Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[ToneDog]

That’s certainly one opinion.

I garuantee Marner gets more than $11M on the open market.
This isn’t even really a question.



If contracts around the league have ever worked like that you might have a point.

My post is less flawed than it is that you and thewave need to join reality here

Nylander got 13.1 last offseason. The cap is going way up, and Marner is the better player by most accounts, on this team he’s going to get a higher percentage.

You are not wrong. Once they gave it to 88, it was move Marner or give him more than Nylander. His cap % should be closer to Willie's than Matty's IMO, I believe Leafs have set their ceiling at $13m. That is 14% assuming a $92.5m cap. More than fair for somebody who's game is soft, is goal scoring challenged, and has taken lots of heat for his last negotiations and playoff performances. Many Leafs fans are reaching their limits with this core and will demand major changes if they fail to get to round #3. Mitch will be at the top of their hit list unless it looks like he put the team ahead of his wallet IMO.

Gaudreau coming off a 40 g 115 point season and 14 points in 12 postseason games only received 11.82% of the cap x7 years as a UFA. That would be about 11.3 million next season if the cap is 95 million.

I think there is a distinct drop between Draisaitl, Mackinnon etc to Marner and teams know this. Wingers just don't have the same importance to centers and also Marner is a runt and size matters in the NHL.

Your logic is correct except these are the Leafs and they continue to defy logic. Why do you think they have not won a cup in 57 years?

 

[thewave]

Gaudreau coming off a 40 g 115 point season and 14 points in 12 postseason games only received 11.82% of the cap x7 years as a UFA. That would be about 11.3 million next season if the cap is 95 million.

I think there is a distinct drop between Draisaitl, Mackinnon etc to Marner and teams know this. Wingers just don't have the same importance to centers and also Marner is a runt and size matters in the NHL.

Toronto and their fans are expected to double down on dumb choices. It's almost expected that Canadian teams will wreck themselves over contracts at this point..

WN and MM are 10-11% wingers. That's it

You are not wrong. Once they gave it to 88, it was move Marner or give him more than Nylander. His cap % should be closer to Willie's than Matty's IMO, I believe Leafs have set their ceiling at $13m. That is 14% assuming a $92.5m cap. More than fair for somebody who's game is soft, is goal scoring challenged, and has taken lots of heat for his last negotiations and playoff performances. Many Leafs fans are reaching their limits with this core and will demand major changes if they fail to get to round #3. Mitch will be at the top of their hit list unless it looks like he put the team ahead of his wallet IMO.


Your logic is correct except these are the Leafs and they continue to defy logic. Why do you think they have not won a cup in 57 years?

And the fans will justify the decisions that the organization makes. Actually work towards ensuring we don't win for decades more with a smile on their face.

 

[GoonieFace]

You are not wrong. Once they gave it to 88, it was move Marner or give him more than Nylander. His cap % should be closer to Willie's than Matty's IMO, I believe Leafs have set their ceiling at $13m. That is 14% assuming a $92.5m cap. More than fair for somebody who's game is soft, is goal scoring challenged, and has taken lots of heat for his last negotiations and playoff performances. Many Leafs fans are reaching their limits with this core and will demand major changes if they fail to get to round #3. Mitch will be at the top of their hit list unless it looks like he put the team ahead of his wallet IMO.


Your logic is correct except these are the Leafs and they continue to defy logic. Why do you think they have not won a cup in 57 years?

The only Leaf fans that are reaching their limit, are the ones they don’t care about. They will still sell all the seasons tickets to suckers or people with money to burn, who support this embarrassment of a franchise.

 

[thewave]

The only Leaf fans that are reaching their limit, are the ones they don’t care about. They will still sell all the seasons tickets to suckers or people with money to burn, who support this embarrassment of a franchise.

You got it. They are a toy company, a merchandising franchise for hockey lovers. The idea of giving MM 13.1% is sickening. I hated the Nylander deal as well. It's a shame, and not going to lead us to a cup.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Review all the goals he gets and assists he gets and you get to see many are 2nd assists and EN goals.

If you remove secondary assists and empty net points, he drops all the way from 4th in league scoring to 4th in league scoring.

I see you misinterpreted the situation. Sakic doesn’t think Rantanen is worth as much or more than McKinnon, which is obviously correct. So instead of caving and paying like the Leafs do, he actually made the right decision.

I understand the situation. Sakic doesn't think Rantanen is worth as much or more than MacKinnon. Makes sense. But Sakic also doesn't think that Rantanen is worth a decent amount less than Mackinnon. That also makes sense, given all the reasons I've given you for years, but contradicts how some here perceive him.

And while I understand Colorado's concern about being able to bridge the gap between his actual impact and his perception of his own worth (an issue we don't have with Marner), it is far from clear that they made the right decision. The cap is skyrocketing, Rantanen liked being there and seemed willing to work with them, and yet they just lost one of their best players for an underwhelming return; making their team worse, and damaging their contending window while right in the middle of it.

He was traded because Colorado has obviously set an internal cap and he didn't fit under it.

He was traded because Colorado didn't value him as much as some posters here, despite all the raw points, and the cup, and the top-10 all-time playoff production that this place uses without context to pump him up.

You think Colorado is going to trade Maker when the cap is 100m+ and he justifiably wants more than 12.6? Of course not. Because raw cap hit internal caps aren't a real thing. It's nothing more than a negotiating tactic for players that shouldn't surpass it anyway, and it gets tossed aside really fast when it threatens keeping somebody you actually value.

 

[Antropovsky]

You are not wrong. Once they gave it to 88, it was move Marner or give him more than Nylander. His cap % should be closer to Willie's than Matty's IMO, I believe Leafs have set their ceiling at $13m. That is 14% assuming a $92.5m cap. More than fair for somebody who's game is soft, is goal scoring challenged, and has taken lots of heat for his last negotiations and playoff performances. Many Leafs fans are reaching their limits with this core and will demand major changes if they fail to get to round #3. Mitch will be at the top of their hit list unless it looks like he put the team ahead of his wallet IMO.


Your logic is correct except these are the Leafs and they continue to defy logic. Why do you think they have not won a cup in 57 years?

Treliving has made some interesting comments. With Nylander, Treliving gushed about wanted to sign him... with Marner it's completely different. Have to believe the rumors that there was someone from Bell who wanted these guys treated like kings and pampered and Treliving followed the orders. Things have clearly shifted since Rogers bought out Bell. Then of course Pelley is hired and proclaims we aren't here to sell jerseys. Definitely appears there was a philosophy shift. Which is what I believe Friedman speculated that there was alot of friction between Bell and Rogers over moving core players.

Additionally from a business stand point... Rogers has to be keeping an eye on Mcdavid. They just bought out Bell and Mcdavid makes this a incredible savvy business move for them very quickly. They need the cap flexibility to get that done.

Once they sign Marner, they are locked into this core until their cup window closes.

 

[IPS]

He was traded because Colorado didn't value him as much as some posters here, despite all the raw points, and the cup, and the top-10 all-time playoff production that this place uses without context to pump him up.

You're literally the only person on this site who uses that low IQ term "raw points". There's no "raw" or "true" or whatever points, they're just points. And truth be told everything on here is just opinions and speculations regarding Rantanen, nobody actually knows what went on or how Colorado did value Rantanen - especially not you.

Friedman and LeBrun also reiterated that they were pretty sure Colorado has their internal cap set at Mackinnon's wage too, will happily trust them over Dubas chatGPT bot.

 

[Antropovsky]

You are not wrong. Once they gave it to 88, it was move Marner or give him more than Nylander. His cap % should be closer to Willie's than Matty's IMO, I believe Leafs have set their ceiling at $13m. That is 14% assuming a $92.5m cap. More than fair for somebody who's game is soft, is goal scoring challenged, and has taken lots of heat for his last negotiations and playoff performances. Many Leafs fans are reaching their limits with this core and will demand major changes if they fail to get to round #3. Mitch will be at the top of their hit list unless it looks like he put the team ahead of his wallet IMO.


Your logic is correct except these are the Leafs and they continue to defy logic. Why do you think they have not won a cup in 57 years?

Nylander dominates the opponent while playing with 3rd and 4th line players and no stars. Marner doesnt ever look dominant despite playing with Matthews or Tavares (when Matthews is injured).

Marner is better defensively, but he also disappears much more significantly when games become physical.

I'm not a huge fan of either player, but if I had to choose between them, I'd choose Nylander.

 

[Confucius]

Treliving has made some interesting comments. With Nylander, Treliving gushed about wanted to sign him... with Marner it's completely different. Have to believe the rumors that there was someone from Bell who wanted these guys treated like kings and pampered and Treliving followed the orders. Things have clearly shifted since Rogers bought out Bell. Then of course Pelley is hired and proclaims we aren't here to sell jerseys. Definitely appears there was a philosophy shift. Which is what I believe Friedman speculated that there was alot of friction between Bell and Rogers over moving core players.

Additionally from a business stand point... Rogers has to be keeping an eye on Mcdavid. They just bought out Bell and Mcdavid makes this a incredible savvy business move for them very quickly. They need the cap flexibility to get that done.

Once they sign Marner, they are locked into this core until their cup window closes.

If Mitch gets a raise we will not win, we just won’t have the cash to get secondary help. Knies raise will take up the cap increase.

 

[IPS]

Toronto and their fans are expected to double down on dumb choices. It's almost expected that Canadian teams will wreck themselves over contracts at this point..

WN and MM are 10-11% wingers. That's it

Nikita Kucherov came off a 100 point season, 3rd in league scoring, 39 goals, Tampa had an ECF appearance with Kucherov a PPG in the playoffs, and they managed to get Kucherov for 11.66% of the cap

Now we got Marner in the position where he'll be getting his 3rd contract, he hasn't accomplished a fraction of what Kucherov has, and yet we're probably going to give 1.5-2% more of the cap than Kucherov got.

It's just pure madness when you put everything into perspective. No logic whatsoever.

 

[Antropovsky]

If Mitch gets a raise we will not win, we just won’t have the cash to get secondary help. Knies raise will take up the cap increase.

Yea it's a never ending cycle, cap goes up, core get raises to take cap away. Nylander, next Tavares gets less and Knies gets a raise. Matthews is on a short deal so it's gonna happen again. Woll is gonna get a substantial raise on his next deal.

The cupboard is pretty empty too. So no immediate help coming.

Shi$%& position.

 

[thewave]

Yea it's a never ending cycle, cap goes up, core get raises to take cap away. Nylander, next Tavares gets less and Knies gets a raise. Matthews is on a short deal so it's gonna happen again. Woll is gonna get a substantial raise on his next deal.

The cupboard is pretty empty too. So no immediate help coming.

Shi$%& position.

The core players feel entitled to consume almost all the cap increase and leave nothing for the depth players.

Talk about salt on the wound. If I were a depth player enduring this whine show and saw Mitch get mugged on the Ice, I may honestly fly by and that would be very telling how the culture and closeness in the room is right now. I imagine there are players that feel like these players are greedy as hell and so why bother. That's a toxic room. I could see it being the case.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Yea it's a never ending cycle, cap goes up, core get raises to take cap away. Nylander, next Tavares gets less and Knies gets a raise. Matthews is on a short deal so it's gonna happen again. Woll is gonna get a substantial raise on his next deal.

The cupboard is pretty empty too. So no immediate help coming.

Shi$%& position.

The ownership and Shanahan is in control and decided that this is what they want.

 

[IPS]

The core players feel entitled to consume almost all the cap increase and leave nothing for the depth players.

Talk about salt on the wound. If I were a depth player enduring this whine show and saw Mitch get mugged on the Ice, I may honestly fly by and that would be very telling how the culture and closeness in the room is right now. I imagine there are players that feel like these players are greedy as hell

Really says something about the mentality of the team that when the cap rises all they're thinking about is more money in their pockets, not how much more the team could be improved so they could actually win something.

Teams who've won cups like Tampa and Colorado don't seem to tolerate their players doing this. With the history Stammer had with the Lightning I remember back in the summer people were so shocked and anguished how Tampa could possibly treat their long-time captain / team canada alumni like that but the management is very adamant on nobody putting money over the team (and this was also with Stamkos coming off a great year, much like w'e're seeing with Tavares this year). Ditto with what we just saw with Colorado.

 

[Confucius]

The core players feel entitled to consume almost all the cap increase and leave nothing for the depth players.

Talk about salt on the wound. If I were a depth player enduring this whine show and saw Mitch get mugged on the Ice, I may honestly fly by and that would be very telling how the culture and closeness in the room is right now. I imagine there are players that feel like these players are greedy as hell and so why bother. That's a toxic room. I could see it being the case.

Ideal situation have a full team of 4 to 6 million dollar guys.

 

[ToneDog]

Nylander dominates the opponent while playing with 3rd and 4th line players and no stars. Marner doesnt ever look dominant despite playing with Matthews or Tavares (when Matthews is injured).

Marner is better defensively, but he also disappears much more significantly when games become physical.

I'm not a huge fan of either player, but if I had to choose between them, I'd choose Nylander.

Nylander is a 40+ goal scorer in his sleep. Easy choice, unless Marner is willing to take $8m.

If Mitch gets a raise we will not win, we just won’t have the cash to get secondary help. Knies raise will take up the cap increase.

IIRC my math says they need at least $11m to bring back this cast.

 

[ToneDog]

Ideal situation have a full team of 4 to 6 million dollar guys.

No. Not ideal situation is to have 4 forwards who cannot deliver when the shit hits the fan making 50+% of the cap and the remaining forwards making a fraction of their money. Haves and have nots does not work with these 4 forwards. One playoff series win in six years is enough proof for me.

 

[thewave]

Ideal situation have a full team of 4 to 6 million dollar guys.

I used to think like that and then I changed it a bit. For example if I had any way to slice the 46-50 or so million we pay our top guys.

10M at G (if you want to keep Vezina types around)

10M at D. Need a Norris level workhorse.
10M at D. Another top defender if possible


10M at C.
10M at 2C

I don't really care much about wingers. Good Cs make good wingers all the time so I would want 2 really good Cs.

I would the want 2 really good Ds and obviously a top rate G. If we had that sort of makeup and good team character, they'd do well.

So basically we should keep Matthews and get McDavid. Hope Stolarz or Woll are legit and figure a way to improve the D.

Wishful thinking I know. Just for fun though.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Just to also clarify, Dubas mentioned that the organization wanted to go mid term with all those guys to give both the players and the team more “flexibility”. Based on Dubas’ comments, I doubt the team wanted 8 years for either Nylander or Marner incase they wanted to move off of them.

Ideally, the team wanted 8 years. And while it certainly wasn't to "screw over the Leafs organization" like Mess falsely claimed, the players (outside maybe Nylander, who wanted security and stability after moving a lot through his childhood) wanted less term; likely due to a feeling that they were mistreated and their earning potential was abnormally neutered by Babcock through their ELCs. Also because the cap was projected to skyrocket right after their signings.

The players and team compromised on 5-6 year terms (the most common high end post-ELC terms in the cap era). The "flexibility" being referenced was cap flexibility for the team to build around them (as 8 year contracts would have been more costly), and flexibility for the players to reevaluate their situation and alignment with the cap prior to 8 years.

 

[Aashir]

I’m not sure how anyone can defend this, but I’m sure they can spin it somehow. It’s quite disturbing

I mean…I’ll give it a shot

In his last 16 games nylander has
5 goals 7 assists 12 points

Marner has
5 goals 18 assists 23 points

So Marner has 1.5x the assists and the same amount of goals

 

[Hallonbroder]

Gaudreau coming off a 40 g 115 point season and 14 points in 12 postseason games only received 11.82% of the cap x7 years as a UFA. That would be about 11.3 million next season if the cap is 95 million.

I think there is a distinct drop between Draisaitl, Mackinnon etc to Marner and teams know this. Wingers just don't have the same importance to centers and also Marner is a runt and size matters in the NHL.

You say ”teams know this”, but Leafs doesn’t

I mean…I’ll give it a shot

In his last 16 games nylander has
5 goals 7 assists 12 points

Marner has
5 goals 18 assists 23 points

So Marner has 1.5x the assists and the same amount of goals

I mean, when you’re cherrypicking stats like that, I bet you can find better goalscorers out there than Ovie, historically. Finding it doesn’t make it true

 

[Antropovsky]

I used to think like that and then I changed it a bit. For example if I had any way to slice the 46-50 or so million we pay our top guys.

10M at G (if you want to keep Vezina types around)

10M at D. Need a Norris level workhorse.
10M at D. Another top defender if possible


10M at C.
10M at 2C

I don't really care much about wingers. Good Cs make good wingers all the time so I would want 2 really good Cs.

I would the want 2 really good Ds and obviously a top rate G. If we had that sort of makeup and good team character, they'd do well.

So basically we should keep Matthews and get McDavid. Hope Stolarz or Woll are legit and figure a way to improve the D.

Wishful thinking I know. Just for fun though.

Watching wingers stand around in the defensive zone while Centers are battling down low with defenders is the first clue that Wingers serve much less purpose. Not to mention the critical importance of centers on faceoffs that can swing games as well.

Babcock once said that wingers can nearly fall asleep in the dzone..because they have so little responsibility lol.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You're literally the only person on this site who uses that low IQ term "raw points". There's no "raw" or "true" or whatever points, they're just points.

Points come in many different types, and can be represented in many different forms. Raw points refers to the accumulated overall total, without any additional information or context.

And truth be told everything on here is just opinions and speculations regarding Rantanen, nobody actually knows what went on or how Colorado did value Rantanen

We know they didn't value him enough to keep him. Everything suggests they didn't want to pay him what actual top tier players make.

Friedman and LeBrun also reiterated that they were pretty sure Colorado has their internal cap set at Mackinnon's wage too

Actually, the reports were that they didn't go above 11.75m; well below Mackinnon's contract. Is Colorado going to trade Makar?

 

[GoonieFace]

I mean…I’ll give it a shot

In his last 16 games nylander has
5 goals 7 assists 12 points

Marner has
5 goals 18 assists 23 points

So Marner has 1.5x the assists and the same amount of goals

Fact is, Mitch has 15 goals all season. In this 16 game stretch you alluded to, he has 2 EN goals and a hat trick against Detroit. If you want to go 13 games before that point, he had 1 goal. So 6 goals in 29 games. Goalscorers are streaky in general, Marner just doesn’t score often

 

[ToneDog]

Nikita Kucherov came off a 100 point season, 3rd in league scoring, 39 goals, Tampa had an ECF appearance with Kucherov a PPG in the playoffs, and they managed to get Kucherov for 11.66% of the cap

Now we got Marner in the position where he'll be getting his 3rd contract, he hasn't accomplished a fraction of what Kucherov has, and yet we're probably going to give 1.5-2% more of the cap than Kucherov got.

It's just pure madness when you put everything into perspective. No logic whatsoever.

Reinhart coming off a 57 goal season and SC win got less that 10% of the cap. Yes, Florida is a no tax state but our clowns are being paid in USD and the CDN$ is less than 70 cents US.