Minnesota Wild General Discussion XIX

[AKL]

True, but that just seems like really bad asset management

That's kind of Guerin's MO

 

[f7ben]

Huh?!?!?

Having watched Gaborik for most of his games here, I will disagree with you all day long on that one!

Don't confuse the defensive scheme employed by Jacques Lemaire as Gaborik not driving possession!

I’ve rarely missed watching wild games since the inaugural season myself and I don’t recall Gabby having slick hands worth mentioning or going end to end making defenders miss along the way. I recall him catching passes streaking up the wing and blowing guys away with his speed and having an absolute shanahan level wrister. Fiala is a totally different and more complete while nearly as exciting player. That’s how I recall it anyway.

 

[TaLoN]

I’ve rarely missed watching wild games since the inaugural season myself and I don’t recall Gabby having slick hands worth mentioning or going end to end making defenders miss along the way. I recall him catching passes streaking up the wing and blowing guys away with his speed and having an absolute shanahan level wrister. Fiala is a totally different and more complete while nearly as exciting player. That’s how I recall it anyway.

Gaborik as a 19yro on a terrible expansion team with worse linemates than Fiala will ever have... had 30 goals, 37 assists and 67 points (in the dead puck era). All are marks Fiala has yet to reach as a 26yro on a playoff team. But sure... it was all Gaborik's linemates driving the offense, not him.

Got it.

 

[f7ben]

Gaborik as a 19yro on a terrible expansion team with worse linemates than Fiala will ever have... had 30 goals, 37 assists and 67 points (in the dead puck era). All are marks Fiala has yet to reach as a 26yro on a playoff team. But sure... it was all Gaborik's linemates driving the offense, not him.

Got it.

I think you’re taking my comments as criticism of Gaborik. He was electric and an almost generational talent because of his speed and shot. I just don’t recall him being able to single handedly possess the puck like Fiala can for stretches. Obviously I’m a big Fiala fanboi and some of my commentary is hyperbole but I think Fiala has a ceiling that is much higher than even this seasons performance.

 

[Sota Popinski]

I don’t trust Guerin....I guess at this point I tolerate him. If he dumps Fiala and then we have to watch Fiala put up multiple 100pt seasons because his new team didn’t shit all over him I will never let it go. In fact just f*** Bill Guerin in the face with a hot poker. There I said it. Fiala is the 2nd most talented player this team has ever had and Billy G is gonna piss that away because he’s a f***ing moron who holds little grudges.

He also makes some pretty careless plays at times. I love watching him on offense but there are two ends of the ice and on defense he is a liability. I would prefer to keep him, but given how good he has looked since Boldy came up, we might get a haul for him.

 

[Sota Popinski]

If I was Fiala, I'd probably be a little petty about it, and not be willing to discuss extensions with new teams, just to tank my trade value a little bit.

"If you won't give me the money I want, I won't take any team's money!" is a pretty idiotic strategy for getting a long term, big money contract.

 

[TaLoN]

I think you’re taking my comments as criticism of Gaborik. He was electric and an almost generational talent because of his speed and shot. I just don’t recall him being able to single handedly possess the puck like Fiala can for stretches. Obviously I’m a big Fiala fanboi and some of my commentary is hyperbole but I think Fiala has a ceiling that is much higher than even this seasons performance.

They play different styles, yes, but Gaborik absolutely took over games single handedly on multiple occasions.

You are looking at Fiala's style and saying that makes him more "talented" which is far from the case. Bouchard played a more "Fiala like game" himself as well... still holds the most assists in a single season by a Wild player... but he wasn't "more talented" either.

Gaborik is only surpassed by Kaprizov. Fiala doesn't come close at this point. Gaborik was a FAR more talented player. He had Bure level speed, a Sakic level shot, he was a very good passer... could he stick handle in a phone booth? No... but he was a better decision maker for sure. Granlund could stick handle in a phone booth, but Granlund wasn't as talented as Gaborik either.

Fiala and Granlund thus far are about the same level player. Gaborik was far better and more talented than both.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

"If you won't give me the money I want, I won't take any team's money!" is a pretty Pejorative Slured strategy for getting a long term, big money contract.

Or just say that the discussions can start once I am traded, not before.

 

[AKL]

He also makes some pretty careless plays at times. I love watching him on offense but there are two ends of the ice and on defense he is a liability. I would prefer to keep him, but given how good he has looked since Boldy came up, we might get a haul for him.

Kaprizov and Zuccarello both commit more turnovers than Fiala does though. And yeah, their production is higher, but Fiala is still over a point per game since Boldy got here, so it's not by a whole lot.

42g, 96 point pace since January 6th. Zuccarello is only at a 98 point pace this season, and his goal pace is 28.

So if you're going to cite turnovers vs. production, it's a wash at best (for Zuccarello). Considering linemates, opportunity, age, it's not even close.

 

[TaLoN]

Fiala has played 401 games, has 113 goals, 144a, 257 points.

Gaborik in his first 6 seasons played 408 games, scored 164 goals, 167a, for 331 points. Much of it during a FAR LOWER scoring period for the league.

Fiala is not close to Gaborik's level.

 

[Sota Popinski]

Kaprizov and Zuccarello both commit more turnovers than Fiala does though. And yeah, their production is higher, but Fiala is still over a point per game since Boldy got here, so it's not by a whole lot.

42g, 96 point pace since January 6th. Zuccarello is only at a 98 point pace this season, and his goal pace is 28.

So if you're going to cite turnovers vs. production, it's a wash at best (for Zuccarello). Considering linemates, opportunity, age, it's not even close.

Uh, I'm not sure why you think I would prefer to trade Fiala before Zuccarello. I would not. I'm just reacting to the prevailing wisdom on the topic.

 

[AKL]

Fiala has played 401 games, has 113 goals, 144a, 257 points.

Gaborik in his first 6 seasons played 408 games, scored 164 goals, 167a, for 331 points. Much of it during a FAR LOWER scoring period for the league.

Fiala is not close to Gaborik's level.

To say nothing of Fiala vs Gaborik, all this says is that Gaborik had a more productive first 400-ish games. It says nothing about which player is actually better at a specific moment in time. Gaborik was 25 years old when he had his 83 point season in 2007-08 playing with Demitra. Fiala is on pace for like 75 points with half a year of Boldy.

I'm not offended that you think Gaborik at his peak was better than Fiala right now, but we have no idea what Fiala's peak is, and he's really not that far behind Gaborik right now.

Uh, I'm not sure why you think I would prefer to trade Fiala before Zuccarello. I would not. I'm just reacting to the prevailing wisdom on the topic.

I don't think anything about what you think of trading him or Zuccarello or anyone. I just don't see the turnover argument everyone keeps making, as I outlined above, it's a wash between Turnover Heathen Kevin Fiala and Ultimate Two-Way Monster Mats Zuccarello.

 

[Webster]

Guerin wants to protect chemistry for all it's worth, and what we have with Zucc & Kap is something special.

 

[TaLoN]

To say nothing of Fiala vs Gaborik, all this says is that Gaborik had a more productive first 400-ish games. It says nothing about which player is actually better at a specific moment in time. Gaborik was 25 years old when he had his 83 point season in 2007-08 playing with Demitra. Fiala is on pace for like 75 points with half a year of Boldy.

I'm not offended that you think Gaborik at his peak was better than Fiala right now, but we have no idea what Fiala's peak is, and he's really not that far behind Gaborik right now.

A more produtive first 400-ish game in a lot "less" productive league overall. He did most of that in the tail end of the dead puck era.

Yes, he had his peak in Minnesota post cap, but he may have had a higher peak in a less defensive system, in a much more offensive league, with better linemates.

Fiala has better linemates in a more offensive system in the highest scoring league since the 80's at this point.

 

[AKL]

A more produtive first 400-ish game in a lot "less" productive league overall. He did most of that in the tail end of the dead puck era.

Yes, he had his peak in Minnesota post cap, but he may have had a higher peak in a less defensive system, in a much more offensive league, with better linemates.

Fiala has better linemates in a more offensive system in the highest scoring league since the 80's at this point.

I think you lose the plot when you start talking about scoring eras and team systems without providing the statistical models to show why those things make the difference you say they do.

 

[TaLoN]

I think you lose the plot when you start talking about scoring eras and team systems without providing the statistical models to show why those things make the difference you say they do.

Did you watch the clutch and grab that Gaborik had to deal with? Having players basically water skiing behind him at times they were hooking so badly without anything being called?

I did. It was a stifling era. Sorry I don't have the statistical model to show you, but if you're bothered by that so much, I'm sure you can find one.

Fiala is a fine player... I'm a fan, just as anyone here. Just on raw talent alone though, he's not where Gaborik was. He just isn't. It's not all that close.
They have different skill sets and play styles... but what Gaborik was good at... he was elite. Fiala is very good at a few things, elite at none. Neither was great at defense though, Gaborik was a far better decision maker, though neither had/have elite hockey IQ.

 

[AKL]

Did you watch the clutch and grab that Gaborik had to deal with? Having players basically water skiing behind him at times they were hooking so badly without anything being called?

I did. It was a stifling era. Sorry I don't have the statistical model to show you, but if you're bothered by that so much, I'm sure you can find one.

Fiala is a fine player... I'm a fan, just as anyone here. Just on raw talent alone though, he's not where Gaborik was. He just isn't. It's not all that close.
They have different skill sets and play styles... but what Gaborik was good at... he was elite. Fiala is very good at a few things, elite at none. Neither was great at defense though, Gaborik was a far better decision maker, though neither had/have elite hockey IQ.

Buddy you're making the claim, do the work to support it yourself or move on.

 

[BlackBusa24]

Guerin wants to protect chemistry for all it's worth, and what we have with Zucc & Kap is something special.

Unfortunately that chemistry may not last long before Zucc starts to regress. Sorry but I am going to still take the younger guy in this situation. That is more important than ever during a cap crunch. If Kaprisov is as good as we all think he is then he can drive the line and production just as well with someone else on the other wing.

Unless Guerin thinks he will be fired and gone by the end of the dead cap era and this is his only real shot.

If money didn't matter though.. both would be nice.

 

[TaLoN]

Buddy you're making the claim, do the work to support it yourself or move on.

No, the "claim" was that Fiala was the 2nd most talented player ever to play for the Wild.

I greatly disagree

 

[AKL]

No, the "claim" was that Fiala was the 2nd most talented player ever to play for the Wild.

No, the "claim" was

A more produtive first 400-ish game in a lot "less" productive league overall. He did most of that in the tail end of the dead puck era.

Yes, he had his peak in Minnesota post cap, but he may have had a higher peak in a less defensive system, in a much more offensive league, with better linemates.

Fiala has better linemates in a more offensive system in the highest scoring league since the 80's at this point.

 

[TaLoN]

No, the "claim" was

No...

Fiala is the 2nd most talented player this team has ever had and Billy G is gonna piss that away because he’s a f***ing moron who holds little grudges.

All I presented was counter evidence to the "claim".

There has been zero evidence to support it.

 

[AKL]

No...

All I presented was counter evidence to tha "claim".

You didn't present any evidence to support your claim. That's the point. All you did was make a claim about era adjusted scoring, team systems and linemates. That's not evidence, that's a claim.

Like I said, at this point, either back it up or just move on.

 

[TaLoN]

You didn't present any evidence to support your claim. That's the point. All you did was make a claim about era adjusted scoring, team systems and linemates. That's not evidence, that's a claim.

Like I said, at this point, either back it up or just move on.

I provided a ton. What Gaborik was able to do as an 18yro, 19yro, what Gaborik was able to do through 408 games.

You can't deny that. He had elite skills that allowed him to compete in the NHL as a TEENAGER.

You coming in pages later and only looking at a recent post doesn't make the rest of the discussion irrelevant.

 

[NHL1674]

What terrifies me is BG botching the trade and getting very little for Fiala. The kid is gone. We know that. But Guerin had better get the most he possibly can for him.

 

[AKL]

What terrifies me is BG botching the trade and getting very little for Fiala. The kid is gone. We know that. But Guerin had better get the most he possibly can for him.

I'm sure we'll get character and toughness