devil’s advocate here.
If it is another first round loss. Why won’t he wants to leave. Heck, same can be said about the other Core too.

The Core 5 must either be completely stupid and dumb or really just don’t care as long as they are getting paid or both in choosing to live and die with the Leafs.

I just don’t understand why someone like MM or AM or Willie would want to stay with the Leafs if they continue to collectively choke in the playoffs. Esp if they have options to play elsewhere. Like if Avs decides not to resign Rantanen and go after MM, why would MM wants to resign with the Leafs if money/contract is about the same. Same can applies to Willie and AM, if Avs wants to go after those two via trades, would they really not waive their NMC or NTC?
Stars is another team with cap space as Benn’s contract will expire this summer.

Both Stars and Avs are better equipped to win the Cup than the current Leafs. And none of them will be playing the role of leader but rather a supporting player like Eichel with the Knights. In a way, they are getting paid without the responsibility of being the leader, which is who they are at this moment.

I really can’t see why they would say No and stay with the Leafs if Stars and Avs come knocking.

 

[NMacrules]

He obviously doesn’t shoot enough in general, but saying if he had more shots he would get more points, is kind of a silly argument.He isn’t getting as many shots, because he is easily neutralized.

It’s like saying if more of Nylanders and Matthews shots went in the net they would have more goals.

Its not really the same. Nylanders and Matthews point totals are already in. 90 shots were the difference. But either way, fans are wrong for blaming Marner for playoff failure when in fact it is a team failure. People picking on Marner when Marner is in fact our best playoff performer is ridiculous.

Honestly, I don’t know.

Just playing the Devil’s advocate here.
If it is another first round loss. Why won’t he wants to leave. Heck, same can be said about the other Core too.

The Core 5 must either be completely stupid and dumb or really just don’t care as long as they are getting paid or both in choosing to live and die with the Leafs.

I just don’t understand why someone like MM or AM or Willie would want to stay with the Leafs if they continue to collectively choke in the playoffs. Esp if they have options to play elsewhere. Like if Avs decides not to resign Rantanen and go after MM, why would MM wants to resign with the Leafs if money/contract is about the same. Same can applies to Willie and AM, if Avs wants to go after those two via trades, would they really not waive their NMC or NTC?
Stars is another team with cap space as Benn’s contract will expire this summer.

Both Stars and Avs are better equipped to win the Cup than the current Leafs. And none of them will be playing the role of leader but rather a supporting player like Eichel with the Knights. In a way, they are getting paid without the responsibility of being the leader, which is who they are at this moment.

I really can’t see why they would say No and stay with the Leafs if Stars and Avs come knocking.

This is a good post. Agreed.