Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[Hellcat]

Marner is a nifty shinny hockey player that does crap we joked about and did on a pond for fun. That's it. He is an attraction like Harlem Globetrotters or what have you. He can't compete in a legit hard hitting tightly contested serious hockey game. It's like Pascal Siakim and why we dumped him for not being able to perform in the playoffs without a Kawhi.

You're free to feel differently but the results don't lie. The stats aren't fake. He is an elimination game fader and as far as games 5 6 7 in any series his performance are less than a Kerfoot.

You know who signs Marner? A stupid manager worried about his job and needs a star attraction to do kids moves on the ice with higher degree of success than everyone else that does that junk. Most just let it die in Jr's.

There are now all kinds of kids doing lame Marner moves trying to replicate his lame hockey gimmick. Guy is going to ruin serious athletes with NHL aspirations ffs

5-6-7 if there would only be more Magic Mitch hits, that would have changed everything. Grrrr damn you Mitch and your less than awesome hits ...

Yet with all you said and trust me it was a lot of something, Cooper still has him on the top line, with McDavid and Reinhart. You'd think they hire a coach for Team Canada that knows as much about hockey as you do. Cooper? Cooper? Cooper... nope never heard of him.

 

[thewave]

5-6-7 if there would only be more Magic Mitch hits, that would have changed everything. Grrrr damn you Mitch and your less than awesome hits ...

Yet with all you said and trust me it was a lot of something, Cooper still has him on the top line, with McDavid and Reinhart. You'd think they hire a coach for Team Canada that knows as much about hockey as you do. Cooper? Cooper? Cooper... nope never heard of him.

Cooper is smart. If I was Cooper I would keep the job opportunity open for myself to make 12m a year in crazy town Toronto too!

You do understand that when you work in a field and there is a lot of turnover with execs and managers jumping ship to competitors you never shit talk them in the media right. You may need to work with the guy that destroyed Babcock one day you know that right. He is going with the flow and perception.

Come on mannnn

 

[IPS]

Yet with all you said and trust me it was a lot of something, Cooper still has him on the top line, with McDavid and Reinhart. You'd think they hire a coach for Team Canada that knows as much about hockey as you do. Cooper? Cooper? Cooper... nope never heard of him.

I think it's a lot like team USA where it's more of a 1A and 1B type of lines.

 

[leafs in five]

Hard to compare. Being a terrible non-playoff team for many years is clearly worse, that's one way to look at it. The other way is that there were no expectations so no massive disappointments which is what we're going through now - the gap between playoff expectations and achievements is almost unparalleled in NA pro sports history.

I think there were expectations for the teams that traded 1st/2nd round picks and futures for Raycroft/Toskala/Bolland/Kessel/Stempniak/Perreault, however ill-conceived. I certainly remember arguing with folks on here during the first corsi wars, about whether the Bozak 1C Leafs were good or not.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think there were expectations for the teams that traded 1st/2nd round picks and futures for Raycroft/Toskala/Bolland/Kessel/Stempniak/Perreault, however ill-conceived. I certainly remember arguing with folks on here during the first corsi wars, about whether the Bozak 1C Leafs were good or not.

Yeah that seems fair, I suppose instead of saying no expectations I should have said low expectations.

I don't think that changes the rest of what I said, to each his own etc. Both eras have really sucked, hard to choose between them in that sense, at least for me.

 

[Stephen]

I think there were expectations for the teams that traded 1st/2nd round picks and futures for Raycroft/Toskala/Bolland/Kessel/Stempniak/Perreault, however ill-conceived. I certainly remember arguing with folks on here during the first corsi wars, about whether the Bozak 1C Leafs were good or not.

It’s funny. If you tallied up what the Leafs got back for their 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023 and 2025 first round picks, it’s basically the Muzzin trade, the Marleau debacle, a Mrazek disposal, a couple of months of Foligno, O’Reilly, full time Jake McCabe and some spare change… and if you extend that to all the second round picks given out, a good percentage is renting Ilya Lyubushkin twice and getting broken down Mark Giordano. Off the top of my head. So the stewardship of picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds has been pretty tragic this era too. But luckily they have a prime age core to underwrite these misadventures with picks.

 

[JL17]

I had a sneeze this morning with more force.... .

OK lets sketch this out, so Marner hits more over the last 9 series, he's a mad man hitting everyone in sight, the only difference is Marner is a hitting machine, how many series do we win as a result of his increased physicality? Pro tip: It's still only one series.

Pro Tip… he’d create more space for himself if he did hit guys and stop playing scared. When you create a little space and stop playing scared you might be able to make passes that create goals. More space in game 7s could mean more series wins.

 

[leafs in five]

It’s funny. If you tallied up what the Leafs got back for their 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023 and 2025 first round picks, it’s basically the Muzzin trade, the Marleau debacle, a Mrazek disposal, a couple of months of Foligno, O’Reilly, full time Jake McCabe and some spare change… and if you extend that to all the second round picks given out, a good percentage is renting Ilya Lyubushkin twice and getting broken down Mark Giordano. Off the top of my head. So the stewardship of picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds has been pretty tragic this era too. But luckily they have a prime age core to underwrite these misadventures with picks.

I mean you can debate the value returned but they were undoubtedly in a better position to be making those trades since 2019 than they were in the mid-late 00s. Knies is great and I love im but I do wonder about paying up for Hagel back then.

 

[JL17]

Marner isn’t playing in the bottom 6 roles. If he struggles where does he go. Is he going to switch with Jarvis or Hagel?

All the bottom 6 can move up. Marner is the only guy I can’t see fitting in that bottom six due to style of play.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I would imagine he will play well since he’s with McDavid. McDavid turned notable “plug” Hyman into a 50 goal scorer.

Hyman goes to the net with intent. Will McDavid set up Marner at the blueline the same way he sets up Hyman in the slot?

 

[GoonieFace]

Hyman goes to the net with intent. Will McDavid set up Marner at the blueline the same way he sets up Hyman in the slot?

Guess I missed the mark. I was simply saying he should easily put up points with McDavid

 

[notDatsyuk]

Guess I missed the mark. I was simply saying he should easily put up points with McDavid

Assists almost certainly; goals less likely.

 

[thewave]

It’s funny. If you tallied up what the Leafs got back for their 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023 and 2025 first round picks, it’s basically the Muzzin trade, the Marleau debacle, a Mrazek disposal, a couple of months of Foligno, O’Reilly, full time Jake McCabe and some spare change… and if you extend that to all the second round picks given out, a good percentage is renting Ilya Lyubushkin twice and getting broken down Mark Giordano. Off the top of my head. So the stewardship of picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds has been pretty tragic this era too. But luckily they have a prime age core to underwrite these misadventures with picks.

You summed it up in one word. It's been a debacle.

Crazy to see it all summarized. When do we get sane common sense leadership here in Toronto. It's been since Stavro owned the team. 4 conference finals in 10 years. These guys have done nothing in 8.

 

[1specter]

Yeah that seems fair, I suppose instead of saying no expectations I should have said low expectations.

I don't think that changes the rest of what I said, to each his own etc. Both eras have really sucked, hard to choose between them in that sense, at least for me.

Oddly enough, I actually have more of a soft spot for those shitty early 2010s Leaf teams than I do this one. Maybe it's cause I was still in my teenage and early 20s years and naive with hopium, but there was something endearing about some of the rag tag bunch of guys like Grabovski, MacArthur, Kulemin, Schenn, etc. Then you had Phil who was a total character but also one of the most fun players to watch at his best.

These guys have the world at their feet meanwhile and have yet to make anything of it while commanding more $$$ every year. If you told me the summer we signed JT that by the end of his contract we'd have only won one playoff round I would've laughed you out of the building.

It’s funny. If you tallied up what the Leafs got back for their 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023 and 2025 first round picks, it’s basically the Muzzin trade, the Marleau debacle, a Mrazek disposal, a couple of months of Foligno, O’Reilly, full time Jake McCabe and some spare change… and if you extend that to all the second round picks given out, a good percentage is renting Ilya Lyubushkin twice and getting broken down Mark Giordano. Off the top of my head. So the stewardship of picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds has been pretty tragic this era too. But luckily they have a prime age core to underwrite these misadventures with picks.

Jesus when you put it that way it's terrible. We're fortunate Muzzin and McCabe even gave us the good years they did.

 

[ITM]

Jesus when you put it that way it's terrible. We're fortunate Muzzin and McCabe even gave us the good years they did.

Just goes to show, slow, measured improvement wins the day.

Steve Yzerman was getting an ocean of unearned flack because of the appearance of a stagnating program under LaLonde. In comes a new coach and a win-streak mends all wounds and faith is suddenly restored in the Yzerplan.

It just goes to show, rare is the GM that will weather outside pressure for quicker development.

Hopefully there's a culture shift toward that type of resilience, if it's possible in this market.

 

[Hellcat]

Pro Tip… he’d create more space for himself if he did hit guys and stop playing scared. When you create a little space and stop playing scared you might be able to make passes that create goals. More space in game 7s could mean more series wins.

As a rule: yes or no, the more a player plays an aggressive physical game, the more that player is likely to take a PIM than a player who is less physical? Playoffs are won on Special games, yes or no? Defence wins Championships, yes or no? The more player goes for these hits, the more likely he will be out of position defensively? Is creating time and space an issue for Marner?

So if I'm hearing you correctly you are willing to take the risk of giving up more PIM's in the playoffs, to create time and space for a player who rarely has issue creating time and space, laying out hits, that will potentially put him out of good defensive posture, which then allow the other team to have better scoring chances? Did I get that right? Is this an improvement?

 

[leafs in five]

Marner is a nifty shinny hockey player that does crap we joked about and did on a pond for fun. That's it. He is an attraction like Harlem Globetrotters or what have you. He can't compete in a legit hard hitting tightly contested serious hockey game. It's like Pascal Siakim and why we dumped him for not being able to perform in the playoffs without a Kawhi.

You're free to feel differently but the results don't lie. The stats aren't fake. He is an elimination game fader and as far as games 5 6 7 in any series his performance are less than a Kerfoot.

You know who signs Marner? A stupid manager worried about his job and needs a star attraction to do kids moves on the ice with higher degree of success than everyone else that does that junk. Most just let it die in Jr's.

There are now all kinds of kids doing lame Marner moves trying to replicate his lame hockey gimmick. Guy is going to ruin serious athletes with NHL aspirations ffs

Pascal Siakam now there was a guy who played like he was on the Harlem Globetrotters

 

[Hellcat]

View attachment 976208

I think it's a lot like team USA where it's more of a 1A and 1B type of lines.

It's more like 1A, 1B, 1C, 2A....

What I found interesting is Cooper said he spoke with players over the Summer and through the season, asked them which players they wanted to play with... McDavid playing with Mitch speaks volumes about who the greatest player in hockey wants on his line and make no mistake if McDavid had an issue with Mitch being there, Mitch would not be there.

 

[leafs in five]

Like that picture is pretty much the opposite of how prodigious Marner critic Antropov describes him and his production, which is that he only makes basic passes and plays that any player in the league can make

 

[JL17]

As a rule: yes or no, the more a player plays an aggressive physical game, the more that player is likely to take a PIM than a player who is less physical? Playoffs are won on Special games, yes or no? Defence wins Championships, yes or no? The more player goes for these hits, the more likely he will be out of position defensively? Is creating time and space an issue for Marner?

So if I'm hearing you correctly you are willing to take the risk of giving up more PIM's in the playoffs, to create time and space for a player who rarely has issue creating time and space, laying out hits, that will potentially put him out of good defensive posture, which then allow the other team to have better scoring chances? Did I get that right? Is this an improvement?

Marner has issues with time and space in the playoffs.

Florida led the playoffs in Penalty minutes last year and won.

You can go in on the forecheck and throw a hit. It all doesn’t have to be done in the playoffs. That’s what a regular season is for.

Playoffs usually have fewer penalties called. Defense wins championships and hitting doesn’t take you away from playing good defensive. If you hit guys you can separate guys from pucks. Physical contact breaks up cycles.

 

[Hellcat]

Cooper is smart. If I was Cooper I would keep the job opportunity open for myself to make 12m a year in crazy town Toronto too!

You do understand that when you work in a field and there is a lot of turnover with execs and managers jumping ship to competitors you never shit talk them in the media right. You may need to work with the guy that destroyed Babcock one day you know that right. He is going with the flow and perception.

Come on mannnn

Why is Cooper coming to Toronto or is it Mitch going to TB? Not sure which crazy conspiracy theory you are suggesting?

Is McDavid the only Center Cooper could use for his future devious evil plan to get a job in TO? You could say the same thing if he was paired with Crosby, Point, MacKinnon or Cirelli... no matter who you get at center, it is going to be an elite center out of this world player.

You do understand when you have a coach as competitive as Cooper, he's thinking about winning a Championship, tournament, what ever Gold medal is out there... he is not thinking about his bank account, these guys are ultra competitive and have massive ego's and do not tolerate losing well.

Why would Cooper want to coach in Toronto with Mitch anyway, Mitch is a soft overrated guy who cant score goals. Why would an elite HOF coach want to coach a plug? Makes no sense, you can't have it both ways.

Marner has issues with time and space in the playoffs.

He does? He is a point per game player the last three series, that is kinda good no?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Oddly enough, I actually have more of a soft spot for those shitty early 2010s Leaf teams than I do this one. Maybe it's cause I was still in my teenage and early 20s years and naive with hopium, but there was something endearing about some of the rag tag bunch of guys like Grabovski, MacArthur, Kulemin, Schenn, etc. Then you had Phil who was a total character but also one of the most fun players to watch at his best.

These guys have the world at their feet meanwhile and have yet to make anything of it while commanding more $$$ every year. If you told me the summer we signed JT that by the end of his contract we'd have only won one playoff round I would've laughed you out of the building.

I think I might have more of a soft spot for any team I've ever followed than this one. This team wins more regular season games, but the early 2010s team was infinitely more likeable. Which do I prefer? How am I supposed to pick between two incredibly shitty options? Sigh.

 

[notdoneyet]

I think it’s funny the whacko posters criticizing marner for being on the second PP
But crickets with matthews on the second line lol

I honestly hope Mitch goes somewhere else
As a UFA

 

[JL17]

Why is Cooper coming to Toronto or is it Mitch going to TB? Not sure which crazy conspiracy theory you are suggesting?

Is McDavid the only Center Cooper could use for his future devious evil plan to get a job in TO? You could say the same thing if he was paired with Crosby, Point, MacKinnon or Cirelli... no matter who you get at center, it is going to be an elite center out of this world player.

You do understand when you have a coach as competitive as Cooper, he's thinking about winning a Championship, tournament, what ever Gold medal is out there... he is not thinking about his bank account, these guys are ultra competitive and have massive ego's and do not tolerate losing well.

Why would Cooper want to coach in Toronto with Mitch anyway, Mitch is a soft overrated guy who cant score goals. Why would an elite HOF coach want to coach a plug? Makes no sense, you can't have it both ways.



He does? He is a point per game player the last three series, that is kinda good no?

3 points in 7 games last year. Held pointless in 3 of 5 against Florida. 3 points 5 games. Had a good series against Tampa but there was no defensive played in that series. Held pointless in 8 of 18 games.

Theres a few ways to look at that. When you look at the 11 points in the Tampa series then 6 points in the next 12 games that’s a tough.

 

[leafs in five]

I don't think Dion was at all likeable. Wilson was the most dour coach in the league. They had that social media union with those crappy Jays teams that they called Team Unit.