Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[francis246]

Even pros made videos that it was Marner that messed up. Totally absolved Nylander, ffs Nylander was a million miles away from the play to begin with.

Don't forget the waaaah waaaah wahhh video of marner avoiding the corner because of his ankle I am guessing? Then circling back around and giving a love check to that big bad Bruin. Don't forget all the corsi floaters from way out too.

I'm not absolving Marner of all blame, he was completely puck watching, he needs to more aware. But if one part of the system fails the others cannot stand there and not do anything about it. and that;s the issue with this team in the playoffs. Everyone has the it's not my responsibility issue. If Marner's man sneaks in behind him, other players have to step and I would expect the same for Marner. That's what being a 5 man unit is about. That play was a failure on our system as a whole. Marner puck watching allows Pastrnak to slip through back door. Rielly is up high on a cross ice dump in for God knows what reason and is caught flat footed. Nylander doesn't back check at all, just watches and assumes Rielly will make a play there. We can't have that.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I'm not absolving Marner of all blame, he was completely puck watching, he needs to more aware. But if one part of the system fails the others cannot stand there and not do anything about it. and that;s the issue with this team in the playoffs. Everyone has the it's not my responsibility issue. If Marner's man sneaks in behind him, other players have to step and I would expect the same for Marner. That's what being a 5 man unit is about. That play was a failure on our system as a whole. Marner puck watching allows Pastrnak to slip through back door. Rielly is up high on a cross ice dump in for God knows what reason and is caught flat footed. Nylander doesn't back check at all, just watches and assumes Rielly will make a play there. We can't have that.

Careful - you're almost sounding like Willy is responsible for covering up for Mitch's defensive shortcomings.

 

[Gallagbi]

The two guys that do are Rielly and Samsonov. On that dump in play Rielly is way too high to the blue line. Pastrnak’s speed is too fast and Rielly is flat footed out of position he cannot cut him off.


You keep saying Nylander shouldnt have left his side but Nylander was literally in the middle of the ice the entire time. Marner ends up lower than Nylander by the end of the play. But in the video you can see Marner has no clue Pastrnak has blown by him till Pastrnak is by the hashmarks. That’s on Marner for sure. But what the hell is Rielly doing in no man’s land and that float in by Nylander is brutal too. Complete system failure.


Please point the time stamp in which you think Marner should have impeded Pastrnak?

Where do you think Mo should be on this play when you say hes too high?

Marner needs to cut the lane at the redline, force Pasta around it, which reduces his speed and makes his path longer. It's about the 2-3 second mark of your clip, but he's not the only one at fault.

 

[sunstersun]

I don't really care about the Pasta goal.

We can't win playoff games without more than 2 goals. We scored 3 goals once in the last 12 playoff games.

We don't play playoff hockey in the regular season and we all wonder why it goes wrong?

NORTH SOUTH PHYSICAL hockey.

 

[LeafSteel]

I don't really care about the Pasta goal.

We can't win playoff games without more than 2 goals. We scored 3 goals once in the last 12 playoff games.

We don't play playoff hockey in the regular season and we all wonder why it goes wrong?

NORTH SOUTH PHYSICAL hockey.

This.

Fools gold vibes for sure, but this playoff will have a very different feeling with Berube behind the bench.

Hes got them all playing playoff style hockey now, including Marner, and doing it well.

I think Berube’s coaching and what he had in place is every bit as important as how Marner and the rest of the Core 4 show up.

So far Marner has responded well and has carried a significant load with Matthews out.

He’s getting a pass from me until the playoffs.

What he does or doesn’t do then (along with everyone else) will impact how interested I am in keeping him.

Still hoping he recognizes that his RFA deal was an overpayment, and if he loves the team and wants to compete, that he will do the team a solid and ask for Willy money, which I still consider an overpayment for either of them…..

 

[francis246]

Where do you think Mo should be on this play when you say hes too high?

Marner needs to cut the lane at the redline, force Pasta around it, which reduces his speed and makes his path longer. It's about the 2-3 second mark of your clip, but he's not the only one at fault.

It’s a dump in, you have Tavares and Lub on the right side of the ice. Lubushkin is already pinching up. Tavares is attacking the puck carrier. Ideally Marner cuts off Pasta but as we established Marner was not paying attention.

Rielly should be closer to the net or at least closer to the left corner for puck retrieval, especially if Boosh is pinching up. Nylander is high in the middle. Do we need 4 guys high on a dump? Who is going to retrieve the puck lol? This is simple, if one dman is pinching, the other stays low. I’m sure they all assumed the puck was going to be rung around and not dumped in cross ice, but that’s why you have one guy stay back just incase. It might be more indicative of Keefe’s netural zone defensive scheme. But Rielly is completely out of position there

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I don't really care about the Pasta goal.

We can't win playoff games without more than 2 goals. We scored 3 goals once in the last 12 playoff games.

We don't play playoff hockey in the regular season and we all wonder why it goes wrong?

NORTH SOUTH PHYSICAL hockey.

Playoff hockey is about 1st team to make a grave defensive error and then game is over .. it is not about skill/offense .. it is will/effort to play defense, make all normal saves as a G and then grind out 16 wins .. scoring always dries up .. there are some exceptions to all formulas over a 100 years but we have not had a team yet with a chance .. this year with OEL, Tanev, McCabe, Benoit, Woll and Stolly we have a shot .. my guess is we will learn more about playoff hockey this year and next year we have a legit chance at Cup with or without Mitch and/or JT

 

[francis246]

This.

Fools gold vibes for sure, but this playoff will have a very different feeling with Berube behind the bench.

Hes got them all playing playoff style hockey now, including Marner, and doing it well.

I think Berube’s coaching and what he had in place is every bit as important as how Marner and the rest of the Core 4 show up.

So far Marner has responded well and has carried a significant load with Matthews out.

He’s getting a pass from me until the playoffs.

What he does or doesn’t do then (along with everyone else) will impact how interested I am in keeping him.

Still hoping he recognizes that his RFA deal was an overpayment, and if he loves the team and wants to compete, that he will do the team a solid and ask for Willy money, which I still consider an overpayment for either of them…..

Having structure and a playoff style system established from October is hopefully going to be a huge benefit.

Couldn’t agree more with all of this post. I also hope Marner recognizes he made more money than his comparables on his 2nd deal. So maybe he considers winning and being in Toronto more important than being the highest paid winger.

 

[sunstersun]

Playoff hockey is about 1st team to make a grave defensive error and then game is over .. it is not about skill/offense .. it is will/effort to play defense, make all normal saves as a G and then grind out 16 wins .. scoring always dries up .. there are some exceptions to all formulas over a 100 years but we have not had a team yet with a chance .. this year with OEL, Tanev, McCabe, Benoit, Woll and Stolly we have a shot .. my guess is we will learn more about playoff hockey this year and next year we have a legit chance at Cup with or without Mitch and/or JT

Ok sure, but why do we have 4 11 million + players on offence if we're going to squeak through 1 goal games?

Makes no sense. Look at the oilers offence.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Ok sure, but why do we have 4 11 million + players on offence if we're going to squeak through 1 goal games?

Makes no sense. Look at the oilers offence.

Regular season pre XMAS hockey is a completely different game then end of season hockey which is then amped up another with 10% speed/hitting increase in playoffs which limits skill production .. unless you have McJesus speed you just can't create time and space on puck required to execute da skill .. Willy is only guy we got who can skate through da time and space reduction .. Mitch can't .. Matty can't and JT has zero chance

 

[ULF_55]

92m projected.

13% is 12m which I think is close to Nylander money as a %. That would be the max but I would rather wait until the playoffs are over.

Probably be a wartime economy by the end of the season anyways. No point in signing a long term anything. I wouldn't.

https://www.thescore.com/s/29070237

That's an interesting situation isn't it.

The announced is around 92, but they could agree to up a $97mm.

So if he were to sign early it would be based on the 92.

 

[LeafSteel]

Having structure and a playoff style system established from October is hopefully going to be a huge benefit.

Couldn’t agree more with all of this post. I also hope Marner recognizes he made more money than his comparables on his 2nd deal. So maybe he considers winning and being in Toronto more important than being the highest paid winger.

He can definitely win back a lot of this fanbase if he does.

…… he can also permanently lose a lot of this fanbase if it goes the way the last one did, and results in another overpayment.

Hopefully, being further along in his career, and now a married man, cooler and calmer heads prevail and something that is good for everyone gets done.

…….. especially after Marner has a playoff that we need from him and shows he needed a coach like Berube to get what we needed from him.

 

[WTFMAN99]

https://www.thescore.com/s/29070237

That's an interesting situation isn't it.

The announced is around 92, but they could agree to up a $97mm.

So if he were to sign early it would be based on the 92.

Right now it's definitely based off 92, they have not used the inflator for a while.

 

[Confucius]

Regular season pre XMAS hockey is a completely different game then end of season hockey which is then amped up another with 10% speed/hitting increase in playoffs which limits skill production .. unless you have McJesus speed you just can't create time and space on puck required to execute da skill .. Willy is only guy we got who can skate through da time and space reduction .. Mitch can't .. Matty can't and JT has zero chance

The funny thing is when the end of season comes the narrative turns to who cares, teams tanking, teams resting, nobody cares about the presidents trophy, made the playoffs time to rest up. lol!

 

[thusk]

1- Pastrnak goal is 100% on rielly and Samsonov

2- Pastrnak goal is not what hurt the leafs... Lindholm goal hurt toronto much more. An other time leafs failed to keep a lead late in a game under keefe. You took lead with 11 minutes and 2 min later you giving up game tying goal, it was the series killer who kept Boston alive, not the pastrnak goal

gm 3 giving up game winning 30 sec after tied it.

gm 1 vs florida: Was workibg hard and came back from 0-2 and gave up game winning goal 3 min later

gm 2 took a 2 goal lead and lost it

2023 gm 3 and 5 vs tampa gave up a goal 1 min later than oppening the score

2022 gm 7 tie the game and gave back the lead 3 min later

happening just too much to have playoff succes

 

[Leafsfan74]

This.

Fools gold vibes for sure, but this playoff will have a very different feeling with Berube behind the bench.

Hes got them all playing playoff style hockey now, including Marner, and doing it well.

I think Berube’s coaching and what he had in place is every bit as important as how Marner and the rest of the Core 4 show up.

So far Marner has responded well and has carried a significant load with Matthews out.

He’s getting a pass from me until the playoffs.

What he does or doesn’t do then (along with everyone else) will impact how interested I am in keeping him.

Still hoping he recognizes that his RFA deal was an overpayment, and if he loves the team and wants to compete, that he will do the team a solid and ask for Willy money, which I still consider an overpayment for either of them…..

Good luck changing the spots of the core. You can have Toe Blake behind the bench and he isn't going to turn any of these guys into Maurice Richard. You have to be built for NHL playoffs especially in a league that blatantly calls the game differently. Maurice Richard was a hard labourer in the offseason, other more modern players came from blue collar families. You can't just replicate that with Xs and Os in the coaches room.

Players who "have it" are generally built or raised a certain way. When the task becomes tougher they thrive. They love the spotlight and welcome the pressure.

Look at Matthew Tkachuk as a prime example. Everyone hates him but these are the types that thrive on trying to beat you, it's a personal challenge and they are frustrating to play against because they won't stop. I don't know if he is playing tonight or not but you know he rises for these games. The Leafs improved D won't allow his life to be too easy I'm sure.

None of our core have that in them. Matthews is the only guy who seems to get pissed off from time to time and then the other team has to watch out as through sheer will he gets one past the goalie. I can watch a game, see some borderline hit or play against him and you just know they woke him up. The next shift he pots a goal or is buzzing around their net.

Not nearly enough in the playoffs though...

 

[Gabriel426]

what if he has an outstanding playoff but they still get ousted in the first round? I'm curious to see how fans would react because that could be a possibility. He could dominate but they still lose, then what? we only look at it from one angle for some reason. Mitch is gonna suck and the leafs will lose. There's so many different possibilities... Mitch could be average or awful and the leafs win a round or multiple rounds, Mitch could be great and the leafs win a round or multiple rounds, Mitch is outstanding and the leafs lose in the first round. All of those are possibilities. Why do we seemingly focus on one particular type of outcome?

In hockey, one person isn't going to make or break the series, you need the whole team.

That’s why you wait till playoffs over then decide on MM and JT.
At the end of the day the question is Can the Leafs win a Cup with their core?
So far the answer is the Core won ONE round in EIGHT playoffs.
The Leafs is at a point where if the players can’t do it in playoffs, they should not be on the team. Let’s face it, this coming playoffs is not the first time for the Leafs core.
If any of the core missed most of the playoffs esp the Cup Finals due to injuries or played like crap while the Leafs win the Cup or be in the Finals. It shows that the Leafs don’t need said player to win in playoffs.
Like you said, it is a team game but the weight of each players are different as there is no way Dewar, Holmberg and Reaves carry the same weight as AM or MM or Willie.

 

[LeafSteel]

Good luck changing the spots of the core. You can have Toe Blake behind the bench and he isn't going to turn any of these guys into Maurice Richard. You have to be built for NHL playoffs especially in a league that blatantly calls the game differently. Maurice Richard was a hard labourer in the offseason, other more modern players came from blue collar families. You can't just replicate that with Xs and Os in the coaches room.

Players who "have it" are generally built or raised a certain way. When the task becomes tougher they thrive. They love the spotlight and welcome the pressure.

Look at Matthew Tkachuk as a prime example. Everyone hates him but these are the types that thrive on trying to beat you, it's a personal challenge and they are frustrating to play against because they won't stop. I don't know if he is playing tonight or not but you know he rises for these games. The Leafs improved D won't allow his life to be too easy I'm sure.

None of our core have that in them. Matthews is the only guy who seems to get pissed off from time to time and then the other team has to watch out as through sheer will he gets one past the goalie. I can watch a game, see some borderline hit or play against him and you just know they woke him up. The next shift he pots a goal or is buzzing around their net.

Not nearly enough in the playoffs though...

I'm inclined to agree with you and I am considering this the very last chance for them all to deliver.

No excuses if they can't play the way they need to under Berube. I do blame the players, and I also blame Keefe, who was constantly out-coached in the playoffs and failed repeatedly to make any of the obvious and glaring adjustments that needed to be done. That's on the coach.

All we can do now is hope that after a season of Berube's coaching, a much better defensive core, and improved goaltending all come together and see the Core 4 deliver on their mandates.

If it's the same dismal and pathetic showing, we are locked with Nylander and Matthews, and only Marner will remain as a significant option to change something. I think we have to see how things end up before anything else is known.

Another underwhelming performance by Marner will diminish my appetite to resign, and anything over $11.5 will see a lot of unhappy people in Leaf Nation.

Again, hoping for the best possible results all around, and in true Leaf fan fashion, preparing for the worst possible scenarios.

 

[Gabriel426]

It’s a dump in, you have Tavares and Lub on the right side of the ice. Lubushkin is already pinching up. Tavares is attacking the puck carrier. Ideally Marner cuts off Pasta but as we established Marner was not paying attention.

Rielly should be closer to the net or at least closer to the left corner for puck retrieval, especially if Boosh is pinching up. Nylander is high in the middle. Do we need 4 guys high on a dump? Who is going to retrieve the puck lol? This is simple, if one dman is pinching, the other stays low. I’m sure they all assumed the puck was going to be rung around and not dumped in cross ice, but that’s why you have one guy stay back just incase. It might be more indicative of Keefe’s netural zone defensive scheme. But Rielly is completely out of position there

I think you and others are over analyzing this one play. It is not like this is a play that lost the Leafs the Cup.
It was the FIRST round. Where Coyle, who would
be our 3C and at best 2C on most teams outplayed AM except for ONE game in the series. A First Round exits that our Leafs averaged 2 goals or less per game and only scored 3 goals ONCE.
Even if they beat Bruins, the Leafs ain’t beating Panthers. The goal is to Win the Cup and not the First round.
If the core still can’t show they can win the Cup this playoffs, what’s the point in bringing them all back.

 

[francis246]

I think you and others are over analyzing this one play. It is not like this is a play that lost the Leafs the Cup.
It was the FIRST round. Where Coyle, who would
be our 3C and at best 2C on most teams outplayed AM except for ONE game in the series. A First Round exits that our Leafs averaged 2 goals or less per game and only scored 3 goals ONCE.
Even if they beat Bruins, the Leafs ain’t beating Panthers. The goal is to Win the Cup and not the First round.
If the core still can’t show they can win the Cup this playoffs, what’s the point in bringing them all back.

I’m not overanalyzing anything lol. I’m simply responding to someone who was blaming the break down on one player and I’m suggesting that there were multiple break downs by multiple players resulting in the goal. Which has been a problem for the leafs under keefe, constant break downs of our systems leading to crucial goals.

No one is saying anything about them winning a cup. So I have no idea what that has to do with anything in the discussion.

 

[Maple Leaf]

premature
wait for playoff

 

[arso40]

Marner back checked harder than Nylander on that play and actually almost got back in time.

I’ve attached the play so you can watch again. I’m not sure how you are claiming the whole thing developed right in front of Marner’s eyes. All the forwards got caught puck watching the dump in. Pastrnak notices that and sneaks in with speed behind Marner. Marner and Nylander don’t even see Pastrnak sneak behind them. The two guys that do are Rielly and Samsonov. On that dump in play Rielly is way too high to the blue line. Pastrnak’s speed is too fast and Rielly is flat footed out of position he cannot cut him off.




You keep saying Nylander shouldnt have left his side but Nylander was literally in the middle of the ice the entire time. Marner ends up lower than Nylander by the end of the play. But in the video you can see Marner has no clue Pastrnak has blown by him till Pastrnak is by the hashmarks. That’s on Marner for sure. But what the hell is Rielly doing in no man’s land and that float in by Nylander is brutal too. Complete system failure.


Please point the time stamp in which you think Marner should have impeded Pastrnak?

That’s your idea of a bacc checc?

 

[arso40]

Where do you think Mo should be on this play when you say hes too high?

Marner needs to cut the lane at the redline, force Pasta around it, which reduces his speed and makes his path longer. It's about the 2-3 second mark of your clip, but he's not the only one at fault.

He knows that he’s just being coy

 

[Gabriel426]

I’m not overanalyzing anything lol. I’m simply responding to someone who was blaming the break down on one player and I’m suggesting that there were multiple break downs by multiple players resulting in the goal. Which has been a problem for the leafs under keefe, constant break downs of our systems leading to crucial goals.

No one is saying anything about them winning a cup. So I have no idea what that has to do with anything in the discussion.

What I am saying is that there is no point kept discussing that play. It really doesn’t matter if it is MM, or Reilly or Sammy or Willie or Keefe or Dubas or Tre or Shanny.

That play wasn’t the play that screwed the Leafs the Cup.

I just don’t see why someone would bring it up beside trolling MM and his fans and people responding are just falling for it.

 

[ACC1224]

What I am saying is that there is no point kept discussing that play. It really doesn’t matter if it is MM, or Reilly or Sammy or Willie or Keefe or Dubas or Tre or Shanny.

That play wasn’t the play that screwed the Leafs the Cup.

I just don’t see why someone would bring it up beside trolling MM and his fans and people responding are just falling for it.

Pretty much sums up this whole thread.