Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[francis246]

That's not the question I asked. I asked how many of those contracts you want on your team? If you don't want a single contract on your team - then how is that an argument for Marner.

I would not take Marner over Panarin. Panarin is a better passer and goalscorer than Marner. The rest of them are whatever. Maybe Eichel at 10M over Marner at 12M.. but I'd prefer neither.

Marner isn't our 'star'. We got two stars already. Marner is one of 4 pieces we currently have. You can find value in players that are cheaper. Look of UFA signing's in the 5M range that worked out well - Hyman, Strome, Patrick Kane, etc. Just use the money wisely, don't go overpaying for a Mikheyev and you're okay.

If we let both Marner and Tavares walk (or take a massive discount) we can rebuild our entire team. Assuming both Marner and Tavares walk, and Marner wanted 12M+ - that's 23M in cap space. You can sign four 5M dollar players for that amount - or take on contracts across the league without retention. That would give us way more depth than Marner/Tavares.

Both Matthews and Nylander are fine without Marner. Marner is a great player, but he's not worth his contract. He held out for one of the highest RFA contracts of all time his last contract and I expect him to want one of the highest UFA contracts of all time on his next one. He's not worth the cost. Tampa just walked away from their captain who won them 2 Cups and they didn't miss a step - they replaced him with Guentzel - was that a downgrade or upgrade?

Marner not a star? Haha

Rebuild your team how exactly? Right now we barely have any picks, barely have any top prospects. We don’t have the assets at the moment to even acquire a Guentzel for example. We struggle 5 on 5 and you wanna let two of our best players walk to UFA to sign who exactly? Some mediocre 30+ guys? UFA is a huge gamble, the players have to want to come here. I don’t know if you’ve taken a look at this years UFA, but it’s complete trash. It’s top heavy and not much scoring depth available.

None of the UFA examples you listed are available this year, so that point is moot. I’m not saying your perspective is wrong, but it’s just a realistic option given who’s available. There is no Hyman, there is no Blake Coleman.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Thats fine if you "don't care" but your presence here and now in November says that you do care, so either be honest and stop with the tired refrain or stand by your bold proclimations and simply vamoose until April. You shouldnt even watch until then. But guys like you are liars, you're the ones crying the loudest when the leafs shit the bed like they did against ottawa. Then all of a sudden the regular season games mean something when you got something to complain about.

You complain about my honesty then call me a liar. Do you lack the intelligence to see your own hypocrisy? Get lost and don't answer that since the answer is so obvious.

 

[Racer88]

The #1 Marner issu is when he thinking too much. East-West keefe system where the majority of scoring chance was coming off the rush, he was looking too much all the time how he could pass the puck and exemple in 2v1 with JT, he would certainly try to find every way to pass it to tavares... tonight he just keep it simple, he saw an opportunity and he jump on it. Keep it simple, goes to the net and take your chance...

... And chance off the rush is not really Marner strenght, its more Nylander strenght so that why i had more doubt about Nylander under Berube than Marner but it's an other story ( and both doing good job this season)

Marner always had great work ethic, defensive 1st mind and why whatever if it was Babcock, Keefe or Berube... Marner always been #1 player they trust in any kind of situation whatever what. The difference right now is he react to the game unstead or thinking about what he should do. If he can translate it on the playoff, he will be amaizing

Hopefully it continues once Mathews comes back.

 

[Divine]

Marner not a star? Haha

Rebuild your team how exactly? Right now we barely have any picks, barely have any top prospects. We don’t have the assets at the moment to even acquire a Guentzel for example. We struggle 5 on 5 and you wanna let two of our best players walk to UFA to sign who exactly? Some mediocre 30+ guys? UFA is a huge gamble, the players have to want to come here. I don’t know if you’ve taken a look at this years UFA, but it’s complete trash. It’s top heavy and not much scoring depth available.

None of the UFA examples you listed are available this year, so that point is moot. I’m not saying your perspective is wrong, but it’s just a realistic option given who’s available. There is no Hyman, there is no Blake Coleman.

Marner is not our only star. He’s never been our star like the previous poster has been saying. Not many on this board would pick Marner over Matthews. So no, he isn’t our star player.

Rebuild through FA and trades. Cap space is an asset. Tampa Bay just acquired Jake Guentzel for free as a FA, they didn’t give up assets for him. They let their captain walk and signed him. The Rangers did the same thing with Panarin. CBJ did the same thing with Gaudreau (RIP). The Habs got Laine for free by virtue of taking his cap hit. The Leafs acquired Tavares solely using cap space. Cap space is an asset that not many teams have. Stop looking at draft picks as the only asset. People trade draft picks for cap space.

Rantanen is a UFA this summer and he’s better than Marner. McDavid is a UFA next summer and he’s better than Marner. Put yourself in a position to succeed.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I love how you use the 12 million mark as a barometer to talk about the 40 goals. How many players are making 12 million + right now?

In fact go check how many 11 or 10 million players have scored 40. The list is small brother. Panarin I think hit 40 for the first time last year and prior to that he was also barely a 30 goal scorer. Marner has had similar 30 goal seasons like Panarin to be fair.


Let’s look at other high paid forwards who have had less career highs or similar career highs in goals to Marner.

Huberdeau - career high 30 goals twice (10.5 million)
Panarin - career high 42 last year, played a full 82. Prior to that, career high of 32. Didnt score 30 for 3 seasons prior to his 42.
Kopitar - career high of 35
Eichel - career high of 36

People on here milk the 40 goal thing so much. Very few players reach 40 goals. We don’t need Marner to be a 40 goal guy. We need him to drive offense in the playoffs

The issue isn’t even about Marner’s shot. It’s a good shot. The issue is Marner doesn’t shoot enough. And that problem is increased when he plays along side Auston because he is hyper focused on getting Auston the puck. Marner just needs to shoot more, he could be a 35+ goal scorer in his sleep if he did.

The only reason 40 is the bar for these people is because Nylander got 11.5 and hit exactly 40.

 

[Divine]

The only reason 40 is the bar for these people is because Nylander got 11.5 and hit exactly 40.

Hit exactly 40 twice and leads the team scoring yet again this season and Marner wants more than him. Marner held out for 10.9M as an RFA - you think he settles for 11.5 as a UFA?

No player has never not hit 40 goals and got 12M dollars. This isn’t even debateable, it’s a fact.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Against Edmonton, Mitchy showed up, he took charge, he took responsibility, he led, he shot when he should. I often question his value to Leafs.
I cannot question him in most games this season. I may have to rethink my position on his value.

 

[thusk]

1.) That's because Marner can score easy goals. He's scoring goals on 2 on 1's and rebounds. He can't score goals when there's no space. Why is it in the playoffs his goal scoring disappears? He doesn't even score at a 20 goal pace in the playoffs. He had a good game against Montreal. He scored a 2 on 1 goal tonight in 3v3, another on a 6 on 4 PP. You notice the pattern? Lots of space out there - either due to bad teams, or 3 on 3 hockey. You don't get that in the playoffs.

2.) Marner has scored more than 30 goals twice in his 8 year career. I don't care about his 'pace'. No player in NHL history has made 12M without scoring at least 40 goals on their previous contract contract - this guy barely scores 30.

3.) Yes, Marner is a great passer. So is Kucherov, McDavid, MacKinnon. The difference is, when you pay those guys they can pass AND score 40+ goals for you. Marner can't.

Here's the key point. Marner is a great player - but if you got to pick any player in the league to pay 12M+ to, Marner would be far down that list.

Look at Rantanen, makes less than Marner, is going to be a UFA this offseason also. Scored 50+ goals. Great passer. Physical. Leads the Avs in scoring nearly every playoffs. Guess what? His cap hit is probably going to be lower than Marner's (again). There's the problem with Marner right there. He wants to be one of the top 5 highest paid guys in the league - but every single one of those players can shoot AND pass the puck.

1- The only easy goal he scored was mtl goal when he fighting, never forfeit on the play and come back in front ( something than 98% of people would not do) to score an empty net goal

10 of 12 Nylander goal ( vs 5 of 6 marner goal) was 2v1 goal, just sent a puck in an empty net or rebound goal, Who's care?
Majority of hyman goal was off rebound or redirected puck , who's care ? Sorry but this one really look like someone really searching something to complain about it.

2- Salary cap rising up and actually only 3 player was winning 12M, that will raise and nobody really know what's Marner want... All this are just speculation right now

3- If Berube is able to bring out in his system the marner under babcock vs Boston where he completly outplayed thr Bergeron-Marchand-Pastrnak line ( who was maybe best nhl line at this time) with 35 y/o plekanec and 38 y/o marleau. Marner becoming more important for the leafs for the only reason he would be able to produce at high rate and outplayed /shutdown top opposite weapon. Yesterday game is a great exemple where he outplayed mcdavid line

If marner can translate his actual game in playoff like he did under babcock in 2018, he will make leafs much more better than any other mive they could do

PS Mcdavid will sign over 14M if not 15 M in his new contract and mackinnon would probably sign around 13 to 14 M if he would have to resign now... the comparaison are pretty bad here

 

[Divine]

1- The only easy goal he scored was mtl goal when he fighting, never forfeit on the play and come back in front ( something than 98% of people would not do) to score an empty net goal

10 of 12 Nylander goal ( vs 5 of 6 marner goal) was 2v1 goal, just sent a puck in an empty net or rebound goal, Who's care?
Majority of hyman goal was off rebound or redirected puck , who's care ? Sorry but this one really look like someone really searching something to complain about it.

2- Salary cap rising up and actually only 3 player was winning 12M, that will raise and nobody really know what's Marner want... All this are just speculation right now

3- If Berube is able to bring out in his system the marner under babcock vs Boston where he completly outplayed thr Bergeron-Marchand-Pastrnak line ( who was maybe best nhl line at this time) with 35 y/o plekanec and 38 y/o marleau. Marner becoming more important for the leafs for the only reason he would be able to produce at high rate and outplayed /shutdown top opposite weapon. Yesterday game is a great exemple where he outplayed mcdavid line

If marner can translate his actual game in playoff like he did under babcock in 2018, he will make leafs much more better than any other mive they could do

PS Mcdavid will sign over 14M if not 15 M in his new contract and mackinnon would probably sign around 13 to 14 M if he would have to resign now... the comparaison are pretty bad here

I’ll take McDavid at 15 over Marner at 12 every day of the week. (UFA next offseason)

I’ll take Rantanen over Marner every day of the week. (UFA this offseason)

If both Marner and Tavares walk, that’s 22M to play with. That’s a substantial amount - let’s see what’s out there.

This FA we went out and got Stolarz/OEL/Tanev for free as UFA’s. I don’t understand why people think UFA’s always make your team worse. I’m pretty sure the Rangers are happy with Panarin. Sam Bennett is a UFA that plays Treliving’s style. A lot of options out there. I’m also not convinced McDavid re-signs in Edmonton until he does.

 

[Confucius]

I’ll take McDavid at 15 over Marner at 12 every day of the week. (UFA next offseason)

I’ll take Rantanen over Marner every day of the week. (UFA this offseason)

If both Marner and Tavares walk, that’s 22M to play with. That’s a substantial amount - let’s see what’s out there.

This FA we went out and got Stolarz/OEL/Tanev for free as UFA’s. I don’t understand why people think UFA’s always make your team worse. I’m pretty sure the Rangers are happy with Panarin. Sam Bennett is a UFA that plays Treliving’s style. A lot of options out there. I’m also not convinced McDavid re-signs in Edmonton until he does.

Is that available?
A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush

 

[Divine]

Is that available?
A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush

As of right now it’s available. Let Marner play out his contract because he’s not likely to waive his NMC for us.

Make a decision after the playoffs. He’s going to be playing for a contract so hopefully that might motivate him to show up… but I wouldn’t bet on it. A few hits and he’s going to start playing hot potato with the puck.

I don’t see in what world we win a Stanley Cup with a 12M low-scoring winger. San Jose couldn’t even do it with Thornton who was a way better passer than Marner and at least he played centre.

 

[ACC1224]

Hey @Mess how’s those new plus/minus projections that you found so crucially important coming along? It’s been a while

 

[BraveCanadian]

Hey @Mess how’s those new plus/minus projections that you found so crucially important coming along? It’s been a while

Yeah haven’t seen those for a bit now. Weird.

Nylander had his chances last night too, though. Hit the post on one.

 

[DarkKnight]

On a 104 point pace. 4th in takeaways, which is normal. What isn't normal, his giveaway are way down by his historic standards, 43rd in the league. Normally he's top 10ish, a function of having the puck, the top usually a how's how of the league, yet he's curiously well down this year.

As an aside, if you're reduced to undermining his passing ability, might be time for a rethink on your absurdity corner you've painted yourself into.

 

[francis246]

Marner is not our only star. He’s never been our star like the previous poster has been saying. Not many on this board would pick Marner over Matthews. So no, he isn’t our star player.

Rebuild through FA and trades. Cap space is an asset. Tampa Bay just acquired Jake Guentzel for free as a FA, they didn’t give up assets for him. They let their captain walk and signed him. The Rangers did the same thing with Panarin. CBJ did the same thing with Gaudreau (RIP). The Habs got Laine for free by virtue of taking his cap hit. The Leafs acquired Tavares solely using cap space. Cap space is an asset that not many teams have. Stop looking at draft picks as the only asset. People trade draft picks for cap space.

Rantanen is a UFA this summer and he’s better than Marner. McDavid is a UFA next summer and he’s better than Marner. Put yourself in a position to succeed.

Tampa acquired Guentzels rights through a trade so it wasn’t for free.

Again I don’t disagree with you. But what I’m saying is who is available in this years UFA crop? No body. Rantanen is not coming here. You think he’s going to leave being second fiddle under MacKinnon to be 2nd or 3rd fiddle in Toronto? If he’s leaving Colorado it’s to go be the man and the highest paid player else where. There’s been reports that he feels he deserves more than or equal to MacKinnon, sounds awfully similar to the situation here in Toronto no.

Cap space is an asset if used and managed properly. Can I let you in on a little secrete? NHL GM’s tend to make their biggest mistakes when given too much cap. Because you end up overpaying mediocre players. I would always rather overpay 1 good player than overpay 3-5 players who are okay, making those contracts hard to move without retention. That’s the situation Calgary is in right now.

 

[ACC1224]

On a 104 point pace. 4th in takeaways, which is normal. What isn't normal, his giveaway are way down by his historic standards, 43rd in the league. Normally he's top 10ish, a function of having the puck, the top usually a how's how of the league, yet he's curiously well down this year.

As an aside, if you're reduced to undermining his passing ability, might be time for a rethink on your absurdity corner you've painted yourself into.

‘Absurdity corner’ sums things up pretty well

Yeah haven’t seen those for a bit now. Weird.

Nylander had his chances last night too, though. Hit the post on one.

Perhaps his calculator broke?

Tampa acquired Guentzels rights through a trade so it wasn’t for free.

Again I don’t disagree with you. But what I’m saying is who is available in this years UFA crop? No body. Rantanen is not coming here. You think he’s going to leave being second fiddle under MacKinnon to be 2nd or 3rd fiddle in Toronto? If he’s leaving Colorado it’s to go be the man and the highest paid player else where. There’s been reports that he feels he deserves more than or equal to MacKinnon, sounds awfully similar to the situation here in Toronto no.

I don’t think anyone here thinks they deserve more or equal to Matthews.
Where is that coming from ?

 

[notdoneyet]

Like to see 10.9m players play like 10.9m players

It would be nice to see 11.5 m players play like 11.5m
Would have been nice to see nylander in the lineup against the oilers

 

[francis246]

‘Absurdity corner’ sums things up pretty well


Perhaps his calculator broke?


I don’t think anyone here thinks they deserve more or equal to Matthews.
Where is that coming from ?

There were reports in Marner’s last negotiation that he wanted close to Matthews contract. I doubt he still feels that way. But what I’m saying is people act like only the stars in Toronto want to be paid. No stars across the league want to be paid as well. We just don’t hear about it as much.

 

[Confucius]

It would be nice to see 11.5 m players play like 11.5m
Would have been nice to see nylander in the lineup against the oilers

Let’s not dump on one guy to elevate the value of another. William is a great player maybe next game he will shine.

 

[thusk]

I’ll take McDavid at 15 over Marner at 12 every day of the week. (UFA next offseason)

I’ll take Rantanen over Marner every day of the week. (UFA this offseason)

If both Marner and Tavares walk, that’s 22M to play with. That’s a substantial amount - let’s see what’s out there.

This FA we went out and got Stolarz/OEL/Tanev for free as UFA’s. I don’t understand why people think UFA’s always make your team worse. I’m pretty sure the Rangers are happy with Panarin. Sam Bennett is a UFA that plays Treliving’s style. A lot of options out there. I’m also not convinced McDavid re-signs in Edmonton until he does.

That's your choice but personally i taking marner playing like he doing right now over Rantanen

and everybody will love to take mcdavid whatever the $$ he would want...

2-When your bring the right player with what you need, yes that will make you better. When you just moving player to move player, that will just make you worst.

Leafs needed at stay at home d able to play against top matchup, that whaylt tanev bring

they need someone able play 200 feet and a physical game, that's exactly what oel bring.

 

[TMLAM34]

Would like to see McMann - Tavares - Marner get an extended look with each other, even when Matthews returns to the lineup. This team would be more dangerous with Matthews, Marner and Nylander driving their own lines.

 

[Divine]

Tampa acquired Guentzels rights through a trade so it wasn’t for free.

Again I don’t disagree with you. But what I’m saying is who is available in this years UFA crop? No body. Rantanen is not coming here. You think he’s going to leave being second fiddle under MacKinnon to be 2nd or 3rd fiddle in Toronto? If he’s leaving Colorado it’s to go be the man and the highest paid player else where. There’s been reports that he feels he deserves more than or equal to MacKinnon, sounds awfully similar to the situation here in Toronto no.

Cap space is an asset if used and managed properly. Can I let you in on a little secrete? NHL GM’s tend to make their biggest mistakes when given too much cap. Because you end up overpaying mediocre players. I would always rather overpay 1 good player than overpay 3-5 players who are okay, making those contracts hard to move without retention. That’s the situation Calgary is in right now.

Tampa wasted a draft pick. It was still free. They signed him on July 1st. They could have signed him that day whether or not they acquired his rights. Any team had the right to talk to him before July 1st. We did the same thing with Tanev, wasted a draft pick only to sign him July 1st.

Rantanen has a lot stronger of a case than Marner. Despite MacKinnon getting all the credit for the Avs good playoffs - Rantanen outscores him nearly every year in the playoffs. Rantanen usually leads the Avs in playoff scoring. Do the Avs want to pay him more than MacK? Who knows. I'd pick Rantanen over Marner though.

Sure - if you get cap space and use it horribly, then it's a mistake. The point of having cap space is to use it well. I personally think the Leafs should go into next season with a bunch of 1 year deals if McDavid isn't re-signed. He's from here. His wife is from here. He spends his summers here and grew up dreaming about playing for the team. At least let him think about the option of coming here if he doesn't immediately re-sign July 1st. If we just gave Matthews, Marner, Nylander raises and Tavares is still making a decent amount - we can't afford him if he wanted to.

 

[francis246]

Tampa wasted a draft pick. It was still free. They signed him on July 1st. They could have signed him that day whether or not they acquired his rights. Any team had the right to talk to him before July 1st. We did the same thing with Tanev, wasted a draft pick only to sign him July 1st.

Rantanen has a lot stronger of a case than Marner. Despite MacKinnon getting all the credit for the Avs good playoffs - Rantanen outscores him nearly every year in the playoffs. Rantanen usually leads the Avs in playoff scoring. Do the Avs want to pay him more than MacK? Who knows. I'd pick Rantanen over Marner though.

Sure - if you get cap space and use it horribly, then it's a mistake. The point of having cap space is to use it well. I personally think the Leafs should go into next season with a bunch of 1 year deals if McDavid isn't re-signed. He's from here. His wife is from here. He spends his summers here and grew up dreaming about playing for the team. At least let him think about the option of coming here if he doesn't immediately re-sign July 1st. If we just gave Matthews, Marner, Nylander raises and Tavares is still making a decent amount - we can't afford him if he wanted to.

You can’t operate like that though. It’s not realistic unless extreme tampering occurs. Should we intentionally make our team worse for a shot at McDavid? What if McDavid doesn’t become available?

I’m not advocating for Marner to be paid a fortune but looking at things objectively. Signing Marner to me is the best option right now because we cannot trade him. I think resigning Marner to a mid term contract under 12 would be ideal. 3 or 4 years at 11.85. I could be wrong but I do think Marner is going to take a reasonable contract this time around to try and win over fans. I’m not sure it’ll work even if he does it, but I think it’s clear he wants to be a leaf.

 

[Divine]

You can’t operate like that though. It’s not realistic unless extreme tampering occurs. Should we intentionally make our team worse for a shot at McDavid? What if McDavid doesn’t become available?

I’m not advocating for Marner to be paid a fortune but looking at things objectively. Signing Marner to me is the best option right now because we cannot trade him. I think resigning Marner to a mid term contract under 12 would be ideal. 3 or 4 years at 11.85. I could be wrong but I do think Marner is going to take a reasonable contract this time around to try and win over fans. I’m not sure it’ll work even if he does it, but I think it’s clear he wants to be a leaf.

Do you think all these contracts that get signed first thing July 1st happened in 30 seconds? Obviously teams talk to players before July 1st. If you're trading for a players rights, you should be signing him before July 1st. Darren Dreger even said he believes 70-95% of the contracts signed on July 1st are negotiated before July 1st. This offseason Tyler Bertuzzi said that Foligno (Chicago's captain) called him and told him Chicago was interested before July 1st. Happens all the time.

Let me ask you this then. How much are you willing to pay Marner before you think about walking away? Some people want to hand him a blank cheque for some reason.

 

[thusk]

On a 104 point pace. 4th in takeaways, which is normal. What isn't normal, his giveaway are way down by his historic standards, 43rd in the league. Normally he's top 10ish, a function of having the puck, the top usually a how's how of the league, yet he's curiously well down this year.

As an aside, if you're reduced to undermining his passing ability, might be time for a rethink on your absurdity corner you've painted yourself into.

Keefe system was on create scoring chance off the rush, so taking chance on some risky play and marner doing it at higher rate than anyone else .. so yes when it's doesn't work = giveaway.. With Berube system, they don't take play that way anynore so no its not surprising than his number of giveaway move down. Its just system result