overpass
Registered User
I've posted on this in a couple of threads before, and I thought I'd put it out there for discussion.
When it comes to discussing the greatest goalscorers, I've often seen Bossy dismissed in this forum because Gretzky was a better goal scorer in their era. I don't think that's true at all -- I have Bossy as clearly the better goal scorer.
I will concede that Gretzky was better at racking up regular season goals in a league where 16 of 21 teams made the playoffs and the first half of the regular season was basically training camp. But Mike Bossy was the greatest goal scorer of his era when the games counted.
From 1978-79 to 1982-83, Mike Bossy played 82 playoff games and scored 67 goals. From 1980-81 to 1985-86, Wayne Gretzky played 75 playoff goals and scored 62 goals. Basically identical. Also, in Challenge Cup and Canada Cup games in 1979, 1981, and 1985, Mike Bossy scored 15 goals in 18 games. Gretzky scored 13 goals in 24 Canada Cup games in 1981, 1984, and 1987. Bossy was the better goal scorer in these highly competitive games.
So Bossy and Gretzky were basically equal in their playoff goal scoring peak. Lets dig a bit deeper to find the differences.
Structure vs Chaos
Bossy and Gretzky were very different in the way they scored their goals. Bossy was a much better goal scorer in a structured game and against a set defence. Gretzky was the much better goal scorer in a chaotic game. This includes unusual situations like 4-on-4, 3-on-4, 4-on-3, etc. Games against low quality opponents. Scoring against the run of play when the opponent is leading.
Let's break down Bossy's 67 playoff goals from 1979-1983, and do the same for Gretzky's 62 playoff goals from 81-86.
Bossy vs Gretzky in their playoff peaks by situation, table 1
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Bossy scored 26% more 5-on-5 goals than Gretzky in their playoff peaks. And he scored 76% more 5-on-4 goals than Gretzky in their playoff peaks! These are the most common scoring situations for 1st line scoring forwards, and Bossy was far more dangerous in these situations against playoff defences.
Gretzky scored a lot of goals in defensive situations, including penalty killing and when defending a lead against a team who pulled their goalie. He had 5 goals at 4-on-5, 3 goals at 3-on-4, and 3 empty net goals. Bossy had 0 goals in all these situations, because Al Arbour and the Islanders had very strong checking lines to play in these situations.
Gretzky was also very dangerous when both teams had 4 a side or less. He had 9 goals at 4-on-4, 2 goals at 4-on-3, 2 goals at 3-on-3, and 3 goals at 3-on-4, for a total of 16 of 62 goals scored with 3-4 skaters on each side! The NHL changed the rule after the 1985 season to have play stay at 5-on-5 after concurrent minor penalties, because Gretzky and the Oilers were so good in these situations that the Oilers intentionally tried to create 4-on-4 situations. Bossy had only 7 goals in these situations. We really see here how Gretzky was the better goal scorer in wide-open, chaotic situations.
Bossy vs Gretzky in their playoff peaks by situation, table 2
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Because Bossy was the better goal scorer against set defences, he scored a higher percentage of his goals while the game was close. 36 of his 67 (54%) playoff goals from 78-79 through 82-83 either tied the game or put his team ahead. Gretzky only had 21 of his 62 (34%) playoff goals tie the game or put his team ahead.
You can also see by looking at scoring by period that both Bossy and Gretzky scored less in the third period. Bossy went from scoring around 20% of his team's goals in the first and second period, to only scoring 10.5% of his team's goals in the third period in games that his team won. I would attribute this drop to Al Arbour coaching to play it safe with the lead, giving more ice time to the checking lines and having the Trottier-Bossy line play it safe as well.
Gretzky's goal scoring also dropped in the third period of wins, but less so than Bossy's. Empty net goals are probably the difference. Third period goal scoring was among the biggest differences between Gretzky's regular season goal scoring and playoff goal scoring at his peak. He scored more goals in the third period than any other during the regular season -- probably picking up some cheap goals late in blowouts and taking advantage of his superior conditioning -- but his third period advantage went away in the playoffs.
Anyway, I'm not saying that Gretzky's goals in certain situations don't count. I'm saying that Bossy was a much better goal scorer against playoff defences in most game situations, and especially when games were close. Gretzky's advantages came in areas that could be taken away by rule changes (4-on-4 / 4-on-3 / 3-on-4), or by facing top defenders (for example, his SH scoring -- half his playoff SHG were against the Winnipeg Jets). Gretzky also got to play 5+ minutes more per game than Bossy and had the opportunity to score in defensive situations that Bossy never played in. When it came to winning games and winning Stanley Cups, Mike Bossy was the better goal scorer.
When it comes to discussing the greatest goalscorers, I've often seen Bossy dismissed in this forum because Gretzky was a better goal scorer in their era. I don't think that's true at all -- I have Bossy as clearly the better goal scorer.
I will concede that Gretzky was better at racking up regular season goals in a league where 16 of 21 teams made the playoffs and the first half of the regular season was basically training camp. But Mike Bossy was the greatest goal scorer of his era when the games counted.
From 1978-79 to 1982-83, Mike Bossy played 82 playoff games and scored 67 goals. From 1980-81 to 1985-86, Wayne Gretzky played 75 playoff goals and scored 62 goals. Basically identical. Also, in Challenge Cup and Canada Cup games in 1979, 1981, and 1985, Mike Bossy scored 15 goals in 18 games. Gretzky scored 13 goals in 24 Canada Cup games in 1981, 1984, and 1987. Bossy was the better goal scorer in these highly competitive games.
So Bossy and Gretzky were basically equal in their playoff goal scoring peak. Lets dig a bit deeper to find the differences.
Structure vs Chaos
Bossy and Gretzky were very different in the way they scored their goals. Bossy was a much better goal scorer in a structured game and against a set defence. Gretzky was the much better goal scorer in a chaotic game. This includes unusual situations like 4-on-4, 3-on-4, 4-on-3, etc. Games against low quality opponents. Scoring against the run of play when the opponent is leading.
Let's break down Bossy's 67 playoff goals from 1979-1983, and do the same for Gretzky's 62 playoff goals from 81-86.
Bossy vs Gretzky in their playoff peaks by situation, table 1
Situation | Mike Bossy | Wayne Gretzky | Bossy/82 | Gretzky/82 | Difference |
5-on-5 | 33 | 24 | 33 | 26 | 26% |
5-on-4 | 27 | 14 | 27 | 15 | 76% |
4-on-4 | 6 | 9 | 6 | 10 | -39% |
4-on-5 | 0 | 5 | 0 | 5 | -100% |
5-on-3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | #DIV/0! |
4-on-3 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | -54% |
3-on-3 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | -100% |
3-on-4 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 3 | -100% |
3-on-5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | #DIV/0! |
Empty Net | 0 | 3 | 0 | 3 | -100% |
Total | 67 | 62 | 67 | 68 | -1% |
Bossy scored 26% more 5-on-5 goals than Gretzky in their playoff peaks. And he scored 76% more 5-on-4 goals than Gretzky in their playoff peaks! These are the most common scoring situations for 1st line scoring forwards, and Bossy was far more dangerous in these situations against playoff defences.
Gretzky scored a lot of goals in defensive situations, including penalty killing and when defending a lead against a team who pulled their goalie. He had 5 goals at 4-on-5, 3 goals at 3-on-4, and 3 empty net goals. Bossy had 0 goals in all these situations, because Al Arbour and the Islanders had very strong checking lines to play in these situations.
Gretzky was also very dangerous when both teams had 4 a side or less. He had 9 goals at 4-on-4, 2 goals at 4-on-3, 2 goals at 3-on-3, and 3 goals at 3-on-4, for a total of 16 of 62 goals scored with 3-4 skaters on each side! The NHL changed the rule after the 1985 season to have play stay at 5-on-5 after concurrent minor penalties, because Gretzky and the Oilers were so good in these situations that the Oilers intentionally tried to create 4-on-4 situations. Bossy had only 7 goals in these situations. We really see here how Gretzky was the better goal scorer in wide-open, chaotic situations.
Bossy vs Gretzky in their playoff peaks by situation, table 2
Situation | Wayne Gretzky | As a % of team | Mike Bossy | As a % of team |
Game Tying Goals | 6 | 11.3% | 10 | 20.0% |
Go ahead goals | 15 | 16.0% | 26 | 21.0% |
1st Period | 26 | 21.1% | 27 | 22.3% |
2nd Period | 19 | 16.2% | 24 | 19.0% |
3rd Period | 16 | 12.7% | 14 | 12.3% |
3rd period of wins | 14 | 13.1% | 12 | 10.5% |
3rd period of losses | 2 | 10.5% | 2 | 12.5% |
Overtime | 1 | 20.0% | 2 | 14.3% |
Because Bossy was the better goal scorer against set defences, he scored a higher percentage of his goals while the game was close. 36 of his 67 (54%) playoff goals from 78-79 through 82-83 either tied the game or put his team ahead. Gretzky only had 21 of his 62 (34%) playoff goals tie the game or put his team ahead.
You can also see by looking at scoring by period that both Bossy and Gretzky scored less in the third period. Bossy went from scoring around 20% of his team's goals in the first and second period, to only scoring 10.5% of his team's goals in the third period in games that his team won. I would attribute this drop to Al Arbour coaching to play it safe with the lead, giving more ice time to the checking lines and having the Trottier-Bossy line play it safe as well.
Gretzky's goal scoring also dropped in the third period of wins, but less so than Bossy's. Empty net goals are probably the difference. Third period goal scoring was among the biggest differences between Gretzky's regular season goal scoring and playoff goal scoring at his peak. He scored more goals in the third period than any other during the regular season -- probably picking up some cheap goals late in blowouts and taking advantage of his superior conditioning -- but his third period advantage went away in the playoffs.
Anyway, I'm not saying that Gretzky's goals in certain situations don't count. I'm saying that Bossy was a much better goal scorer against playoff defences in most game situations, and especially when games were close. Gretzky's advantages came in areas that could be taken away by rule changes (4-on-4 / 4-on-3 / 3-on-4), or by facing top defenders (for example, his SH scoring -- half his playoff SHG were against the Winnipeg Jets). Gretzky also got to play 5+ minutes more per game than Bossy and had the opportunity to score in defensive situations that Bossy never played in. When it came to winning games and winning Stanley Cups, Mike Bossy was the better goal scorer.