Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
31,282
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Ah okay, so playoff hockey starts immediately at game 5.

Anything to back this up or did you just make this up to hate on Marner?

I am not sure I've ever seen you use anything but feelings in posts.

And yes, I always use Kucherov because it is an extreme example and no one has pointed out how it is relevant for Marner and not for Kucherov.
You seem upset, take it easy. It's only hockey, not life and death.

Maybe it's all just a big coincidence. But maybe (as many have said) Marner just isn't effective when the games get tighter and he doesn't have time and space to operate and that's why he's only productive for the first few games. It's not that playoffs "starts immediately at game 5", it's that it does take a few games to settle in to playoff style hockey and the first few games of the playoff look more like regular season hockey than games in the 2nd round and so on.

Anything to back this up - I could ask you the same question. Kucherov, that's all you got LOL. And for some reason, game 7 is all that matters, never mind the rest of the playoffs after the first 4 games and all the clutch performances he's had in the playoffs. A whole league full of players, and all you have is Kucherov game7, that should tell you how weak your argument is.

The numbers have been posted many times, But to you they're just feelings eh? LOL.
 

notbias

Registered User
Feb 16, 2017
12,176
10,099
You seem upset, take it easy. It's only hockey, not life and death.

The projection is interesting.

Maybe it's all just a big coincidence. But maybe (as many have said) Marner just isn't effective when the games get tighter and he doesn't have time and space to operate and that's why he's only productive for the first few games. It's not that playoffs "starts immediately at game 5", it's that it does take a few games to settle in to playoff style hockey and the first few games of the playoff look more like regular season hockey than games in the 2nd round and so on.

Anything to back this up - I could ask you the same question. Kucherov, that's all you got LOL. And for some reason, game 7 is all that matters, never mind the rest of the playoffs after the first 4 games and all the clutch performances he's had in the playoffs. A whole league full of players, and all you have is Kucherov game7, that should tell you how weak your argument is.

The numbers have been posted many times, But to you they're just feelings eh? LOL.

Again, only feelings, nothing of substance, you can carry on if you want, but I can't argue against your feelings, no matter how irrational.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
31,282
24,747
The projection is interesting.

Again, only feelings, nothing of substance, you can carry on if you want, but I can't argue against your feelings, no matter how irrational.
LOL feelings. You can live in denial if you like, that's your choice but the numbers are public record. Marner chugs along for the first 4 games of the playoffs at his usual pace, then his production drops off a cliff. Sorry if that hurts your feeling but the facts are what they are.
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
42,593
13,006
Yeah you can break up the MM AM line anytime now. We have virtually no team success since WN and AM we're split for MM AM to be reunited. They were good for 1.5 games and it's gone.
 
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Lightsol

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
5,369
3,379
No one is making excuses, I am questioning how people discuss specific players because it only seems to sometimes apply.

Does someone carry Kucherov to championships?
Better question; how come none of this logic EVER seems to apply to either Matthews or Nylander?

I'm still stunned that the entire Boston series was blamed on Marner when he was the only one of the three amigos to PLAY THE WHOLE DAMNED SERIES...
 

Anthrax442

Registered User
Aug 4, 2008
16,084
8,695
Toronto
www.russianroulette.ca
You seem upset, take it easy. It's only hockey, not life and death.

Maybe it's all just a big coincidence. But maybe (as many have said) Marner just isn't effective when the games get tighter and he doesn't have time and space to operate and that's why he's only productive for the first few games. It's not that playoffs "starts immediately at game 5", it's that it does take a few games to settle in to playoff style hockey and the first few games of the playoff look more like regular season hockey than games in the 2nd round and so on.

Anything to back this up - I could ask you the same question. Kucherov, that's all you got LOL. And for some reason, game 7 is all that matters, never mind the rest of the playoffs after the first 4 games and all the clutch performances he's had in the playoffs. A whole league full of players, and all you have is Kucherov game7, that should tell you how weak your argument is.

The numbers have been posted many times, But to you they're just feelings eh? LOL.

Too soft for playoffs
 
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francis246

Registered User
Nov 16, 2007
14,769
18,348
This time it will work or maybe next year for sure we just need the right supporting cast around these superstars

I don't know why you and others downplay the role of depth and support players. Tampa does not win their cups without their 3rd and 4th lines. Same with Chicago (Versteeg, Bickell, Bolland, Hjalmarsson), Los Angeles (Toffoli, Stoll, Justin Williams, Martinez, Pearson), Florida (Rodrigues, Bennett, Lundell, Tarasenko, Ekman-Larsson). You can list out every winner and see how vital of a role the depth players also played.

Yeah the big boys also put up their points but Tampa's , Florida's, Chicago's, Los Angeles, Pittsburghs, whoever you wanna reference's depth lines were out of this world. It has nothing to do with the cap, it has everything to do with they identified the right players to fill those roles, they paid a premium for those types of guys and the rest were drafted and developed. Finding the right supporting cast around the guys is essential to winning the cup. Having your superstars produce at the highest level possible is also essential to winning the cup. The leafs have gotten neither, hence why they have not even sniffed the third round.
 

Anthrax442

Registered User
Aug 4, 2008
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Toronto
www.russianroulette.ca
This time it will work or maybe next year for sure we just need the right supporting cast around these superstars

giphy.webp
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
42,593
13,006
I don't know why you and others downplay the role of depth and support players. Tampa does not win their cups without their 3rd and 4th lines. Same with Chicago (Versteeg, Bickell, Bolland, Hjalmarsson), Los Angeles (Toffoli, Stoll, Justin Williams, Martinez, Pearson), Florida (Rodrigues, Bennett, Lundell, Tarasenko, Ekman-Larsson). You can list out every winner and see how vital of a role the depth players also played.

Yeah the big boys also put up their points but Tampa's , Florida's, Chicago's, Los Angeles, Pittsburghs, whoever you wanna reference's depth lines were out of this world. It has nothing to do with the cap, it has everything to do with they identified the right players to fill those roles, they paid a premium for those types of guys and the rest were drafted and developed. Finding the right supporting cast around the guys is essential to winning the cup. Having your superstars produce at the highest level possible is also essential to winning the cup. The leafs have gotten neither, hence why they have not even sniffed the third round.

It takes cap to get the good depth. If not you have to grow it in house.

Marner was clenching his stick to end the game last night. Maybe a sign of what is to come games 5 6 7 in a 2025 playoff.

MM and AM are not playing well 5v5. They need to get him back with JT.

Liked the @Gary Nylund lines..

KAD
_JM
PMN
 

Racer88

Registered User
Sep 29, 2020
12,359
12,335
I don't know why you and others downplay the role of depth and support players. Tampa does not win their cups without their 3rd and 4th lines. Same with Chicago (Versteeg, Bickell, Bolland, Hjalmarsson), Los Angeles (Toffoli, Stoll, Justin Williams, Martinez, Pearson), Florida (Rodrigues, Bennett, Lundell, Tarasenko, Ekman-Larsson). You can list out every winner and see how vital of a role the depth players also played.

Yeah the big boys also put up their points but Tampa's , Florida's, Chicago's, Los Angeles, Pittsburghs, whoever you wanna reference's depth lines were out of this world. It has nothing to do with the cap, it has everything to do with they identified the right players to fill those roles, they paid a premium for those types of guys and the rest were drafted and developed. Finding the right supporting cast around the guys is essential to winning the cup. Having your superstars produce at the highest level possible is also essential to winning the cup. The leafs have gotten neither, hence why they have not even sniffed the third round.
Do you think maybe all those cup teams that you have mentioned were able to identify those excellent support players and pay for them because they didn’t have 4 forwards taking 50% of the cap.
Yes we have made a few poor choices on supporting players but Dubas was unable to identify and pay for the correct choice’s and now it looks like Tre is going down the same route. The only common denominator is the 4 core forwards and Reilly.
 

Darcy Tucker

My Name is Bob
Mar 23, 2008
7,957
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Vaughan, Ontario
LOL feelings. You can live in denial if you like, that's your choice but the numbers are public record. Marner chugs along for the first 4 games of the playoffs at his usual pace, then his production drops off a cliff. Sorry if that hurts your feeling but the facts are what they are.
Imagine that was your own reputation your entire life. Then woke up and realize not everyone is Mr. Game 7 Justin Williams who I once made a road hockey save on, but to be Nik Borschevsky. Win a series as a winger for many men's. And wake up in obscurity talking about m and ms and who Mitch likes to play with.

I'd call that a night mare Gary.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
31,282
24,747
Imagine that was your own reputation your entire life. Then woke up and realize not everyone is Mr. Game 7 Justin Williams who I once made a road hockey save on, but to be Nik Borschevsky. Win a series as a winger for many men's. And wake up in obscurity talking about m and ms and who Mitch likes to play with.

I'd call that a night mare Gary.
Don't get distracted by the game 7 nonsense. See the numbers below, consider that in addition to this, Marner continued to be ineffective the one time we got past the 1st round.

To this point in his career, Marner produces at close to a 100 point pace until the first 4 games of the playoffs are in the books, then his production goes down from close to a 100 point pace to close to a 40 point pace.

Games 1-4: 37 pts in 31 gp (98 point pace over 82 games)

Games 5-7: 8 pts in 17 gp (39 point pace over 82 games)

These are the facts, and after 8 years, the sample size isn't that small anymore. So why does this happen? Here are 4 possibilities:

1)
Playoff hockey is different from regular season hockey. I think this is accepted by everyone to be a simple truth and perhaps Marner's game just isn't suited to playoff hockey. He puts up points the first few games because players don't flip a switch when the playoffs start, it takes a few games for the players to adjust to a different style of play but once they do, Marner's no longer effective.

2)
It's a mental thing. Marner can't handle the pressure, and folds when the stakes are the highest.

3)
It's just coincidence, and going forward there is no reason to believe that Marner's production will continue to drop off a cliff after 86 games.

4)
Some other reason that I can't think of.

I don't know the answer but as always, I'm open to ideas. I used to think that it's #2, now I'm leaning towards #1 which many others have said is the issue. #3 seems far-fetched but if you have ideas for #4, I'm all ears. But if #1 or #2 is the answer, then a reasonable question seems to be this - for a team that wants to win the cup, how much cap space are you comfortable allocating to a player who goes from a 100 point player to a 40 point player once 86 games are in the books?

Edit - I'd actually say that a combination of 1/2 is the answer. I say that because of the Florida series. Game 3 was huge. Down 2-0 so win and you're right back in it, lose and the season's as good as over so the biggest game of the years IMO and Marner played the worst playoff game of his career and looked like a mediocre Marlie playing his first NHL game, fumbling the puck all over the place. Game 4, down 3-0 it's as good as over, nobody expects anything any more so the pressure is off and Marner looked pretty good in that one. I can't see into his head but it sure seems like his mental game is possibly an issue as well. So mostly #1, but a little bit of #2 as well.

I really hope I'm wrong though and #3 is the answer. Marner sucking for the first 4 games of the playoffs, then waking up, leading us to the finals with a Conn Smythe type performance, now that would be like a dream come true. Hard to see it happening, but I've probably never hoped to be wrong as badly as I'm hoping to be wrong about this one.
 
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ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
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It takes cap to get the good depth. If not you have to grow it in house.

Marner was clenching his stick to end the game last night. Maybe a sign of what is to come games 5 6 7 in a 2025 playoff.

MM and AM are not playing well 5v5. They need to get him back with JT.

Liked the @Gary Nylund lines..

KAD
_JM
PMN
You think some people would understand this after the last 6 years. Paying Mitch $13m and running this core back is doing the same thing and expecting different results. If you have to bring Mitch back, then move/replace Rielly with Ekblad or Chychrun or a better dman.
 
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hullsy47

Registered User
Dec 7, 2005
6,577
1,219
I’m not paying Mitch more than 13.1 on the cap. Cap % is the universal negotiation standard now in the NHL for top players at least. It is what it is. So if that’s what Nylander got I don’t give him 0.001% more.
U could pay kadri and ROR the money u pay for 1 marner
I think I'd take that in heartbeat
 
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ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
77,149
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It’s fascinating that some still want rid of the guy who shows up every night and want to go to war with the other two who show up when they feel like it, which isn’t often enough.
 

notbias

Registered User
Feb 16, 2017
12,176
10,099
This time it will work or maybe next year for sure we just need the right supporting cast around these superstars

It has worked in a lot of series, people just seem to ignore them.

It takes cap to get the good depth. If not you have to grow it in house.

Marner was clenching his stick to end the game last night. Maybe a sign of what is to come games 5 6 7 in a 2025 playoff.

MM and AM are not playing well 5v5. They need to get him back with JT.

Liked the @Gary Nylund lines..

KAD
_JM
PMN

Our goalies are $3 million... how much are the stars overpaid compared to Florida's? Is it more than 11 million? Cause that is the difference in goaltenders.

Seems like they should be able to find depth the same way Florida did.

Just so you know, the top 4 forwards + goaltenders for each team have similar cap (think it was $48 vs $50 million)
 

Leafsfan74

Registered User
Jul 2, 2018
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It’s fascinating that some still want rid of the guy who shows up every night and want to go to war with the other two who show up when they feel like it, which isn’t often enough.
The cap structure just doesn't work. Also, he shows up when against fast, relatively loose checking teams. When the game gets in the mud, he and others shrink.

The fact is the cap structure will never work with so much tied up in four forwards.
 
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notbias

Registered User
Feb 16, 2017
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The camp structure just doesn't work. Also, he shows up when against fast, relatively loose checking teams. When the game gets in the mud, he and others shrink.

The fact is the cap structure will never work with so much tied up in four forwards.

Is Florida not a contender?

They have 48 million tied up in 4 forwards + goaltenders.

We have 50 million tied up in the same.

We have the same money for depth and D spending.

Tell me how these "facts" don't apply to Florida.
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
77,149
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The camp structure just doesn't work. Also, he shows up when against fast, relatively loose checking teams. When the game gets in the mud, he and others shrink.

The fact is the cap structure will never work with so much tied up in four forwards.
Having an issue with the cap structure is fair. The spotlight for fixing it is misplaced.
 

Leafsfan74

Registered User
Jul 2, 2018
5,489
5,858
Is Florida not a contender?

They have 48 million tied up in 4 forwards + goaltenders.

We have 50 million tied up in the same.

We have the same money for depth and D spending.

Tell me how these "facts" don't apply to Florida.
Ok let me correct that, "you need to apply it to the rights KINDS of forwards" and even then it is a game of chance. Cups aren't won on sheer talent alone.

Back to back Finals and a Cup for the Panthers confirms they did well. The stats of their top players were excellent last year. They delivered the money.

The Leafs are a franchise that hasn't even been to the Finals in almost 60 years. That is just an incredible stat. Even if I were trying, say, taking leftovers as Vegas did in their first year (and made the Finals, LOL), I couldn't replicate such a record.

Unlike in the regular season where process is vital, especially if you are a playoff team and this is all just auditioning and rehearsing; in the playoffs ALL that matters is results. When people look at the Cup winners, they don't ask how. Panthers could have lost to the Bruins (in their record regular season year as it were) when down 3-1 in the First Round but came back. It changes everything.

I know they are going to re-sign Marner and I know that this core will not win a Cup. I've said my opinion as to why a long time ago, it was solidified after the Habs loss. I would have pushed to get rid of two of the core at that point and Reilly would not have been re-signed. I remember making a lengthy, passionate argument for the Leafs pursuing Petrioangelo (with the assumption, Reilly would be left to walk), obviously I'm not the GM. I wanted Bennett too when he was available. Both have since won the Cup (a second for Petro)

My only hope is that they don't offer a NTC. I know this franchise very well and I know business fairly well, especially when short sighted for profits and the path of least resistance executives take. He will be re-signed for a big number. Leafs will continue to not win a Cup. It isn't solely on Marners shoulders, far from it, but he is the person facing criticism primarily due to the timing of his contract.

I'd love to be wrong I assure you. After you've watched sports for such a length of time, reach a certain age, you don't fool yourself (at least not as much) in life anymore. Marner is a great talent, but teams know how to shut him and the rest of the core down, with higher success than one would expect. They simply don't have the inner beast to break through this, even in a UFA contract year.
 
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