Mike Bossy vs Pavel Bure who's the better goal scorer all time?

[Boxscore]

All-time, clearly Bossy.

At their absolute best? Closer, but still Bossy.

More exciting to watch while doing it? Bure x100.

 

[VistamarCroissants]

Imagine Pavel Bure in his prime, slotted into the high-flying, star-studded New York Islanders lineup of the 1980s.

With his blistering speed and sniper’s instinct, how many goals would he have scored alongside the likes of Trottier, Bossy, and Gillies?

It’s a chilling thought for anyone who lived through the 1980s NHL.

PS. That makes you wonder: could the Oilers’ glory days have been cut short?

 

[sr edler]

Bure's bloated usage on those late stage FLA teams is well known, but probably balanced out career wise by his usage on those early VAN teams where Pat Quinn liked to balance his line-up, roll all 4 lines and play Bure regularly with guys like Semyonov, Craven and (Dixon) Ward.

Similarly to what he (Quinn) did later in Toronto where Sundin didn't get as ludicrous minutes as late stage Messier but instead had to hover around with Domi.

This is also a big reason why star players on one-line teams made such a bank in 92–93, like Turgeon (Isles), Selänne (Jets), Mogilny & Lafontaine (Sabres) and Robitaille (Kings) whereas star players on more balanced like Calgary (Fleury), Vancouver (Bure) and Quebec (Sakic) had to share duties with a potent second punch.

 

[Hobnobs]

Bure's bloated usage on those late stage FLA teams is well known, but probably balanced out career wise by his usage on those early VAN teams where Pat Quinn liked to balance his line-up, roll all 4 lines and play Bure regularly with guys like Semyonov, Craven and (Dixon) Ward.

Similarly to what he (Quinn) did later in Toronto where Sundin didn't get as ludicrous minutes as late stage Messier but instead had to hover around with Domi.

This is also a big reason why star players on one-line teams made such a bank in 92–93, like Turgeon (Isles), Selänne (Jets), Mogilny & Lafontaine (Sabres) and Robitaille (Kings) whereas star players on more balanced like Calgary (Fleury), Vancouver (Bure) and Quebec (Sakic) had to share duties with a potent second punch.

I'd say he did give his stars minutes. It's just that he usually used them with 4th liners instead of just having hte whole 1st line out there.

Take Sundin in 02 for example. Sundin got more minutes than any forward at ES and PP. He primarly played with Höglund and Renberg or Roberts and Mogilny but then you have him playing 3-4 minutes with like Tucker, Domi, Healey, Valk and McCauley.

In this regard Quinn was a weird coach. I owuld understand having your star center with younger guys as a sort of a mentor thing and to give young guys some experience and a chance to prove what they can do. Having Sundin out there with 3rd and 4th liners is just a waste.

 

[MadLuke]

I'd say he did give his stars minutes.

There is a difference between being number 1 on your own team and getting good minutes for a stars, someone will be the number one on any team, need to be one.

In 2002:

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Sundin was 47th among forward for ev toi per game, getting Shawn McEachern minutes, in total ice time per game he was 55th.

For a 30 years old that look like could be a bit of an horse and did play 21 minutes like a star not so long ago and was 12th in the nhl in points from 00 to 02, without an other big center on the team, that can feel low.

had to share duties with a potent second punch.

Hull-Shanahan recently talked about, , that said not sure about Yzerman-Fedorov... Yzerman had quite the year and that Wings had Sheppard, Carson for a while.. they were the numbers 1 offense in the league, cannot be not quite balanced. I was going to say Jagr-Francis on the pens (second best offense) had quiet year relative to what they could do, but again what about Lemieux season considering the potent second punch.

Maybe when the gap is big enough (lemieux vs jagr line or Yzerman fedorov at the time, did not change how it went versus the sundin-sakic....)

 

[overpass]

In this regard Quinn was a weird coach. I owuld understand having your star center with younger guys as a sort of a mentor thing and to give young guys some experience and a chance to prove what they can do. Having Sundin out there with 3rd and 4th liners is just a waste.

The point of Quinn's line management was that forwards don't get pigeonholed as "3rd and 4th liners". Everyone gets to play. It's a mindset and motivation thing to get the most out of everyone. Part of this line management style is that the top guys played some shifts with the 4th line types, rather than sending out the 3 worst forwards together and getting them off ASAP before they get scored on.

Quinn's 98-99 Leafs were the perfect example. The trend around the league was to maximize the scoring opportunities for the top line, have a third line of checkers, and play the fourth line as little as possible. Quinn let his whole lineup play, got offensive contributions from everyone, and the Leafs scored 74 more goals than the previous season and led the league by 20.

 

[Hobnobs]

The point of Quinn's line management was that forwards don't get pigeonholed as "3rd and 4th liners". Everyone gets to play. It's a mindset and motivation thing to get the most out of everyone. Part of this line management style is that the top guys played some shifts with the 4th line types, rather than sending out the 3 worst forwards together and getting them off ASAP before they get scored on.

Quinn's 98-99 Leafs were the perfect example. The trend around the league was to maximize the scoring opportunities for the top line, have a third line of checkers, and play the fourth line as little as possible. Quinn let his whole lineup play, got offensive contributions from everyone, and the Leafs scored 74 more goals than the previous season and led the league by 20.

It's also a good reason why he never won.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Is it?

Hell, the closest he got was when one of those fourth liners hit the crossbar with a few minutes left in game 7 of the Final.

 

[FinLurker]

I'll chip in my two cents. I am pretty sure all of this is already said. I have hard time separating pure goal scoring abilities from all of players abilities.

For example in Bure's case his breakaway skating speed and ability to cherry pick in right time was probably the main reason for his goal scoring success and for Ovechkin it would be his slapper from left half wall/point. In Ovechkin's case separating his goal scoring abilities is easy. Bure was better at finishing those breakaways than f.e. Afinogenov or Grabner and was faster and more agile than Bondra. So one could say that he combined those abilities better, but then so did also Mike Gartner. Bure was flashier, but how much of that flash can be counted to goal scoring ability? Is it more pure goal scoring to skate with puck from own blue line on a breakaway than Ovechkin's or Bossy's one touch slapper? Of course, not all Bure's goals were breakaways and not all Bossy's goals were slappers from the point, but if I had to choose one type of goal for each of them those I would choose.

And if I think Gretzky's goals, I see a lot of 2 on 1 attacks where he's either passer of finisher. It's easier to be pure goalscorer when you have a breakaway than when you have 2 on 1. There probably was a lot of cherry picked breakaway goals too, but it was not that common for Gretzky as it was for Bure. Nevertheless, in Gretzky's case I found hard to slice just goal scoring ability from all of his abilities. If Gretzky would have been a bit more selfish, he would have probably couple hundred goals more and couple hundred assists fewer. Would he be greater hockey player then? I don't know.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Bure's bloated usage on those late stage FLA teams is well known, but probably balanced out career wise by his usage on those early VAN teams where Pat Quinn liked to balance his line-up, roll all 4 lines and play Bure regularly with guys like Semyonov, Craven and (Dixon) Ward.

Similarly to what he (Quinn) did later in Toronto where Sundin didn't get as ludicrous minutes as late stage Messier but instead had to hover around with Domi.

This is also a big reason why star players on one-line teams made such a bank in 92–93, like Turgeon (Isles), Selänne (Jets), Mogilny & Lafontaine (Sabres) and Robitaille (Kings) whereas star players on more balanced like Calgary (Fleury), Vancouver (Bure) and Quebec (Sakic) had to share duties with a potent second punch.

ironically the big exception to this is sundin

 

[Gorskyontario]

Imagine Pavel Bure in his prime, slotted into the high-flying, star-studded New York Islanders lineup of the 1980s.

With his blistering speed and sniper’s instinct, how many goals would he have scored alongside the likes of Trottier, Bossy, and Gillies?

It’s a chilling thought for anyone who lived through the 1980s NHL.

PS. That makes you wonder: could the Oilers’ glory days have been cut short?

Bure had worse hockey sense than Bossy, so he would have performed worse with Trottier.

 

[Overrated]

Lemieux > Bure > Bossy > Gretzky

I think most hockey people who watched their careers would agree with that, although some might have Bossy 2nd.

How is Gretzky so low though? He played in the same period as Bossy and he outscored him by a long shot...

 

[VistamarCroissants]

Bure had worse hockey sense than Bossy, so he would have performed worse with Trottier.

Bure had better hockey sense than Bossy so he would have performed better with Trottier or without Trottier.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Bure had better hockey sense than Bossy so he would have performed better with Trottier or without Trottier.

Why is Mike Bossy's ppg so much better then?

 

[VistamarCroissants]

Why is Mike Bossy's ppg so much better then?

Bossy played on the stacked team, one of the most dominant in modern history, during a higher scoring decade in a less competitive league.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Bossy played on the stacked team, one of the most dominant in modern history, during a higher scoring decade in a less competitive league.

Bure played on a good Canucks team that won the division twice in a row, and Bossy played good defense.

Face it, there's nothing Bure was better than Bossy at, except for skating.

 

[archangel2]

Bossy. and the difference is larger when your factor in the playoffs

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Bossy. and the difference is larger when your factor in the playoffs

I can't imagine anyone here isn't factoring in the playoffs when Bossy's involved.

 

[archangel2]

I can't imagine anyone here isn't factoring in the playoffs when Bossy's involved.

around this joint you can never assume. Many posters pick and choose what stats they want to use for discussions

 

[Bear of Bad News]

around this joint you can never assume. Many posters pick and choose what stats they want to use for discussions

I generally agree, but this is the History subforum and I can assure you that people are factoring in a dynasty team's playoff history into this calculation.

 

[archangel2]

I generally agree, but this is the History subforum and I can assure you that people are factoring in a dynasty team's playoff history into this calculation.

Dunno. I have seen threads down playing 99's career

 

[VistamarCroissants]

Bure played on a good Canucks team that won the division twice in a row, and Bossy played good defense.

Face it, there's nothing Bure was better than Bossy at, except for skating.

So you compare the Canucks with the Islanders dynasty?

 

[Gorskyontario]

So you compare the Canucks with the Islanders dynasty?

Bossy was 10x the player Bure was. Better ppg, better gpg, better in the playoffs, better defense, better playmaker.

Bure was a good individualistic player, but never won anything.

 

[MadLuke]

How is Gretzky so low though? He played in the same period as Bossy and he outscored him by a long shot...

Not against strong opponent, playoff and best on best I think. They were about tie in those scenarios.

80-87 when both played, playoffs:
Bossy..: 77 goals in 112 games (0.69)
Gretzky: 69 goals in 101 games (0.68)

Exact tie in pace at a similar volume of games, Kurri was up there with both.

Best on best, Canada cups
Bossy..: 13 goals in 15 games
Gretzky: 11 goals in 18 games

There a good thread that compare how much they scored playing against above average defensive team vs below somewhere that showed them score at very similar pace against good competition.

 

[Sentinel]

Not against strong opponent, playoff and best on best I think. They were about tie in those scenarios.

80-87 when both played, playoffs:
Bossy..: 77 goals in 112 games (0.69)
Gretzky: 69 goals in 101 games (0.68)

Exact tie in pace at a similar volume of games, Kurri was up there with both.

Best on best, Canada cups
Bossy..: 13 goals in 15 games
Gretzky: 11 goals in 18 games

There a good thread that compare how much they scored playing against above average defensive team vs below somewhere that showed them score at very similar pace against good competition.

That's serious cherry-pickimg that still does not account for the fact that Gretzky outgoaled Bossy in 6 of 8 seasons they were in the league together.