Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[Apex Predator]

Your reputation is pretty well established around here regardless of what you attempt to assert

If they were usually right we would be the KC chiefs of the NHL. 3 Stanley cup wins going for our 4th this year. I wish Dekes was right.

 

[Confucius]

The previous contract and past league situation has nothing to do with this contract. They weren't the ones that stagnated the cap, and the stagnated cap hurt both player and team. The team didn't get as much surplus value as they would have otherwise through those contracts, and the player is now having to re-sign under a lower cap than they would have otherwise. All contracts are based on some level of cap inflation, but they still weren't overpaid. They outperformed those contracts, even at the cap we had. And now they just want to be paid what they're worth, like everybody else.

I have an excellent track record of being correct, but you still never learn.
Also not really sure what this has to do with the different types and forms of points.

Top tier UFAs get more than 12-13%. They tend to get above 14%, with the very top usually around 15-16%. This is more Seguin type money. Heck, it's less than Panarin got.

I'm sure he will. And when that's more than 12.6m, are they going to trade him?

If he gets 12,6 it has to come without a nmc, then trade him,

 

[thewave]

If he gets 12,6 it has to come without a nmc, then trade him,

Absofreakinglutely

 

[Dekes For Days]

Your reputation is pretty well established around here regardless of what you attempt to assert

You say that about everybody that disproves your incorrect assertions. I couldn't care less what you believe. I follow the facts, and that helps me be correct.

There's been one UFA winger in recent years who signed above 14% and it was Panarin

There haven't been many UFA wingers in the top tier recently, but Mackinnon got 15.27% on the same team. Matthews got 15.87% and Draisaitl got 15.91% recently. Kane got 15.22%, as the last UFA winger in the top tier to sign. Meanwhile, Colorado reportedly valued Rantanen less than even the likes of Panarin, Nylander, Pastrnak, Heatley, Hossa, Iginla, Nash, St. Louis, Perry, etc. More in line with the tier I kept telling you he was in.

If he gets 12,6 it has to come without a nmc, then trade him,

If we're signing him (and we should), we're keeping him. He'll get a NMC. It's pretty standard for that calibre of player. Even Nylander got one.

 

[mclaren55]

You say that about everybody that disproves your incorrect assertions. I couldn't care less what you believe. I follow the facts, and that helps me be correct.

There haven't been many UFA wingers in the top tier recently, but Mackinnon got 15.27% on the same team. Matthews got 15.87% and Draisaitl got 15.91% recently. Kane got 15.22%, as the last UFA winger in the top tier to sign. Meanwhile, Colorado reportedly valued Rantanen less than even the likes of Panarin, Nylander, Pastrnak, Heatley, Hossa, Iginla, Nash, St. Louis, Perry, etc. More in line with the tier I kept telling you he was in.

If we're signing him (and we should), we're keeping him. He'll get a NMC. It's pretty standard for that calibre of player. Even Nylander got one.

Yea, you can't really give Nylander a NMC and then omit it for Marner. Unless we are taking a two year view on this, and moving on from Marner in hopes of landing McJesus, it doesn't really make sense not to sign him. The more I look at available UFAs, the more I lean towards re-signing him. If we get him for less than 13 it will be a miracle.

Keep in mind that Marner is still one of the best regular season performers over the last 3-4 years in the NHL on a P/GP basis. He has played huge minutes during that time span as well, averaging over 21mins a game. While I want change, Dekes is right when he points out that change for change sake is a fools errand. I get we are all really frustrated with the lack of playoff success, but placing all that blame on Marner isn't the correct strategy.

We shed JT this off season hopefully, because I don't want a 6-7M 3rd line centre on the team. We need to get more depth, and hopefully with the rising cap and JT coming off the books we can do it. Maybe Minten or Cowan take a step, which would be great for the team and it's cap structure. If we can get a solid two way second line centre, we can slot one of the rookies into the 3rd slot and use the other on a wing. It's not as doom and gloom as it appears right now guys. One of our prospects is blowing records up right now, and the other doesn't look that out of place in the NHL.

We just have to breath, and see what happens this playoffs.

 

[Confucius]

You say that about everybody that disproves your incorrect assertions. I couldn't care less what you believe. I follow the facts, and that helps me be correct.

There haven't been many UFA wingers in the top tier recently, but Mackinnon got 15.27% on the same team. Matthews got 15.87% and Draisaitl got 15.91% recently. Kane got 15.22%, as the last UFA winger in the top tier to sign. Meanwhile, Colorado reportedly valued Rantanen less than even the likes of Panarin, Nylander, Pastrnak, Heatley, Hossa, Iginla, Nash, St. Louis, Perry, etc. More in line with the tier I kept telling you he was in.

If we're signing him (and we should), we're keeping him. He'll get a NMC. It's pretty standard for that calibre of player. Even Nylander got one.

We could sign him so he can get 8 years somewhere else that way we can get something for him, maybe even making it better by eating some of that 12,6 overpay, lol!

 

[IPS]

You say that about everybody that disproves your incorrect assertions. I couldn't care less what you believe. I follow the facts, and that helps me be correct.

There haven't been many UFA wingers in the top tier recently, but Mackinnon got 15.27% on the same team. Matthews got 15.87% and Draisaitl got 15.91% recently. Kane got 15.22%, as the last UFA winger in the top tier to sign. Meanwhile, Colorado reportedly valued Rantanen less than even the likes of Panarin, Nylander, Pastrnak, Heatley, Hossa, Iginla, Nash, St. Louis, Perry, etc. More in line with the tier I kept telling you he was in.

If we're signing him (and we should), we're keeping him. He'll get a NMC. It's pretty standard for that calibre of player. Even Nylander got one.

Get real for a second. There's been ample wingers in recent years who've negotiated with minimal time left as RFA status, and negotiated the primary duration of their contract paid relative to UFA years. Tkachuk, Kaprizov, Pastrnak, Kucherov, etc... None of these guys are signing above 15%, not even close. If you wanna split hairs on actually being UFA vs practically being one, it just says to me your argument is that weak. Rantanen at 11.75 would have been 12.72% of the projected cap next year, that is easily in line with recent winger signing. Heck Gaudreau (RIP) came off leading the league in ES scoring with 115 points as a full UFA and got 11.8%.

And you referencing centers and what they signed for just tells me how woefully misinformed you are about how much differently wingers are perceived value wise than centers.

 

[Antropovsky]

I’m not arguing in favour of Marner being paid significantly more than Nylander. But he’s a better overall player. I’d love matching deals IMO. But with the scales and cap it won’t happen. This team made a few mistakes back during the ELC years. They either should have burned a year of one of Nylander or Marner’s contract the year prior. They drafted well in the first round but it was kinda crazy to think you could have all 3 expire so close together. Personally I think the decision to not burn 9 games for Marner the year before turned out to be a bad one, hindsight of course. The team was bad anyways, give him 10 games and send him back to junior. Would have expired same year as Willy and you could have gotten both at a cost controlled number. They had no idea Matthews would land in their lap.

Better overall player? Marner has scored a 5v5 goal in just 1 of his last 23 games vs a bad Detroit team. He had only 6 5v5 points in the 14 games while Matthews was injured on goals driven mainly by linemates. Now that Matthews came back, and was back to scoring goals only Matthews can score... Marners 5v5 stats have ticked up marginally.

Individually Marner is a very average 5v5 offensive player. It's very evident when you watch the game. He never has shifts where he looks like a dominant player. He is slow and he has a muffin for a shot.

Nylander looks like the best offensive player on the ice many games and sometimes it looks too easy for him. He is an unbelievable skater and has an excellent shot.

Nylander, because of his incredible skating should regress slower than Marner.

I'm not even a big Nylander fan either.

 

[francis246]

Better overall player? Marner has scored a 5v5 goal in just 1 of his last 23 games vs a bad Detroit team. He had only 6 5v5 points in the 14 games while Matthews was injured on goals driven mainly by linemates. Now that Matthews came back, and was back to scoring goals only Matthews can score... Marners 5v5 stats have ticked up marginally.

Individually Marner is a very average 5v5 offensive player. It's very evident when you watch the game. He never has shifts where he looks like a dominant player. He is slow and he has a muffin for a shot.

Nylander looks like the best offensive player on the ice many games and sometimes it looks too easy for him. He is an unbelievable skater and has an excellent shot.

Nylander, because of his incredible skating should regress slower than Marner.

I'm not even a big Nylander fan either.

 

[ToneDog]

Yea, you can't really give Nylander a NMC and then omit it for Marner. Unless we are taking a two year view on this, and moving on from Marner in hopes of landing McJesus, it doesn't really make sense not to sign him. The more I look at available UFAs, the more I lean towards re-signing him. If we get him for less than 13 it will be a miracle.

Keep in mind that Marner is still one of the best regular season performers over the last 3-4 years in the NHL on a P/GP basis. He has played huge minutes during that time span as well, averaging over 21mins a game. While I want change, Dekes is right when he points out that change for change sake is a fools errand. I get we are all really frustrated with the lack of playoff success, but placing all that blame on Marner isn't the correct strategy.

We shed JT this off season hopefully, because I don't want a 6-7M 3rd line centre on the team. We need to get more depth, and hopefully with the rising cap and JT coming off the books we can do it. Maybe Minten or Cowan take a step, which would be great for the team and it's cap structure. If we can get a solid two way second line centre, we can slot one of the rookies into the 3rd slot and use the other on a wing. It's not as doom and gloom as it appears right now guys. One of our prospects is blowing records up right now, and the other doesn't look that out of place in the NHL.

We just have to breath, and see what happens this playoffs.

If Marner gets $13m, how much is that #2C going to cost? I'd rather go shopping July 1 with the $20+m they would gladly pay JT and MM. Hell maybe we sign both of them when they come back with their tails between their legs because nobody offered them more than the dummies at the cash box.

 

[ToneDog]

Better overall player? Marner has scored a 5v5 goal in just 1 of his last 23 games vs a bad Detroit team. He had only 6 5v5 points in the 14 games while Matthews was injured on goals driven mainly by linemates. Now that Matthews came back, and was back to scoring goals only Matthews can score... Marners 5v5 stats have ticked up marginally.

Individually Marner is a very average 5v5 offensive player. It's very evident when you watch the game. He never has shifts where he looks like a dominant player. He is slow and he has a muffin for a shot.

Nylander looks like the best offensive player on the ice many games and sometimes it looks too easy for him. He is an unbelievable skater and has an excellent shot.

Nylander, because of his incredible skating should regress slower than Marner.

I'm not even a big Nylander fan either.

Should have punted both of them after signing them 6 years ago instead Dubas promises not to trade poor out of shape Willie and gives Marner full NMC the last two years of his deal. Love how fast Carolina punted Necas after his contract negotiations this past summer. Instead Shanny keeps rewarding these losers for virtually zero playoff success. Yeah winning is #1 at the cash box.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yea, you can't really give Nylander a NMC and then omit it for Marner. Unless we are taking a two year view on this, and moving on from Marner in hopes of landing McJesus, it doesn't really make sense not to sign him. The more I look at available UFAs, the more I lean towards re-signing him. If we get him for less than 13 it will be a miracle.

Keep in mind that Marner is still one of the best regular season performers over the last 3-4 years in the NHL on a P/GP basis. He has played huge minutes during that time span as well, averaging over 21mins a game. While I want change, Dekes is right when he points out that change for change sake is a fools errand. I get we are all really frustrated with the lack of playoff success, but placing all that blame on Marner isn't the correct strategy.

We shed JT this off season hopefully, because I don't want a 6-7M 3rd line centre on the team. We need to get more depth, and hopefully with the rising cap and JT coming off the books we can do it. Maybe Minten or Cowan take a step, which would be great for the team and it's cap structure. If we can get a solid two way second line centre, we can slot one of the rookies into the 3rd slot and use the other on a wing. It's not as doom and gloom as it appears right now guys. One of our prospects is blowing records up right now, and the other doesn't look that out of place in the NHL.

We just have to breath, and see what happens this playoffs.

I haven't seen anyone place "all the blame" on Marner, just his fair share. It's a pretty big share though and I don't care how many points he gets during the regular season, if he keeps disappearing after 86 games I'd rather go in another direction.

That's me though, I get that he's fun to watch, the regular season matters and even matters more to many people, I'm just not one of them.

 

[34]

He has to go. His contract demands are outrageous. He is a a winger that should be paid less than Nylander.

Treliving needs to ask him for his list of teams he is willing to be traded to, and ship him the f*** out.

Cap space is good, that McDavid guy would look good in his home town blue and white.

 

[ToneDog]

I haven't seen anyone place "all the blame" on Marner, just his fair share. It's a pretty big share though and I don't care how many points he gets during the regular season, if he keeps disappearing after 86 games I'd rather go in another direction.

That's me though, I get that he's fun to watch, the regular season matters and even matters more to many people, I'm just not one of them.

I'd take Boeser and Ehlers for $16m over Tavares and Marner at $21m. This team needs more goal scorers, and you are not getting that from Marner @ $13m and another year older Tavares @ $8m. We have Lorentz, Robertson, Patches, Holmberg in our bottom 6 because we cannot afford better and then we wonder why we can't score goals in games #7s.

 

[TMLAM34]

Colorado, who has won a cup in recent years, has realized you can’t build a competitive TEAM with so much money tied in a couple players.

Why is it so hard for this organization to realize that? It’s been 8 years of failure with this core four and a constant rotating door in the bottom six due to them sucking every penny they can. Then we wonder why we don’t have depth as we scrape the bottom of the barrel hoping someone can contribute.

If we have another disappointing playoff series, I don’t know how you can bring Marner and even JT back.

We should have traded Marner before his NTC kicked in.

 

[Zero1]

He has to go. His contract demands are outrageous. He is a a winger that should be paid less than Nylander.

Treliving needs to ask him for his list of teams he is willing to be traded to, and ship him the f*** out.

Cap space is good, that McDavid guy would look good in his home town blue and white.

Nylander is probably my favorite Leaf but these guys are all overpaid. There’s no reason Nylander should be making $11.5 mill AAV, I don’t even know who the Leafs were competing with. Who was paying him $13+ mill over 7 years in free agency?

Matthews’ contract is a joke. There’s not much else to say.

They should have let these guys go to free agency. The money they are demanding is not out there. Teams aren’t going to sign these guys to stupid contracts and break their internal cap structure.

Marner should not be re-signed during the season. Let him go to free agency.

 

[francis246]

I'd take Boeser and Ehlers for $16m over Tavares and Marner at $21m. This team needs more goal scorers, and you are not getting that from Marner @ $13m and another year older Tavares @ $8m. We have Lorentz, Robertson, Patches, Holmberg in our bottom 6 because we cannot afford better and then we wonder why we can't score goals in games #7s.

both are extremely injury prone, but I'd take one of those guys and use the cap space to acquire a guy like Krebs or Dylan Cozens. We don't need to spend 16 mill in UFA. we need to parlay some of that cap space into acquiring young RFA talent teams want to get rid of. That is the key to success. If the leafs actually can manage the cap space well and buy low on RFA's you'll end up with a much better team as opposed to blowing the load on aging UFA's

Example:
Sign Boeser
Trade for Krebs and Byram if they are available.

 

[francis246]

Colorado, who has won a cup in recent years, has realized you can’t build a competitive TEAM with so much money tied in a couple players.

Why is it so hard for this organization to realize that? It’s been 8 years of failure with this core four and a constant rotating door in the bottom six due to them sucking every penny they can. Then we wonder why we don’t have depth as we scrape the bottom of the barrel hoping someone can contribute.

If we have another disappointing playoff series, I don’t know how you can bring Marner and even JT back.

We should have traded Marner before his NTC kicked in.

I think the plan was to trade Mitch, maybe at least in Dubas' eyes. I think Shanny is the guy committed to the core and that's probably why Dubas became a judas. Probably wanted to trade Mitch, Shanny wasn't going to let that happen.

Jonas Seigel wrote an article after the Florida series saying that Mitch Marner was under the assumption that maybe be his last series as Maple Leaf. I think even he believed he was out the door heading into July 1st that year.

 

[Antropovsky]

View attachment 968426

The immature laughing emoticons used to Troll is only used by the select group of Marner supporters. Its immature. There is a reason HFboards has a policy against spamming and trolling and you and your group and your trolling make this board worse and probably drive others away. It's a discussion board, discuss or go elsewhere.

 

[francis246]

The immature laughing emoticons used to Troll is only used by the select group of Marner supporters. Its immature. There is a reason HFboards has a policy against spamming and trolling and you and your group and your trolling make this board worse and probably drive others away. It's a discussion board, discuss or go elsewhere.

you spew the same garbage rhetoric everyday. I can put whatever reaction I want. Especially when I'm legitimately laughing at your responses. I've had civil conversations with many people who've disagreed with me all day today. You choose to respond to me, that's the responses you'll get from me.

No body here is that sensitive. People have put that emoji at my posts before and IDGAF. It's the internet. If you can't handle it, maybe it's you that needs to get elsewhere. it's a public forum. I'm not going anywhere.

No one in here is breaking any HF Boards guidelines, you've brought it up 20 times. If there was an issue with anything anyone said the mods would handle it. Nothing we've posted has been to troll you, but rather disagree.

 

[ToneDog]

Colorado, who has won a cup in recent years, has realized you can’t build a competitive TEAM with so much money tied in a couple players.

Why is it so hard for this organization to realize that? It’s been 8 years of failure with this core four and a constant rotating door in the bottom six due to them sucking every penny they can. Then we wonder why we don’t have depth as we scrape the bottom of the barrel hoping someone can contribute.

If we have another disappointing playoff series, I don’t know how you can bring Marner and even JT back.

We should have traded Marner before his NTC kicked in.

They are in the business of making money and do not want to upset the apple cart. Yes, you can make even more money if you win the Stanley Cup but that would require competency and hard work and that is something this organization has lacked since Conn Smythe. They were ready to rehire Dubas who was a disaster and is further proving it in Pittsburgh. Add that they have no clue how to draft and develop talent and here we are. Our prospect pool is 28th in the league, and Dubas mortgaged the future with most of our picks to beat a Tampa team that could not get a save.

This team is betting on 3 first round picks that a blind man could have picked. Hell he probably would have taken Ranta because he did not have connections to the London Knights.

 

[notdoneyet]

They have cap to make them better and Necas is good. That is making the team better

No the cap comes with there own set of problems
Necas is good but nowhere near what ranted is. It’s not close.
Yo use that cap now they have to weaken their prospect pool or their draft picks .

Again you add to Mack and ratenen now get two players that are only half as good as the guy you traded

People have this misconception that you get rid of the 50 goal 100 point guy and get two 25 goal scorers who have 50 points each

The top guy who scores 50 gets you through tough games because he has the ability to break open a game all by himself. The two guys replacing him are just everyday joes who don’t have that high of a skill set

Everyone has an opinion
In my opinion the avs certainly didn’t make themselves any better by making that move. They gave up an elite players

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Colorado, who has won a cup in recent years, has realized you can’t build a competitive TEAM with so much money tied in a couple players.

Why is it so hard for this organization to realize that? It’s been 8 years of failure with this core four and a constant rotating door in the bottom six due to them sucking every penny they can. Then we wonder why we don’t have depth as we scrape the bottom of the barrel hoping someone can contribute.

If we have another disappointing playoff series, I don’t know how you can bring Marner and even JT back.

We should have traded Marner before his NTC kicked in.

Because they are delusional about how good these guys are. Just like some of the fans.

But 100 percent agree with your post. We have the wimpiest front office in the league.

 

[thewave]

No the cap comes with there own set of problems
Necas is good but nowhere near what ranted is. It’s not close.
Yo use that cap now they have to weaken their prospect pool or their draft picks .

Again you add to Mack and ratenen now get two players that are only half as good as the guy you traded

People have this misconception that you get rid of the 50 goal 100 point guy and get two 25 goal scorers who have 50 points each

The top guy who scores 50 gets you through tough games because he has the ability to break open a game all by himself. The two guys replacing him are just everyday joes who don’t have that high of a skill set

Everyone has an opinion
In my opinion the avs certainly didn’t make themselves any better by making that move. They gave up an elite players

Yeah but they got cap and good player with some term back. Sure he isn't going to be Rantanen but I have seen it where a guy like him steps in on a well coached team and he goes from a 70pts player to a 80-90pt player. Could happen and they have some assets to gamble with. I don't know it seems like an ok move under the conditions.

 

[ToneDog]

No the cap comes with there own set of problems
Necas is good but nowhere near what ranted is. It’s not close.
Yo use that cap now they have to weaken their prospect pool or their draft picks .

Again you add to Mack and ratenen now get two players that are only half as good as the guy you traded

People have this misconception that you get rid of the 50 goal 100 point guy and get two 25 goal scorers who have 50 points each

The top guy who scores 50 gets you through tough games because he has the ability to break open a game all by himself. The two guys replacing him are just everyday joes who don’t have that high of a skill set

Everyone has an opinion
In my opinion the avs certainly didn’t make themselves any better by making that move. They gave up an elite players

How has that gone for the Leafs in 8 years? Has he even scored a goal in a game #7?

Yes, Avs are weaker this year but they will be stronger next year and beyond because they did not allow him to walk for nothing because they made the decision they could not win paying 3 guys most of the money. The Leafs on the other hand will overpay another playoff dud rather than moving him or letting him walk and using his cap space more wisely.

Now we wait to see which is the smarter organization. Canes adding Ranta just made the path to the SCF a little more difficult for the Leafs if they can get to the ECF.