Player Discussion Mike Matheson

JoelWarlord

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May 7, 2012
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Halifax
I don't really understand why we need to have a forum civil war about a #3D playing #1 minutes and looking overexposed in that role. No shit he's not a #1, everyone knows this, and we can all see that he has defensive warts. Guhle is the only one of our young dmen who has the juice to play a bigger role right now, and he's Matheson's partner at the moment.

The TOI difference between him and Guhle is entirely PP time and whatever we might think of Matheson he's on a 58 point pace and the PP is finally average instead of terrible. They're not just going to give all those minutes to Guhle so that we can feel better looking at Guhle's hockeydb page.
 

Mrb1p

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I don't really understand why we need to have a forum civil war about a #3D playing #1 minutes and looking overexposed in that role. No shit he's not a #1, everyone knows this, and we can all see that he has defensive warts. Guhle is the only one of our young dmen who has the juice to play a bigger role right now, and he's Matheson's partner at the moment.

The TOI difference between him and Guhle is entirely PP time and whatever we might think of Matheson he's on a 58 point pace and the PP is finally average instead of terrible. They're not just going to give all those minutes to Guhle so that we can feel better looking at Guhle's hockeydb page.
Why not ? Why not try to develop Guhles game ? He's showed time and time again that his vision was superior, that his shot was more accurate, that he was a better puckhandler, a better skater and that he was just plan.. better ?

He's not a #3, he's never been a top 4 D. He's a bottom D.

The problem isn't per say that he's playing too much and making mistakes, the problem is that he's taking opportunity away from players that matter.
Guhle is played on his off side, doesn't play the PP and has to cover for Matheson. That in itself, is terrible.

If Matheson was playing top 4 while Guhle was on the other pair at LD and running his own pair with Savard or what ever and he got PP time, nobody would bat an eye. Matheson gets the Desharnais deployment and it's inexcusable.
 
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Habs

It's going to be a long year
Feb 28, 2002
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Most people wouldn't know a decent D if it smacked them in the face.
the ones that were happy with Arbs in Laval should be forever shamed in a special forum.' Datz wer he bellungz so he kin devlop and Harris is 30x better'
 

JoelWarlord

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May 7, 2012
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Halifax
Why not ? Why not try to develop Guhles game ? He's showed time and time again that his vision was superior, that his shot was more accurate, that he was a better puckhandler, a better skater and that he was just plan.. better ?
I love Guhle but I just don't agree with this assessment. I think Guhle is skilled and could be a serviceable PP1 guy but I don't agree that he has better vision/puckhandling etc than Matheson and certainly not that it's self-evidently clear. Better skater yeah but not in a way that matters a ton for the PP and Matheson is also a very good skater in his own right. I think Guhle is a better overall player than Matheson but I simply do not see Guhle as a better PP talent, nor do I see him as someone that we're going to build around being the PP1 guy.

Guhle could be serviceable there but Matheson is producing very well in that role right now, and I struggle to see Guhle hitting anything close to a 58P pace. It seems perfectly reasonable to me to have 2nd year Guhle focus on the stuff that is going to make him a monster for us (high-end rush defence and even strength play) while Matheson counteracts his own weaknesses through offensive production, especially when Matheson is living up to his end of the bargain by producing at a 58P pace. I'd get the anger more if Matheson was struggling to hit a 40P pace in that role but he's performing well.

I don't think Matheson is a true talent 55-60P dman either, but they're not just going to pull a prime aged player off PP1 when he's 13th in the league in D scoring because in theory Guhle could be 35th and grow into being 25th in the future in the same role. It's not like Guhle couldn't pick that skillset up later either if we end up in a spot where he's the obvious fit on the top PP unit. Matheson himself only broke 30P once before getting traded to Montreal and has had back to back career years in terms of production.
He's not a #3, he's never been a top 4 D. He's a bottom D.
I'd be fine to call him a 3-4, but otherwise this is just an agree to disagree situation if you think he's actually a third pair D.
The problem isn't per say that he's playing too much and making mistakes, the problem is that he's taking opportunity away from players that matter.
Guhle is played on his off side, doesn't play the PP and has to cover for Matheson. That in itself, is terrible.
No it's not terrible. Guhle is progressing just fine, all the other young D are getting important roles, Xhekaj is playing on PP2, Struble is getting consistent ice, nobody is averaging under 15 minutes, I just fail to see the problem. He's taking PP opportunities from Guhle when Hutson is going to end up being the guy there anyway. He's not taking opportunities from anyone else, and it's not like we have prime Shea Weber on the 2nd pair who we could otherwise pair Guhle with, he's going to be covering for Barron, Kovacevic, or Savard too if they put him back on the left side.

Guhle playing on his off side is something I'm a bit iffy on personally, but I don't mind experimenting with things like this during low-pressure tank years as he could potentailly be a long-term fit playing RD on a pair with Hutson.
If Matheson was playing top 4 while Guhle was on the other pair at LD and running his own pair with Savard or what ever and he got PP time, nobody would bat an eye. Matheson gets the Desharnais deployment and it's inexcusable.
So again it really all just comes down to PP time. I don't begrudge anyone for wanting to see what Guhle could do there but I can't get behind the idea that it's some horrendously bad thing for the guy on a 58P pace over the past 110 games to keep playing on PP1. Matheson is 13th in the NHL in D scoring and a point ahead of Erik Karlsson right now. If Desharnais was putting up 70-80 points in his soft minutes and was a top ~20 forward in scoring that would be an entirely different story.

They're giving Guhle a big role at evens and they're giving the PP2 minutes to Xhekaj while keeping the guy on a 58P pace on PP1 as we wait for Hutson to potentially take over that role and elevate the PP unit. Seems pretty straightforward to me and the best way of putting each guy in the chair that gives them the best chance to succeed.
 
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bcv

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Sep 18, 2010
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Bumping this to remind everyone that this guy is just as bad as Gustafsson and shame on anyone thst tries to defend his usage.

Watch the Nyquist goal and tell me hes not a joke
The second his skating loses a step, he's toast. He won't be able to compensate his many brain farts anymore. That's not even talking about the mistakes he can't cover up right now.
 
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Andy

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Jun 26, 2008
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His high risk plays aside, the Matheson trade is a complete steal.

In any event, I don't think we'd get that type of offense unless he was making those high risk plays. What a skater. Love him.
 
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26Mats

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Bumping this to remind everyone that this guy is just as bad as Gustafsson and shame on anyone thst tries to defend his usage.

Watch the Nyquist goal and tell me hes not a joke

He has bad defensive plays in his 27 minutes of ice time. But Gus would have way more, in 7 minutes of ice time.

You can't compare the two.
 
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Mrb1p

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I’m hoping this is deliberately a gross exaggeration for drama because the two aren’t comparable.
No. Theyre both very bad players that no contender should ever ice. Barrie, Gus, MM, Gost, TDA, weve seen the story. Its easy to piggy back production while playing a lot and being f1 as a D.

Whats hard is producint WHILE providing defensive value. It is not something Matheson has ever shown he could do.

Like stop the stats watching one second, and actually evaluate Mathesons game. Its laughable to propose hes nothing short of a train wreck. Not even Aufield makes as many defensive gaffes as him.
 

Andy

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Jun 26, 2008
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No. Theyre both very bad players that no contender should ever ice. Barrie, Gus, MM, Gost, TDA, weve seen the story. Its easy to piggy back production while playing a lot and being f1 as a D.

Whats hard is producint WHILE providing defensive value. It is not something Matheson has ever shown he could do.

Like stop the stats watching one second, and actually evaluate Mathesons game. Its laughable to propose hes nothing short of a train wreck. Not even Aufield makes as many defensive gaffes as him.
I'm sorry man, I just can't agree with this at all. Like at all.
 

Andy

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Jun 26, 2008
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Montreal
Yet Gus has never had as bad a +/- as Mike.
Gus is completely sheltered, plays a fraction of the minutes, and is deployed very strategically.

Matheson is basically being deployed as the team's #1 d-man along side 4 very young d-men refining their games at the nhl level. Not to mention that Matheson just plays on a worse team.

it's just such a gross exaggeration.
 

26Mats

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Jun 23, 2018
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Yet Gus has never had as bad a +/- as Mike.
A lot can depend on the team you're on. Gus gets picked up by contenders to be a pp specialist, not to be the #1 dman on a rebuilding team.

When matheson was in Pittsburgh he was a plus player.
 
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EveryDay

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Jun 13, 2009
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He need to play 18-20 to look better and mostly against 2nd line players instead of facing the other teams top line. Get him off the PK as well.
 

Non Player Canadiens

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Jan 25, 2012
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I don't really understand why we need to have a forum civil war about a #3D playing #1 minutes and looking overexposed in that role. No shit he's not a #1, everyone knows this, and we can all see that he has defensive warts. Guhle is the only one of our young dmen who has the juice to play a bigger role right now, and he's Matheson's partner at the moment.

The TOI difference between him and Guhle is entirely PP time and whatever we might think of Matheson he's on a 58 point pace and the PP is finally average instead of terrible. They're not just going to give all those minutes to Guhle so that we can feel better looking at Guhle's hockeydb page.
there are lots of NHL defensemen playing in the wrong spot in their team's depth chart, and yet no one makes the insanely bad plays (and, to be fair, amazing ones) on such a routine basis. that's the difference imo
 
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Kudo Shinichi

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Apr 20, 2012
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there are lots of NHL defensemen playing in the wrong spot in their team's depth chart, and yet no one makes the insanely bad plays (and, to be fair, amazing ones) on such a routine basis. that's the difference imo

How many of those play as many minutes as Matheson? Matheson is top 5 in ice time in the nhl.
 

Rapala

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Mar 29, 2013
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Montreal
I don't really understand why we need to have a forum civil war about a #3D playing #1 minutes and looking overexposed in that role. No shit he's not a #1, everyone knows this, and we can all see that he has defensive warts. Guhle is the only one of our young dmen who has the juice to play a bigger role right now, and he's Matheson's partner at the moment.

The TOI difference between him and Guhle is entirely PP time and whatever we might think of Matheson he's on a 58 point pace and the PP is finally average instead of terrible. They're not just going to give all those minutes to Guhle so that we can feel better looking at Guhle's hockeydb page.
The only thing I don't like right now is Matheson getting all those PP1 minutes.
I actually believe Arber Xhekaj right now has better attributes overall (skating excluded) to man that point.
But we don't even exploit Matheson's skating on the PP. Yet Arber doesn't get the chance.

If our PP is ever to be really good someone other than Suzuki has to carry the mail and gain the zone.
Suzuki is at his very best when he's circulating which he doesn't do enough of when he is gassed.

The other thing is I've notice a marked improvement in Matheson's end zone play when Guhle took over that RD.
I just wish he'd use the glass more instead of turning back on himself when pressured.
I'm still waiting for that move to work. :help:
 

Galchenyuk15

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Jan 2, 2013
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Why not ? Why not try to develop Guhles game ? He's showed time and time again that his vision was superior, that his shot was more accurate, that he was a better puckhandler, a better skater and that he was just plan.. better ?

For me, it's only some management! On the ice for the PP, I will prefer Guhle over Matheson too, maybe he will see the guy who wear the #20 on his jersey at his right, because Matheson generate way more offensive in open play then when he play the PP.

But knowing we are not there yet and only in transition I can understand the use at the moment. You make Guhle look worst than he can be, you need to sign him soon, and you make Matheson looking 3 times better than he was and improving his trade value. If you want to sign the first one at a good price, not like Nurse after a bad using, and have a good trade value for the other, it's the way to manage the things.

It's sad for Guhle but he was good enough to be try on the another side, it's always good to make some experiment in the situation we was, because we don't know in the end maybe 4 lefty will make it with 2 righty and a lefty will need to play on his bad side. If he comeback on his good side, he will find the game more easier. In the long run, I don't think he will be hurt by the use he have now!

And please don't fall in love with the player we have in the wrong chair in the rebuild mode. Matheson is not a keeper at all. I find that funny people keep making lineup with 5 guys in the top 6 we already have with Matheson in the first spot at d and we can't win 5 games each months. Things will need to change a lot before we really compete because we are not close to be there yet and Matheson will be far away of Montréal when this will happen!
 
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Rapala

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For me, it's only some management! On the ice for the PP, I will prefer Guhle over Matheson too, maybe he will see the guy who wear the #20 on his jersey at his right, because Matheson generate way more offensive in open play then when he play the PP.

But knowing we are not there yet and only in transition I can understand the use at the moment. You make Guhle look worst than he can be, you need to sign him soon, and you make Matheson looking 3 times better than he was and improving his trade value. If you want to sign the first one at a good price, not like Nurse after a bad using, and have a good trade value for the other, it's the way to manage the things.

It's sad for Guhle but he was good enough to be try on the another side, it's always good to make some experiment in the situation we was, because we don't know in the end maybe 4 lefty will make it with 2 righty and a lefty will need to play on his bad side. If he comeback on his good side, he will find the game more easier. In the long run, I don't think he will be hurt by the use he have now!

And please don't fall in love with the player we have in the wrong chair in the rebuild mode. Matheson is not a keeper at all. I find that funny people keep making lineup with 5 guys in the top 6 we already have with Matheson in the first spot at d and we can't win 5 games each months. Things will need to change a lot before we really compete because we are not close to be there yet and Matheson will be far away of Montréal when this will happen!
I'm a firm believer we still have a ton of roster turnaround to accomplish before we can compete.
I also believe we should be replacing as many parts (roles) as possible as quickly as possible.
If that top 6 gem doesn't fall into place which it likely won't. Go ahead an fix as much as you can elsewhere.
The reasons are exactly what you expressed not only "don't fall in love with a player in the wrong chair."
Don't fall in love with a player who shouldn't have a chair on a team that can't win more than 5 games a month.
Having said that the latter should be addressed before the former.
A wrong chair can be moved after all and in more ways than one.
 
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Naslundforever

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Aug 21, 2015
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The only thing I don't like right now is Matheson getting all those PP1 minutes.
I actually believe Arber Xhekaj right now has better attributes overall (skating excluded) to man that point.
But we don't even exploit Matheson's skating on the PP. Yet Arber doesn't get the chance.

If our PP is ever to be really good someone other than Suzuki has to carry the mail and gain the zone.
Suzuki is at his very best when he's circulating which he doesn't do enough of when he is gassed.

The other thing is I've notice a marked improvement in Matheson's end zone play when Guhle took over that RD.
I just wish he'd use the glass more instead of turning back on himself when pressured.
I'm still waiting for that move to work. :help:
Suzuki gains the zone when he comes in right and dishes to Slaf; Caufield always gets pressured and loses it on the left.

Matheson is not a great pp qb though, not the best at evaluating risk and walking the line. His pp1 spot is definitely for one of the kids to take; or maaaaaaybe he gets good at it?

I love when he loses the forechecker going up ice mostly from his zone; feels like more of a 5v5 skill.

He said get rid of yourself, don’t do it. We love you bro.
 
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Rapala

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Suzuki gains the zone when he comes in right and dishes to Slaf
This I know but it isn't the point I'm trying to make.
Suzuki has to skate close to 200 ft just to set up that drop shit.
This is even before he winds up his speed to carry the puck back the other way.
Is this the best use of his energy because I don't buy it.
I want him expending that energy at the other end of the rink.
Someone else needs to take on that task and preferably someone who can remain more stationary.
Suzuki and stationary = bad PP.
 
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Archijerej

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Jan 17, 2005
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there are lots of NHL defensemen playing in the wrong spot in their team's depth chart, and yet no one makes the insanely bad plays (and, to be fair, amazing ones) on such a routine basis. that's the difference imo
How many of those play 25 minutes a night and score at the pace of 50-60 points?
 

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