NHL Talk Miscellaneous NHL Discussion CIX: Processing a Tremendous Amount of Insane Information

[freakydallas13]

In the last ten years, which SC Winners were the product of "tanking."

We can't give you a list until we agree what you mean when you say "tanking".

 

[Beef Invictus]

Last 10 years? TB, Pitt, Colorado, Washington, Florida all come to mind. The Blues and Vegas featured prominent tank-acquired players other teams gave up on.

Which winning teams in the last 35 years have featured zero players drafted in the tank areas of the draft?

 

[deadhead]

Last 10 years? TB, Pitt, Colorado, Washington, Florida all come to mind. The Blues and Vegas featured prominent tank-acquired players other teams gave up on.

Which winning teams in the last 35 years have featured zero players drafted in the tank areas of the draft?

Washington? Florida? Having one top player from a high pick (Ovechkin, Barkov) does not a tank make.
Ekblad may have been #1, but he's a run of the mill top 4 D-man, in ten years, highest Norris vote was #6.

Basically, TB, Pitt, and Colorado. TB had only Hedman for one Cup (with Stamkos injured).

So basically you're saying if Michkov turns out to be an elite forward, that's all we need out of a tank?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Washington? Florida? Having one top player from a high pick (Ovechkin, Barkov) does not a tank make.
Ekblad may have been #1, but he's a run of the mill top 4 D-man, in ten years, highest Norris vote was #6.

Basically, TB, Pitt, and Colorado. TB had only Hedman for one Cup (with Stamkos injured).

So basically you're saying if Michkov turns out to be an elite forward, that's all we need out of a tank?

Yes it does.

 

[freakydallas13]

Washington? Florida? Having one top player from a high pick (Ovechkin, Barkov) does not a tank make.
Ekblad may have been #1, but he's a run of the mill top 4 D-man, in ten years, highest Norris vote was #6.

Basically, TB, Pitt, and Colorado. TB had only Hedman for one Cup (with Stamkos injured).

So basically you're saying if Michkov turns out to be an elite forward, that's all we need out of a tank?

See, this is why I asked. You ask for a list of teams that tanked and won, then use your own definition of "tanked" to arbitrarily exclude valid answers.

Washington absolutely tanked to get Ovi. They picked in the top 5 three of those four years, and were awful in 2004 to get either one of Ovi or Malkin.

They probably would have tanked for Sid in 05 too if not for the lockout lottery.

 

[deadhead]

We already have Michkov, we don't need to tank anymore.
We do need to keep adding assets.
Ideally a top 6 two way center with speed and a mobile top 4 defenseman.
Another goalie or two for the pipeline and more depth.

Somethings can be picked up in trades/FA, like a PP QB1 type who plays on the 3rd pair.
Or a top PK guy who plays on the 4th line.
These are relatively cheap.

 

[freakydallas13]

We already have Michkov, we don't need to tank anymore.
We do need to keep adding assets.
Ideally a top 6 two way center with speed and a mobile top 4 defenseman.
Another goalie or two for the pipeline and more depth.

Somethings can be picked up in trades/FA, like a PP QB1 type who plays on the 3rd pair.
Or a top PK guy who plays on the 4th line.
These are relatively cheap.

Maybe, but "we don't need to tank we have enough talent" and "tanking doesn't work how many teams in the last 10 years win a cup via tanking?" are entirely different arguments.

Also, I can't disagree enough that Michkov is enough. This team plus a top 6 center, a top 4 damn, and better goaltending is not a Stanley Cup contender. That's just more of the Hextall era "well maybe we'll make the playoffs and win a round" style team we've seen since 2012.

More middling talent isn't the answer. More elite talent is.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

We already have Michkov, we don't need to tank anymore.
We do need to keep adding assets.
Ideally a top 6 two way center with speed and a mobile top 4 defenseman.
Another goalie or two for the pipeline and more depth.

Somethings can be picked up in trades/FA, like a PP QB1 type who plays on the 3rd pair.
Or a top PK guy who plays on the 4th line.
These are relatively cheap.

Vegas was much farther along the path to consistent contender status and still had to make massive moves for an elite player in Eichel, maybe this generation's best defensive winger in Stone, and career top pair defenseman in Pietrangelo before they actually went on to win something.

Just having Michkov is never going to be enough. Building a core that ages with him is the best chance the Flyers have to be competitive and that still might not be enough with depth additions. Depth additions on their own is a strategy that will keep this franchise in purgatory.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

“We already have Michkov.”

Woof.

That is 4000% the line of thinking that the Flyers have and it will 4000% blow up in their face. It’s not enough. It will never be enough. Michkov isn’t THAT player that is transcendent.

 

[BigToe]

Looks like Nemec is a little frustrated to be in the AHL right now. Danny boy should be all over that.

 

[freakydallas13]

“We already have Michkov.”

Woof.

That is 4000% the line of thinking that the Flyers have and it will 4000% blow up in their face. It’s not enough. It will never be enough. Michkov isn’t THAT player that is transcendent.

No one is that player. This team could add McDavid right now and still not be a serious contender. Laughable to think Bonk and Luchanko are what's going to get this team over the hump, never mind penciling them in as a top 4 damn and top 6 center respectively at all at this point.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Looks like Nemec is a little frustrated to be in the AHL right now. Danny boy should be all over that.

"Well, when you look at our defense, you have it right. I think Simon Nemec is gonna be a great player, and he's someone we considered strongly. But with Oliver Bonk, Spencer Gill, Travis Sanheim – at some point, it gets tough to go with another guy that plays the right side. But he’s a fantastic player."

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

Last 10 years? TB, Pitt, Colorado, Washington, Florida all come to mind. The Blues and Vegas featured prominent tank-acquired players other teams gave up on.

Which winning teams in the last 35 years have featured zero players drafted in the tank areas of the draft?

Are you trying to infer that teams need skill to win the Cup? You can't grit your way to a championship?

 

[Magua]

“We already have Michkov.”

Woof.

That is 4000% the line of thinking that the Flyers have and it will 4000% blow up in their face. It’s not enough. It will never be enough. Michkov isn’t THAT player that is transcendent.

I remember a year and change ago that Michkov plus 1Cutter were enough. We mocked that, but that’s the imagined baseline they set. Now, they’re going backwards from that, not a single young NHL talent has progressed, their most recent top two prospects are future depth players, and lo and behold it’s still enough top talent! #blessed

 

[Curufinwe]

Gauthier looks like a wing first, second and third and yet they were talking him up as a center like he was Carter or BSchenn.

 

[Strawberry Fields]

See, this is why I asked. You ask for a list of teams that tanked and won, then use your own definition of "tanked" to arbitrarily exclude valid answers.

Washington absolutely tanked to get Ovi. They picked in the top 5 three of those four years, and were awful in 2004 to get either one of Ovi or Malkin.

They probably would have tanked for Sid in 05 too if not for the lockout lottery.

Washington traded Bondra, Robert Lang (who was leading the NHL in points at the time, iirc), Jagr (who admittedly wasn't up to snuff in DC), and Gonchar by the 2004 deadline, one season after making the playoffs. There's seriously an argument they DIDN'T tank??

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[sigma six]

Damn, Ovi even scored a goal against Kolzig. I had forgotten about his brief stint with TB.

 

[Beef Invictus]

“We already have Michkov.”

Woof.

That is 4000% the line of thinking that the Flyers have and it will 4000% blow up in their face. It’s not enough. It will never be enough. Michkov isn’t THAT player that is transcendent.

"We already have Lindros"

"We already have Giroux"

"We already have Michkov"


It all ends one way.

 

[deadhead]

We can't give you a list until we agree what you mean when you say "tanking".

Doing what say Anaheim has done, sucked so bad they've picked in the top ten for the last 6 years, or Buffalo, etc.
Having one or two bad years and picking up a top pick, then heading back into the fray isn't tanking.

 

[Magua]

Anaheim has one of the worst front offices in hockey. It’s almost like that’s a theme with these teams. Anaheim also has Flyers Syndrome with thinking they’re the smartest team. Good thing we acquired their former 6th overall disappointment.

 

[deadhead]

Nemec will be 21 in Feb.
He lost his job to Jonathan Kovacevic 6'5 223 RHD who Devils got from the Habs for a 4th rd pick.
Kovacevic is a UFA next season.

Basically they went with size and defensive reliability over offense.
Suspect Nemec will only be available if they decide to extend Kovacevic.
In that case, they might marinate Casey and move Nemec.

NJ bottom six is pretty bad with Lazar, Bastian, Dowling underperforming. MacDermaid is a stiff.
They could use forward depth for the playoffs.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Looks like Nemec is a little frustrated to be in the AHL right now. Danny boy should be all over that.

Its a testament to their depth though. Kovacevic is a gone after the season and even now Nemec is first call up in case of injury so he isn't in the worst spot as he will transition in a sheltered role. Hypothetically he can build his game on solid fundamentals and become part of the solution going forward for quite some time. Of course all depending on their development team.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Looks like Nemec is a little frustrated to be in the AHL right now. Danny boy should be all over that.

Nemec would be such a massive get. Kid is REAL good. Bonk + Edmonton's 1st for him.

But then you have to think to yourself, with this management, you know he would be playing behind Seeler, Drysdale, Risto, Zamula, etc.

 

[deadhead]

Vegas was much farther along the path to consistent contender status and still had to make massive moves for an elite player in Eichel, maybe this generation's best defensive winger in Stone, and career top pair defenseman in Pietrangelo before they actually went on to win something.

Just having Michkov is never going to be enough. Building a core that ages with him is the best chance the Flyers have to be competitive and that still might not be enough with depth additions. Depth additions on their own is a strategy that will keep this franchise in purgatory.

When Vegas won the Cup:

Top nine forwards were Eichel, Marchessault, Stone, Stephenson, Barbashev, Karlsson, R Smith, Roy, Howden
Top four D-men: Pietrangelo (33), Theodore, Martinez (35), McNabb (32)
Key was Hill playing out of his gourd in the playoffs.

Marchessault didn't start until 26, picked up in ED.
Stephenson was a 4C in Wash, traded for a 5th rd pick
Reilly Smith was obtained from FLA for a 4th rd pick
Barbashev was a TDL deal for Zach Dean (#30-2021) who has flopped
Roy #96 3C
Howden obtained with 4th rd pick

Pietrangelo was an elite D-man in St Louis, but hasn't finished in top ten in Norris since coming to Vegas.
Martinez was solid top 4 D-man in LA, but marginal when he came to Vegas
Theodore, their best D-man, was #26 pick.

Point is they built a good veteran team, a couple top players in Eichel and Stone, Pietrangelo past his prime, and a bunch of guys who were limited but good fits.

Nemec would be such a massive get. Kid is REAL good. Bonk + Edmonton's 1st for him.

But then you have to think to yourself, with this management, you know he would be playing behind Seeler, Drysdale, Risto, Zamula, etc.

If he's so good, why isn't he starting for them?

He might turn out to be good, but he's struggled so far, which is why they brought in a more limited but more reliable D-man.