Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[thewave]

People should be focusing on Matthews more, big sexy had ONE goal the last two playoff series. He routinely doesn’t want the puck, never asserts himself, waits around for someone else to ignite the team, and somehow it’s all on Marner for our playoff failures? This little rub, again, like all his other injuries, show the team character does looks different with him out, perhaps it’s instructive. Everyone looks to the alpha male for leadership, if it’s spotty and unreliable, it trickles down, that’s sport. Marner deserves the playoff scorn, but 34 is the big dog and he don’t bark, so far.


You’re peddling nonsense and we have to prove your garbage wrong? Doesn’t work that way, the earth is round, you go prove yourself. Such bottom feeding bullshit dude, we get you don’t like him, don’t dumpster dive to prove a point, makes you look ridiculous.

I have heard he is difficult plenty.

The Babcock drama nonsense real.

His negotiations very obvious and all about money nothing about team.

Ferris very transparent, biggest slime ball out there.

TV personalities over exaggerating his contract 100% confirmed. No way to deny this.

13.8m Kyper lol what a joke.

HIS OUTBURSTS ON THE BENCH IN THE PO.

Media representation is awful

Lastly. Complete and utter failure to the trashiest extent for a lol 13.8m player ever in elimination games without exception.



Sorry there guys, you want to pay players the moon and have a Muskoka 5 type of team, you will not see a cup in this town and will be proven to be fools yet again.

Knies should just start at 10m and same with Woll or Stolarz next contract. Why the he'll not, this team and the media around it are off their rocker just like the people that want to pay that absolute ransom today.

I spit out mostly facts or plausible scenarios. Not some crazy brain stuff like 13.8m from Kyper who you all seem to worship now in your hive mind regarding MM

 

[ToneDog]

But what if he doesn't? What if he and the team reach the cup final?

Pay him.

 

[thewave]

Pay him.

Right, imagine that. Being rewarded for success. The Leafs could learn a thing or two here.

 

[ToneDog]

what if he has an outstanding playoff but they still get ousted in the first round? I'm curious to see how fans would react because that could be a possibility. He could dominate but they still lose, then what? we only look at it from one angle for some reason. Mitch is gonna suck and the leafs will lose. There's so many different possibilities... Mitch could be average or awful and the leafs win a round or multiple rounds, Mitch could be great and the leafs win a round or multiple rounds, Mitch is outstanding and the leafs lose in the first round. All of those are possibilities. Why do we seemingly focus on one particular type of outcome?

In hockey, one person isn't going to make or break the series, you need the whole team.

Pay him if you decide running it back is your best option. I mean what is the difference in $$$ if you sign him today as opposed to after the playoffs? Did we not learn anything from Nylander. How much more was he worth after the playoffs? Many are afraid he will be insulted, pissed off and walk. When it comes down to it, the Leafs can offer the most term and dollars and that is what it is all about for the 3 amigos so far.

 

[IPS]

But what if he doesn't? What if he and the team reach the cup final?

Shouldn't be an issue right? I must have read 5000 times this last summer than playoffs have zero bearing on with players get paid.

What's the standard the Marner PR crew is going with today?

 

[thewave]

Shouldn't be an issue right? I must have read 5000 times this last summer than playoffs have zero bearing on with players get paid.

What's the standard the Marner PR crew is going with today?

He was emotionally distressed by Babco.. Kyle Dubas departure and Berube is very aggressive on the bench. Kinda already heard this one.

 

[ToneDog]

Right, imagine that. Being rewarded for success. The Leafs could learn a thing or two here.

The Marner campaign is in full gear, led by Kypreos who is OK to pay him more than Matthews. He asks, are you OK with $500K more than Matthews? What a f***ing shill.

Then you have Bourne and Sammy shitting their pants that they will be worse if he walks. Sure you take a step but what if these three are the wrong horses to bet everything on. Then you are screwed if winning a SC is the goal. The End.

Has anybody learned anything from the past 8 seasons of the playoffs?

 

[IPS]

I have heard he is difficult plenty.

The Babcock drama nonsense real.

His negotiations very obvious and all about money nothing about team.

Ferris very transparent, biggest slime ball out there.

TV personalities over exaggerating his contract 100% confirmed. No way to deny this.

13.8m Kyper lol what a joke.

HIS OUTBURSTS ON THE BENCH IN THE PO.

Media representation is awful

Lastly. Complete and utter failure to the trashiest extent for a lol 13.8m player ever in elimination games without exception.

The Lou nonsense was real too. Apparently his camp was vindictive about it all the way until they were negotiating with a new GM who had nothing to do at all with his bonuses not being paid. None of us obviously know what went on with Lou and Marner and why he didn't pay him the bonuses but my own personal guess is that Marner's camp really rubbed Lou the wrong way and he wanted to set an example.

 

[thewave]

8

The Marner campaign is in full gear, lead by Kypreos who is OK to pay him more than Matthews. He asks, are you OK with $500K more than Matthews? What a f***ing shill.

Then you have Bourne and Sammy shitting their pants that they will be worse if he walks. Sure you take a step but what if these three are the wrong horses to bet everything on. Then you are screwed if winning a SC is the goal. The End.

Has anybody learned anything from the past 8 seasons of the playoffs?

Nope and that is why I am passionate about this shitshow I see unfolding.

 

[ACC1224]

This is why I expect to see him signed in the next couple months, unless you’re cutting bait there is no way you go into the playoffs without him signed. It ain’t happening, if we go to the playoffs, he’s gone and we aren’t letting him go. Just get it over with and hope for the best number possible, because Marner needs to understand how he will be perceived here moving forward.

Yep really makes zero sense to have this hanging over the team during the playoffs. I have no doubt the people paid to know this stuff, know this stuff.

 

[IPS]

This is why I expect to see him signed in the next couple months, unless you’re cutting bait there is no way you go into the playoffs without him signed. It ain’t happening, if we go to the playoffs, he’s gone and we aren’t letting him go. Just get it over with and hope for the best number possible, because Marner needs to understand how he will be perceived here moving forward.

Does a team like Colorado harbour these same worries with Rantanen?

Why is this all of a sudden a problem with the Leafs?

 

[GoonieFace]

Does a team like Colorado harbour these same worries with Rantanen?

Why is this all of a sudden a problem with the Leafs?

It would be real nice if the increase in cap (% wise) could be used to acquire better depth, and not just used as an excuse why they should pay more to Marner etc.

 

[IPS]

Interesting line from Kyper awhile back regarding Colorado's negotiation with Rantanen:

As Avalanche fans remain frustrated that pending unrestricted free agent Mikko Rantanen has yet to re-sign, some within the organization have been left to think ownership may not have made it a top priority. Speculation is it will take an offer between $95 million and $100 million (U.S.) to get a deal done.

Seems as Colorado is taking a hard line in their negotiations.

 

[thewave]

It would be real nice if the increase in cap (% wise) could be used to acquire better depth, and not just used as an excuse why they should pay more to Marner etc.

For some reason certain parties are not entertaining that. All additional cap goes to MM and when Knies, Woll, Stolarz say where is mine... the party ends. Tanev is old and OEL is old too. Under contract no depth but that 2 years that 13.8m of Mitch was a great cup substitute.

 

[1specter]

This is why I expect to see him signed in the next couple months, unless you’re cutting bait there is no way you go into the playoffs without him signed. It ain’t happening, if we go to the playoffs, he’s gone and we aren’t letting him go. Just get it over with and hope for the best number possible, because Marner needs to understand how he will be perceived here moving forward.

Based on the advice he seems to get from his camp, I don't think he does understand. Perhaps with age he's matured to realize, but both Matthews and Nylander took top dollar, so I expect nothing less from him. This is why I am not a fan of the 'just bend over and take it' mentality with him.

 

[WilliamInLondon]

I'm with Kyper on this one, it doesn't work that way.

There is no chance - zero - that Treliving has or will communicate to Marner that he's waiting to see how the playoffs go before they decide what to do with him. Because if he took that attitude, Marner would rightly say he's walking on July 1st, period.

His argument would be that Treliving didn't hold off on Nylander's deal until last year's playoffs, and it was pretty clear Auston was getting extended with no such conditions. So Mitch would simply ask "why play hardball with me?" And he has a point.

As a fan, I absolutely would want to see how things go in the playoffs before extending him - if they fail again, something drastic must be done. But I wish they took that approach years ago, or told Mitch when they re-signed Willie that he's their guy and moved Marner when they had their chance.

The Leafs didn't so here we are. And my belief is that MLSE's 100% intention is to re-sign him after the season is over, regardless of how the playoffs go, unless Mitch rejects every offer they throw at him and walks.

honestly, I agree with your point.

My stance above was in a perfect vacuum from the POV of Treliving and the fans. It has been 57 years...if the Leafs win the Stanley Cup, nobody is going to care if Marner signs at $14M x 8.

From an asset management perspective though, you run the risk of losing Marner for absolutely nothing if you don't re-sign him over the next 2-3 months. The opportunity cost of not having Marner versus is greater than the optics and the $1M-$2M overpay depending on when and what you lock him in at.

My guess is 8 x $12.75M AAV, and if the Leafs are gone in Round 1, you just lean into it in other ways (not re-sign Tavares, ship out other players, buy a bit more rope by letting Shanahan go, etc.).

Having said all of that...I still tell him, sign now or $0 if we don't get past the first round

 

[Darcy Tucker]

Don't want to get into any of the back and forths. But Mitch stepping up like this and evolving his playing style it seems under Berube has made me so proud of the guy.

He had all the pressure on him and it's not affecting him. Looks like the coaching change is exactly what he needed and I fully expect him to keep up the intensity and dedication to playing both ways while being a big producer. Keefe's tenure ending was the best thing for the guy.

 

[WilliamInLondon]

8 years in and we don’t know if Matthews, Marner, and Nylander are good enough. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are more excited about the four nations than they are the playoffs.


What if he gets pushed out again but win a round? Would you still give 11.5 x 8?

haha heart and fanbase says no, but head says yes. Like with the rising cap and everything, I'd go up to $12.5M-$13M X 8 irrespective of playoff outcome, but negotiate hard on the NMC/NTC clauses.

My gut says that that's where this will end up - Marner re-signs for roughly within that range in season, but is willing to be flexible on the NMC/NTC terms over the duration of the contract. In all honesty, I'm happy with that and I'm actually extremely bullish on the team's chances this season. They've been consistently very good save for 1-2 games and haven't had more than 3 subpar games in any given stretch. This is more conducive to playoff success versus last season, where they literally blew some teams out of the water and then a few games later struggled to close out against mediocre teams.

 

[thewave]

honestly, I agree with your point.

My stance above was in a perfect vacuum from the POV of Treliving and the fans. It has been 57 years...if the Leafs win the Stanley Cup, nobody is going to care if Marner signs at $14M x 8.

From an asset management perspective though, you run the risk of losing Marner for absolutely nothing if you don't re-sign him over the next 2-3 months. The opportunity cost of not having Marner versus is greater than the optics and the $1M-$2M overpay depending on when and what you lock him in at.

My guess is 8 x $12.75M AAV, and if the Leafs are gone in Round 1, you just lean into it in other ways (not re-sign Tavares, ship out other players, buy a bit more rope by letting Shanahan go, etc.).

Having said all of that...I still tell him, sign now or $0 if we don't get past the first round

The Leafs have the leverage.

No playoff success. He makes bank off local endorsements and is not a household name in US markets. 8th year on contract.

That alone is big enough to hold out. 13.8m that Kyper floated is basically his coming out statement. Kyper destroyed his credibility using that number, he was questionable before but now he may as well have the sports agency under his title when he appears on TV.

Don't want to get into any of the back and forths. But Mitch stepping up like this and evolving his playing style it seems under Berube has made me so proud of the guy.

He had all the pressure on him and it's not affecting him. Looks like the coaching change is exactly what he needed and I fully expect him to keep up the intensity and dedication to playing both ways while being a big producer. Keefe's tenure ending was the best thing for the guy.

This is the new Spin? The players practically fought to keep Keefe lol

 

[IPS]

The league needs a soft cap system more than ever at this point.

 

[thewave]

The league needs a soft cap system more than ever at this point.

They do. Another thing is considering the nature of Kypers position and how he works between the channels. His use of numbers etc in different type of circumstances would be considered tampering.

Dregger and Kyper are essentiallly acting agents of Agencies that represent players. Considering he is also in addition an NHLPA member and moving player values ups raises more money for the PA...

Rogers etc apparently don't get this. It takes a dope on HFBoards to point out. The kicker though.. Rogers and Bell employ the guy that is actively screwing them. He must laugh at home at night about this if he is even smart enough to grasp what's going on.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

They do. Another thing is considering the nature of Kypers position and how he works between the channels. His use of numbers etc in different type of circumstances would be considered tampering.

Dregger and Kyper are essentiallly acting agents of Agencies that represent players. Considering he is also in addition an NHLPA member and moving player values ups raises more money for the PA...

Rogers etc apparently don't get this. It takes a dope on HFBoards to point out. The kicker though.. Rogers and Bell employ the guy that is actively screwing them. He must laugh at home at night about this if he is even smart enough to grasp what's going on.

Increasing individual salaries doesn't put upward pressure on overall salaries because the NHL is based on a hard cap system.

The salary cap is based off a fixed percentage of overall HRR (Hockey Related Revenues). The players salaries have to fall under that cap. Increasing individual salaries shouldn't have any effect on PA revenues as those salaries are a result of, rather than the cause of, increased revenues.

Kypreos can shill for Marner all he wants but it won't put a dime more in his pocket unless his dramatics bring more fans and their money to the sport.

 

[leafs in five]

The Babcock drama nonsense real.

His negotiations very obvious and all about money nothing about team.

Ferris very transparent, biggest slime ball out there.

TV personalities over exaggerating his contract 100% confirmed. No way to deny this.

13.8m Kyper lol what a joke.

HIS OUTBURSTS ON THE BENCH IN THE PO.

Media representation is awful

Lastly. Complete and utter failure to the trashiest extent for a lol 13.8m player ever in elimination games without exception.

I spit out mostly facts or plausible scenarios. Not some crazy brain stuff like 13.8m from Kyper who you all seem to worship now in your hive mind regarding MM

literally none of those things are facts

 

[thewave]

Increasing individual salaries doesn't put upward pressure on overall salaries because the NHL is based on a hard cap system.

The salary cap is based off a fixed percentage of overall HRR (Hockey Related Revenues). The players salaries have to fall under that cap. Increasing individual salaries shouldn't have any effect on PA revenues as those salaries are a result of, rather than the cause of, increased revenues.

Kypreos can shill for Marner all he wants but it won't put a dime more in his pocket unless his dramatics bring more fans and their money to the sport.

Incorrect. Many teams do not hit the cap and float under the cap to remain in business. They also require equalization payments. The reasoning for the cap is to limit the competitive advantage of large markets.

Inflating the value of "good players" this fast will leave those teams in a bind paying more for lesser quality. The tiers of players will sfan out.

For instance Knies. He won't stay with us because he can get 9m elsewhere. He naturally should be a 7m probably if it keeps going this way. In Toronto with MM making 13.8m he won't be viable. Goalies will also look at this and say where is mine.

100% a chain reaction baked into the cake that apparently they do not see. The only solution to stop the runaway train is to play hardball and if they do not, you will have a lockout for one. The other thing will be a tier of players...

The 10m+ players and the jobbers making peanuts with no inbetween

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yes, I realized that, but I meant generally.

Good question.