Minor Pro "Scorched Ice" Markets?

[CHRDANHUTCH]

expect we might add St. John's Newfoundland to the schorched ice list after the demise of DSE AND the Growlers by the ECHL I just got a weird response about Newfoundland/T/R in the Q Thread/FORUM and had the poster realized that the Q had already been in St. John's post MLSE

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Albany, aka "America's Worst Sports Town", is the No. 1 scorched ice market, at least for pro hockey. I highly doubt there will be a team in the MVP Arena anytime soon.

And spare me the BS about Glens Falls being the same market. It's an hour drive. It's the same market for television, sure, but I highly doubt that even 5% of the crowd on a given night (240 is 5% of a sellout at the 4,806-seat GFCC) at a Thunder game are driving up from Albany or even the northern Albany suburbs.

The No. 2 is Elmira, which was too small to support UHL or ECHL hockey and never had a good owner with enough money to do things the right way. The arena was a well-intentioned idea to develop some land and bring some people back to downtown, but between Mostafa Afr, Steve Donner, and Don "The Con" Kirnan, the place never had a chance. Robbie Nichols has had the good ideas and did the best he could, but even in the Federal League, you have a lot of expenses to cover, and a town as small as Elmira is always going to have trouble making it work.

 

[BruinsFan37]

Don't think you'll ever see a pro Men's team in the Tsongas Arena in Lowell again. AHL Devils wanted out and UMass wanted them gone. Before the women's team started playing there, I would have said you'd never see a pro-team there period, since UMass wanted total control of the arena.

Pretty much all of Atlantic Canada can be written off at this point.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Don't think you'll ever see a pro Men's team in the Tsongas Arena in Lowell again. AHL Devils wanted out and UMass wanted them gone. Before the women's team started playing there, I would have said you'd never see a pro-team there period, since UMass wanted total control of the arena.

Pretty much all of Atlantic Canada can be written off at this point.

With the school owning the arena, that's basically a given. The PWHL is ok because it won't really cut into the UML ticket revenue stream and only plays, what, 24 home games, some of which are elsewhere?

Agree on Atlantic Canada. The money isn't there to support pro hockey anymore.

 

[Ratitude]

Sorry but Adirondack definitely gets support from greater Albany area. Saratoga, Clifton Park, Half-moon, Malta, all are northern Albany burbs. Where do you think these folks work, vast majority Albany, Schenectady, and Troy. Some guy "thinks" that's BS lol, he doesn't even live here lol. Good thing opinions don't matter. Albany County is not interested in stepping on the toes of Glens Falls and the Adirondack Thunder. Albany County knows between the Thunder, RPI Engineers, and soon the Union Garnett Chargers will be playing in a new arena in nearby Schenectady. It's too much local competition with well established hockey programs in the area. It's just too much a gamble. Adirondack has built something special, to me making the 30 more minute drive to Glens Falls beats the 20 minute drive drive down to Albany's arena and most local hockey fans who still support the minor and college programs would agree with me. Imagine a guy from out of town whose sources are mostly fake news mixed with his own bias and opinion is going to convince me otherwise lol. Leave commenting on an area for the locals if you want accurate opinions.

 

[GindyDraws]

Oklahoma City is another Scorched market. The main arena is too busy with the NBA to offer quality dates, and the arena that actually had hockey got turned into a movie filming complex. This was despite the Blazers and Barons existing for more than 20 years in the modern era. The only thing left is the Oklahoma Warriors NAHL program.

 

[VaCaps Fan]

Compare this place to the Norfolk scope…

 

[JMCx4]

Compare this place to the Norfolk scope…

Is this one of those reCAPTCHA "I'm not a robot ... Select all images below that match this one ..." spam screening things? I'm NEVER any good at those ...

 

[VaCaps Fan]

Find the Richmond hockey arena…

 

[HisIceness]

Greensboro.

The ECHL Monarchs were a hit. Everyone else hated them, they were pretty much the Broad Street Bullies of that league.

The AHL thought the fans would love an "upgrade" and "better skilled players". The fans didn't appreciate this.

The Hurricanes two-season stint there didn't go well although it gave hockey fans in the city the opportunity to see Gretzky, Lemuix, Jagr, Roy, Broduer, Yzerman etc.

The ECHL Generals were a flop. It's been 20 years since Hockey was in Greensboro. Nearby Winston-Salem has had a few cups of coffee with the SPHL but those teams play in an annex building next to WFUs Basketball and Football stadiums. Not really a recipe for success.

 

[JMCx4]

... The ECHL Generals were a flop. It's been 20 years since Hockey was in Greensboro. Nearby Winston-Salem has had a few cups of coffee with the SPHL but those teams play in an annex building next to WFUs Basketball and Football stadiums. Not really a recipe for success.

For the record, the FHL/FPHL Carolina Thunderbirds have built a solid franchise & very respectable attendance figures in their 6 seasons of play in The Annex (W-S Fairgrounds Arena). So I wouldn't lump that hockey market in with Greensboro at this point.

 

[GindyDraws]

For the record, the FHL/FPHL Carolina Thunderbirds have built a solid franchise & very respectable attendance figures in their 6 seasons of play in The Annex (W-S Fairgrounds Arena). So I wouldn't lump that hockey market in with Greensboro at this point.

They're probably the most popular team in the league, all things considered. If anything, they seemed to have motivated the league to expand South and West as the league originally stuck around New England and the Great Lakes for much of its early years.

 

[CANADIENSFAN90]

I’m still saying Manchester,nh is not a bad hockey market

 

[CrazyEddie20]

I’m still saying Manchester,nh is not a bad hockey market

It's such a "not bad" market that there's no interest in putting a team in the empty arena over the past six years!

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I’m still saying Manchester,nh is not a bad hockey market

The arena hasn't hosted hockey since the end of the 2018-19 season. The ECHL has added six teams since the ECHL Monarchs folded. It is a stretch to even call Manchester a hockey market at this point.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

The arena hasn't hosted hockey since the end of the 2018-19 season. The ECHL has added six teams since the ECHL Monarchs folded. It is a stretch to even call Manchester a hockey market at this point.

Let's not let reality get in the way of expansionist delusion!

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Sorry but Adirondack definitely gets support from greater Albany area. Saratoga, Clifton Park, Half-moon, Malta, all are northern Albany burbs. Where do you think these folks work, vast majority Albany, Schenectady, and Troy. Some guy "thinks" that's BS lol, he doesn't even live here lol. Good thing opinions don't matter. Albany County is not interested in stepping on the toes of Glens Falls and the Adirondack Thunder. Albany County knows between the Thunder, RPI Engineers, and soon the Union Garnett Chargers will be playing in a new arena in nearby Schenectady. It's too much local competition with well established hockey programs in the area. It's just too much a gamble. Adirondack has built something special, to me making the 30 more minute drive to Glens Falls beats the 20 minute drive drive down to Albany's arena and most local hockey fans who still support the minor and college programs would agree with me. Imagine a guy from out of town whose sources are mostly fake news mixed with his own bias and opinion is going to convince me otherwise lol. Leave commenting on an area for the locals if you want accurate opinions.

I said people probably do go up to Thunder game from Albany - I suggested it was 5% of the average crowd, or about 240 people. Do you really, really think there are more than that driving 45 minutes to an hour in the dark of winter or in the snow to go see ECHL hockey?

I lived in Troy for two years of my adult life, and it wasn't the worst place I've lived as an adult. A good owner with sufficient capital and a willingness to do the legwork could come into the Times Union Center with an ECHL membership and do really well, especially since RPI and Union are bottom tier teams in the ECAC and aren't going to be on the rise anytime soon. But it won't, at least partly because the arena management doesn't want hockey and partly because no sane owner is going to throw money down the black hole that is sports in Albany.

It says a lot about the greater Albany market that they saw the four-team, Leonsis-dominated Arena Football League as a big deal, only to see the league collapse because the product was crap. They can't get a G-League team, can't get a hockey tenant, and Union and RPI games are mostly empty. Albany claims to be a "baseball town," but they haven't got an affiliated team anymore. Syracuse, Rochester, and Buffalo all have Triple-A baseball. Syracuse, Rochester, and even Utica have AHL hockey.

It's America's Worst Sports Town™.

 

[wildcat48]

I’m still saying Manchester,nh is not a bad hockey market

You really need to find a new hill to die on. Manchester is not getting a hockey team or any sports franchise for that matter. The city aldermen/councilors held a council session on upgrades for the arena and made it very clear they have no intention or desire to bring in a sports franchise because it takes up valuable booking dates so any hope of wanting a sports franchise is just that. The mayor disbanded the working group to bring to a sports franchise to the arena, and instead is letting the region focus on the NAHL team in Hooksett.

 

[FinnBear]

Threads like this make me realize how much I miss the Pirates and the Golden Age of the Atlantic and Maritimes AHL. Your team coverage was great, wildcat.
I tried giving the ECHL a shot multiple times but it just isn't for me. Last time we left after the second period to beat traffic and weather. Never would have done that at the Pirates game during their Caps/Sucks days.

 

[VaCaps Fan]

1990s middle atlantic echl was amazing...

 

[Andre Poodle Lussier]

1990s middle atlantic echl was amazing...

The VA and NC teams in one division just seems like it would be a brawl fest.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

The VA and NC teams in one division just seems like it would be a brawl fest.

It pretty much was. There were usually two or three fights a game, and pretty intense rivalries where fans would travel with the team. Tickets were affordable family entertainment. Beer was cheap. There was much less competition for disposable income.

It was a much different time.

 

[adsfan]

Dayton is definitely scorched and potentially may never return.

Just a brief history. Dayton started out strong with the Gems in the IHL at Hara Arena. They were one of the premier minor league teams in the country. They did so well that Dayton attracted the WHA and was to have an inaugural team, the Dayton Aeros. The city seemed loyal to the Gems and wasn't willing to work with the Aeros to make it work and University of Dayton was unwilling to add ice to their arena, so they fled. Unfortunately, the Gems too would eventually fold at the end of the decade due to the bad economic downturn in the 70's.

There were a few attempts to quickly keep Dayton alive in the IHL. There were the Dayton Owls who flew the coop mid-season, then there was the Gems 2.0 which also lasted just a season. The 80's were largely a time of dormancy with the exception for a brief attempt in the mid-80's with the Dayton Jets of the low level Continental Hockey League, renamed All-American Hockey League for season 2 before the Jets too failed.

After a few more years, the time was finally right. A solid ownership group brought us the Bombers of the ECHL. People were finally ready for hockey again and they were a huge hit. So huge that they decided they needed a bigger arena. This is where I mark the beginning of the long slow death of hockey in Dayton. When they moved to the Nutter Center, a part of the deal was helping to finance the installation of an ice plant. The Bombers didn't fill up the Nutt as hoped and the owners began losing money from the financial obligations of that ice plant and higher rent. They sold the team.

The new owner drove the team into the ground. He ran it on a shoestring budget. It was during this time that all the fun promotional stuff disappeared from games. There was no advertising. He burned bridges within the community. Ultimately, the ECHL stripped him of the franchise. Immediately a couple guys came in to save the Bombers. They certainly tried their best and I applaud them, but unfortunately the previous owner left them with too steep of an uphill battle and they ultimately folded the team. It's a shame because they did a good job. I'd say the Bombers were averaging about 2,500-3,000 fans at this point.

This would have been a good time to let hockey lay dormant a bit to find a good plan and to let people start to miss it, but in come a couple of bozos to quickly set up shop during the summer to keep hockey going in the fall, creating the Gems 3.0 for the IHL 2.0, returning to the now dilapidated Hara Arena. They already had a bad rep from their restaurant they owned. Non-payment issues and whatnot. Well, the same type of crap seemed to occur here and they were stripped of the franchise just a month into the season. A good local ownership group quickly swooped in to save the team. Unfortunately, due to the way the ousted owners had hastily assembled the team and scorched bridges, they struggled to turn the ship around. They had originally wanted to bring hockey back but were waiting to do it right, so when the bozos before them stumbled in, it put them in the unfortunate situation to just try to save this team and make it work. They lasted 3 seasons. The attendance by this point was probably down to about 1500-2000.

Now would be a good time to go dormant, but the "bad hockey is better than no hockey" people got their wish and in came the FHL circus, bringing us the Demonz (originally to be called the Devils until New Jersey quickly sent a cease and desist.) Now in a joke league with a few teams in a crappy arena in a crappy part of town, we're looking at 1,000 or less per game. After a few seasons, it goes belly up only to have the Berkshire Battalion move here and become the Demolition. By this point the attendance had evaporated to around 200-500 people. Mid season, due to rumored non-payment issues, they temporarily played in a rec rink, South Metro Sports, before returning to Hara. The owner was stripped of the franchise mid season and came in a new owner to finish the season.

Thankfully Dayton hockey was finally put out of its misery. That new Demolition owner planned to return with a new name for the team, but Hara finally shut its doors. After several years of in-fighting between the heirs of the original owner that prevented improvements from happening, the arena just slowly fell into disrepair, losing business along the way looking for greener pastures. That area in general saw lots of businesses close up shop, including a mall and several major box stores like Wal-Mart, which also kept people away. Nobody wanted to go there. Just a couple years after Hara shut its doors, a tornado would ensure that it would never be re-opened.

This leaves Dayton in a bad spot. The reputation of hockey has been destroyed by several bad owners. The only mid-size ice arena is gone. The Nutter Center center is too big. So where do you go?

I think if hockey ever has a chance to succeed here again, a number of things must occur.

1. Hockey needs to stay dormant for awhile. Give people a chance to miss it and enough new residents that never had hockey here.

2. A brand new downtown arena. There were discussions of such a thing at one time, but those have long died and not sure it will ever be considered. Downtown has brought in plenty of new stuff (baseball stadium, theatre, parks, etc.) that brought much excitement. The Nutter Center just has a failed stench to it, so I think the excitement of something new and downtown would likely be more successful for a good ownership group than moving into something old.

3. A top quality ownership group in a reputable league. In conjunction of a new arena, you would want the buzz of a serious ownership group with an AHL or ECHL team in tow. Lesser leagues and fly-by-night owners aren't going to cut it anymore here.

4. The Blue Jackets must win. They must turn it around, become an annual powerhouse, and win the Cup. The success of the Jackets would certainly grow interest in hockey, making people want and be receptive to having their own hockey team in Dayton. Successful NHL teams regularly enhance the popularity of the sport in their region.

Sadly, I'm not holding my breath. Hockey may not ever return during my lifetime here. It took baseball 50 years to return. An arena not in the plans pretty much stifles all my other bullet points. And even then, those other things may never come to fruition either.

UD Arena can't host an ice sheet. The floor area is way too small. You would have to demolish one end of the arena and move the stands back about 100 feet on that end, ruining it for basketball.

You can play basketball or tennis in there. Those were the only sporting events that I ever saw when I lived there in the 1970s and early 80s.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

UD Arena can't host an ice sheet. The floor area is way too small. You would have to demolish one end of the arena and move the stands back about 100 feet on that end, ruining it for basketball.

You can play basketball or tennis in there. Those were the only sporting events that I ever saw when I lived there in the 1970s and early 80s.

With Hara Arena gone, the Nutter Center at Wright State is the only potential venue, and it was far less than adequate when the ECHL was there, which hamstrung an already below-average management team. They never were able to draw enough fans to really thrive.

 

[GindyDraws]

With USHL & DI men's hockey there - plus a healthy youth hockey presence - that small market is saturated ... and I don't mean due to ice melt.

Considering how the Lancers have gone from a premier team to a circus, it'll probably be a college town only by the end of the decade.