Mike Bossy vs Pavel Bure who's the better goal scorer all time?
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Bear of Bad News
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TIME FOR A POLL IN THE POLLS SECTION!
Please don't actually do that.
Please don't actually do that.
BarnabyJones PI
I'd kindly settle for a tall glass of milk.
sr edler
gold is not reality
- Mar 20, 2010
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You didn't bring anything new or interesting to the table, to rebut. It's the same old tired "I think Bure couldn't play under this coach because style" and "I don't think Bure could have had chemistry with Zhamnov because reasons" hypotheticals.
BarnabyJones PI
I'd kindly settle for a tall glass of milk.
Yet here you are, inserting yourself again, as you have in many similar threads (over the years) on the subject of Bure's style of play. I know I don't bother jumping in on discussions/debates over something I find "tiresome".
overpass
Registered User
For those who are comparing stats between Bure and Bossy, I brought up the difference in ice time, where Bure played significantly more ice time than Bossy in his peak goal scoring years. I've gone through a game for each of them and actually tracked the ice time. In each of the games I chose, Bure and Bossy scored a hat trick. Bure played 32 minutes in the game, and Bossy played 16 minutes.
Mike Bossy
I chose Game 4 of the 1983 series against the Boston Bruins, which the Islanders won 8-3, scoring 5 goals in the third period to blow out the Bruins. Bossy scored goals to make it 3-2, 4-2, and 6-2.
www.hockey-reference.com
Here are Bossy's shifts.
Overall, Bossy played 17 shifts, totalling about 16 minutes of time on ice. He didn't play a shift in the last 9 minutes of the game, when the Islanders already had 8 goals and a 5-6 goal lead. He was fourth in ice time among Islander forwards, behind Bryan Trottier (20:08), Bob Nystrom (17:36), and Bob Bourne (17:31).
And here are Bossy's three goals.
First goal by Bossy, a between-the-legs pass from Anders Kallur on the rush beat both Boston D-men, and Bossy beat Peeters with a quick shot.
Second goal by Bossy shows his absurdly quick release as he skated to the high slot and one-timed a saucer pass from the corner.
Third goal by Bossy. Potvin hit him with a pass for a breakaway on the power play. Bossy tucked it under Peeters while being hooked from behind and turned around. The announcers were just trashing Peeters for his poor lateral movement by this time,
Pavel Bure
I tracked Bure's ice time for a Toronto-Florida regular season game on March 17, 2001. Bure scored all three goals in a 5-3 loss to Toronto.
www.hockey-reference.com
Here are Bure's three goals. First, second, third. On all three goals, he received a pass with speed in the neutral zone, skated over the blue line, and beat Curtis Joseph with a shot taken at speed.
Here are Bure's shifts.
Overall, Bure played 25 shifts, totalling about 32 minutes of ice time, which was first on the Panthers. He played his most minutes in the third period, almost 13 of 20 minutes.
So we all know Bossy had some advantages. Better teammates and playmakers to set him up. He played in a higher scoring era against worse goalies. But he also had to play within a team system that was focused on winning. Many other great goal scorers would be out there in the last 10 minutes of the game trying to score more. And in the case of Bossy and Bure specifically, Bure played much more ice time.
Mike Bossy
I chose Game 4 of the 1983 series against the Boston Bruins, which the Islanders won 8-3, scoring 5 goals in the third period to blow out the Bruins. Bossy scored goals to make it 3-2, 4-2, and 6-2.
1982-83 Prince of Wales Conference Finals Game 4, Boston Bruins vs. New York Islanders Box Score: May 3, 1983 | Hockey-Reference.com
Get the latest box score updates on the Boston Bruins vs. New York Islanders game played on May 3, 1983 on Hockey-Reference.com
www.hockey-reference.com
Here are Bossy's shifts.
| Player | Period | Start of shift | End of shift | Shift length | State |
| Mike Bossy | 1 | 20:00 | 19:17 | 0:43 | EV |
| Mike Bossy | 1 | 15:39 | 14:14 | 1:25 | EV |
| Mike Bossy | 1 | 11:42 | 10:42 | 1:00 | EV |
| Mike Bossy | 1 | 9:56 | 9:10 | 0:46 | EV |
| Mike Bossy | 1 | 3:53 | 3:13 | 0:40 | EV |
| Mike Bossy | 1 | 2:23 | 1:11 | 1:12 | PP |
| Mike Bossy | 2 | 20:00 | 19:00 | 1:00 | PP |
| Mike Bossy | 2 | 17:01 | 15:55 | 1:06 | EV |
| Mike Bossy | 2 | 13:53 | 12:43 | 1:10 | EV |
| Mike Bossy | 2 | 11:32 | 9:52 | 1:40 | PP |
| Mike Bossy | 2 | 6:48 | 6:01 | 0:47 | EV |
| Mike Bossy | 2 | 4:10 | 3:10 | 1:00 | EV |
| Mike Bossy | 2 | 0:50 | 0:00 | 0:50 | EV |
| Mike Bossy | 3 | 20:00 | 19:07 | 0:53 | EV |
| Mike Bossy | 3 | 17:07 | 16:47 | 0:20 | EV |
| Mike Bossy | 3 | 13:36 | 12:32 | 1:04 | PP/EV |
| Mike Bossy | 3 | 9:36 | 9:02 | 0:34 | EV |
| Player | Period | Shifts | TOI |
| Mike Bossy | 1 | 6 | 5:46 |
| Mike Bossy | 2 | 7 | 7:33 |
| Mike Bossy | 3 | 4 | 2:51 |
| Mike Bossy | Total | 17 | 16:10 |
Overall, Bossy played 17 shifts, totalling about 16 minutes of time on ice. He didn't play a shift in the last 9 minutes of the game, when the Islanders already had 8 goals and a 5-6 goal lead. He was fourth in ice time among Islander forwards, behind Bryan Trottier (20:08), Bob Nystrom (17:36), and Bob Bourne (17:31).
And here are Bossy's three goals.
First goal by Bossy, a between-the-legs pass from Anders Kallur on the rush beat both Boston D-men, and Bossy beat Peeters with a quick shot.
Second goal by Bossy shows his absurdly quick release as he skated to the high slot and one-timed a saucer pass from the corner.
Third goal by Bossy. Potvin hit him with a pass for a breakaway on the power play. Bossy tucked it under Peeters while being hooked from behind and turned around. The announcers were just trashing Peeters for his poor lateral movement by this time,
Pavel Bure
I tracked Bure's ice time for a Toronto-Florida regular season game on March 17, 2001. Bure scored all three goals in a 5-3 loss to Toronto.
Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Florida Panthers Box Score: March 17, 2001 | Hockey-Reference.com
Get the latest box score updates on the Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Florida Panthers game played on March 17, 2001 on Hockey-Reference.com
www.hockey-reference.com
Here are Bure's three goals. First, second, third. On all three goals, he received a pass with speed in the neutral zone, skated over the blue line, and beat Curtis Joseph with a shot taken at speed.
Here are Bure's shifts.
Player | Period | Start of shift | End of shift | Shift length | State |
| Pavel Bure | 1 | 20:00 | 19:10 | 0:50 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 1 | 18:00 | 16:30 | 1:30 | PP |
| Pavel Bure | 1 | 14:45 | 14:38 | 0:07 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 1 | 12:20 | 9:55 | 2:25 | EV/PP |
| Pavel Bure | 1 | 7:00 | 5:20 | 1:40 | SH/EV |
| Pavel Bure | 1 | 4:25 | 3:45 | 0:40 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 1 | 2:40 | 1:58 | 0:42 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 1 | 0:48 | 0:00 | 0:48 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 2 | 20:00 | 19:00 | 1:00 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 2 | 17:50 | 16:40 | 1:10 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 2 | 15:30 | 14:03 | 1:27 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 2 | 13:17 | 11:33 | 1:44 | PP |
| Pavel Bure | 2 | 10:10 | 8:05 | 2:05 | EV/PP |
| Pavel Bure | 2 | 6:40 | 5:23 | 1:17 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 2 | 5:10 | 4:40 | 0:30 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 2 | 3:04 | 2:05 | 0:59 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 2 | 1:05 | 0:00 | 1:05 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 3 | 20:00 | 18:55 | 1:05 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 3 | 18:24 | 15:34 | 2:50 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 3 | 14:52 | 14:20 | 0:32 | SH |
| Pavel Bure | 3 | 13:05 | 11:23 | 1:42 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 3 | 10:10 | 8:45 | 1:25 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 3 | 8:00 | 6:55 | 1:05 | EV |
| Pavel Bure | 3 | 5:41 | 2:50 | 2:51 | PP/EV |
| Pavel Bure | 3 | 1:25 | 0:07 | 1:18 | EV |
Player | Period | Shifts | TOI |
| Pavel Bure | 1 | 8 | 8:42 |
| Pavel Bure | 2 | 9 | 11:17 |
| Pavel Bure | 3 | 8 | 12:48 |
| Pavel Bure | Total | 25 | 32:47 |
Overall, Bure played 25 shifts, totalling about 32 minutes of ice time, which was first on the Panthers. He played his most minutes in the third period, almost 13 of 20 minutes.
So we all know Bossy had some advantages. Better teammates and playmakers to set him up. He played in a higher scoring era against worse goalies. But he also had to play within a team system that was focused on winning. Many other great goal scorers would be out there in the last 10 minutes of the game trying to score more. And in the case of Bossy and Bure specifically, Bure played much more ice time.
overpass
Registered User
Since I tracked the ice time numbers for all the Islander forwards in 1983, Game 4 vs the Bruins, I'll post them here.
I've said before that Isles coach Al Arbour "rolled" four lines. That's not quite accurate for this game, he was closer to rolling 3 lines, and only got about 2 shifts per period for the fourth line. But he did use all 12 forwards. He wasn't afraid to skip a line when needed or double shift a player, and as the game went on he moved his depth forwards up and got ice time for everyone.
Arbour was hardly the only coach to take a balanced approach to ice time, or to include all 12 forwards. But not so many coaches with a dominant duo like Trottier and Bossy have exercised this much restraint in their minutes played.
Period 1: EV lines were
Gillies-Trottier-Bossy
Tonelli-Merrick-Nystrom
Bourne-B.Sutter-D.Sutter
Carroll-Goring-Kallur (rarely played at EV, Goring played a lot of SHTOI)
Period 2 and first half of period 3: EV lines were
Kallur-Trottier-Bossy
Tonelli-Goring-Nystrom
Bourne-B.Sutter-D.Sutter
Gillies-Merrick-Carroll (Gillies and Merrick got three shifts with Nystrom double shifting, Carroll didn't play)
Second half of period 3
Tonelli-Merrick-Nystrom
Bourne-B.Sutter-D.Sutter
Gillies-Carroll-Kallur
Trottier, Bossy, Goring didn't play
Bryan Trottier - started off as the #1 in all situations. Lots of SHTOI in the first period. Also went out for brief shifts to take faceoffs and get off the ice. Played his last EV shift with 11 minutes to go and a six goal lead, and didn't play at all after a PK shift with 7 minutes to go.
Mike Bossy - played on the top line and the top PP unit. Always with Trottier until his final shift with 9 minutes to go. The top PP unit with Bossy and Trottier played only 60% of the PP minutes, and on two occasions the second unit started the PP.
Bob Nystrom - one of Arbour's key EV matchup forwards, he played more than any other Islander forward at EV and double shifted occasionally.
John Tonelli - Another key matchup forward at EV, played with Nystrom. They were sometimes centred by Butch Goring and sometimes by Wayne Merrick.
Bob Bourne - played on the third line and the second PP unit with Brent and Duane Sutter, and the second PK unit with Billy Carroll.
Duane and Brent Sutter - played every shift together, at EV or on the PP, almost always with Bob Bourne.
Butch Goring - Played on the top PK unit with Trottier.
Wayne Merrick - Played EV only, splitting time with Goring on the key matchup line with Tonelli and Nystrom.
Anders Kallur - Rarely played in the first, got regular shifts in the second and third, including playing half the game on Trottier and Bossy's LW.
Clark Gillies - Played on Trottier and Bossy's wing in the first period. Dropped to the fourth line in the second period and rarely played, got regular shifts again in the last 10 minutes.
Billy Carroll - Didn't play an EV shift in the first two periods, he was only used on the second PK unit with Bourne. Played EV shifts after the game was in hand in the third period, and also played most of the PK time in the third, including as the lone forward as a 5-on-3 after the game was out of reach.
| Player | Pos | TOI | EVTOI | PPTOI | SHTOI |
| Bryan Trottier | C | 20:08 | 12:13 | 4:07 | 3:48 |
| Bob Nystrom | RW | 17:36 | 17:36 | 0:00 | 0:00 |
| Bob Bourne | LW | 17:31 | 11:17 | 2:54 | 3:20 |
| Mike Bossy | RW | 16:10 | 12:03 | 4:07 | 0:00 |
| John Tonelli | LW | 14:34 | 14:34 | 0:00 | 0:00 |
| Duane Sutter | RW | 13:34 | 10:40 | 2:54 | 0:00 |
| Brent Sutter | C | 13:24 | 10:30 | 2:54 | 0:00 |
| Butch Goring | C | 12:46 | 9:33 | 0:00 | 3:13 |
| Anders Kallur | LW/RW | 12:42 | 10:05 | 1:57 | 0:40 |
| Clark Gillies | LW | 11:52 | 9:42 | 2:10 | 0:00 |
| Billy Carroll | LW/C | 9:06 | 3:08 | 0:00 | 5:58 |
| Wayne Merrick | C | 8:56 | 8:56 | 0:00 | 0:00 |
| Player | Pos | P1 TOI | P2 TOI | P3 TOI | TOI |
| Bryan Trottier | C | 9:22 | 7:33 | 3:13 | 20:08 |
| Bob Nystrom | RW | 3:40 | 6:51 | 7:05 | 17:36 |
| Bob Bourne | LW | 6:54 | 5:48 | 4:49 | 17:31 |
| Mike Bossy | RW | 5:46 | 7:33 | 2:51 | 16:10 |
| John Tonelli | LW | 4:10 | 5:41 | 4:43 | 14:34 |
| Duane Sutter | RW | 3:14 | 5:36 | 4:44 | 13:34 |
| Brent Sutter | C | 3:14 | 5:36 | 4:34 | 13:24 |
| Butch Goring | C | 4:51 | 5:16 | 2:39 | 12:46 |
| Anders Kallur | LW/RW | 1:08 | 6:13 | 5:21 | 12:42 |
| Clark Gillies | LW | 5:04 | 2:18 | 4:30 | 11:52 |
| Billy Carroll | LW/C | 3:15 | 0:00 | 5:51 | 9:06 |
| Wayne Merrick | C | 3:22 | 1:35 | 3:59 | 8:56 |
I've said before that Isles coach Al Arbour "rolled" four lines. That's not quite accurate for this game, he was closer to rolling 3 lines, and only got about 2 shifts per period for the fourth line. But he did use all 12 forwards. He wasn't afraid to skip a line when needed or double shift a player, and as the game went on he moved his depth forwards up and got ice time for everyone.
Arbour was hardly the only coach to take a balanced approach to ice time, or to include all 12 forwards. But not so many coaches with a dominant duo like Trottier and Bossy have exercised this much restraint in their minutes played.
Period 1: EV lines were
Gillies-Trottier-Bossy
Tonelli-Merrick-Nystrom
Bourne-B.Sutter-D.Sutter
Carroll-Goring-Kallur (rarely played at EV, Goring played a lot of SHTOI)
Period 2 and first half of period 3: EV lines were
Kallur-Trottier-Bossy
Tonelli-Goring-Nystrom
Bourne-B.Sutter-D.Sutter
Gillies-Merrick-Carroll (Gillies and Merrick got three shifts with Nystrom double shifting, Carroll didn't play)
Second half of period 3
Tonelli-Merrick-Nystrom
Bourne-B.Sutter-D.Sutter
Gillies-Carroll-Kallur
Trottier, Bossy, Goring didn't play
Bryan Trottier - started off as the #1 in all situations. Lots of SHTOI in the first period. Also went out for brief shifts to take faceoffs and get off the ice. Played his last EV shift with 11 minutes to go and a six goal lead, and didn't play at all after a PK shift with 7 minutes to go.
Mike Bossy - played on the top line and the top PP unit. Always with Trottier until his final shift with 9 minutes to go. The top PP unit with Bossy and Trottier played only 60% of the PP minutes, and on two occasions the second unit started the PP.
Bob Nystrom - one of Arbour's key EV matchup forwards, he played more than any other Islander forward at EV and double shifted occasionally.
John Tonelli - Another key matchup forward at EV, played with Nystrom. They were sometimes centred by Butch Goring and sometimes by Wayne Merrick.
Bob Bourne - played on the third line and the second PP unit with Brent and Duane Sutter, and the second PK unit with Billy Carroll.
Duane and Brent Sutter - played every shift together, at EV or on the PP, almost always with Bob Bourne.
Butch Goring - Played on the top PK unit with Trottier.
Wayne Merrick - Played EV only, splitting time with Goring on the key matchup line with Tonelli and Nystrom.
Anders Kallur - Rarely played in the first, got regular shifts in the second and third, including playing half the game on Trottier and Bossy's LW.
Clark Gillies - Played on Trottier and Bossy's wing in the first period. Dropped to the fourth line in the second period and rarely played, got regular shifts again in the last 10 minutes.
Billy Carroll - Didn't play an EV shift in the first two periods, he was only used on the second PK unit with Bourne. Played EV shifts after the game was in hand in the third period, and also played most of the PK time in the third, including as the lone forward as a 5-on-3 after the game was out of reach.
Last edited:
BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
- 15,362
- 4,638
Might be worthwhile to compare a couple of close games with the same result for their teams.
No doubt Florida Bure played more than Bossy in general but in that 8-3 game Trottier and Bossy obviously got idled down for a game that was well in hand.
Bure on the losing end probably played a bit more then normal trying to catch up.
No doubt Florida Bure played more than Bossy in general but in that 8-3 game Trottier and Bossy obviously got idled down for a game that was well in hand.
Bure on the losing end probably played a bit more then normal trying to catch up.
Cursed Lemon
Registered Bruiser
Saying Bure was a better goalscorer is not the same thing as saying he was a better player and I think that's getting lost on some people here.
overpass
Registered User
Yes, the two games were certainly not apples and oranges. Although Bure still played more than 50% higher ice time than Bossy in the first two periods.
I've tracked ice time for another Islander game. This time for Game 4 of the 1981 Stanley Cup Finals against Minnesota. The game was within a goal throughout and the Islanders trailed by a goal for most of the third period.
Bossy played only 17:03 in this close game.
1981 NHL Stanley Cup Final: MNS vs. NYI | Hockey-Reference.com
1981 NHL Stanley Cup Final: MNS vs. NYI
www.hockey-reference.com
This game was before rosters were expanded to 18, so there were only 11 forwards. Billy Carrol and Duane Sutter were the 10th and 11th forwards, and played almost no EV time in the first two periods. What's interesting is that Al Arbour lengthened instead of shortened his bench in a close third period game, and gave Sutter and Carroll two shifts with Nystrom. Trying to win with fresh legs instead of by loading up on ice time for the stars.
Tonelli-Merrick-Nystrom had no special teams roles so they took the first shift of every period and the shift after power plays for either team. On at least two occasions they played a full EV shift and then went out for another shift after a 30 second TV timeout.
Trottier played with Bossy for 15 of Bossy's 16 shifts, and then played another 10 shifts for a total of 25. All were either shorthanded shifts (sometimes two in one penalty if there was a faceoff) or going out for a defensive zone faceoff and then getting off at the next opportunity. Oddly enough, Trottier didn't take those EV faceoffs, he played as a winger, replacing Tonelli, Bourne, or Kallur, but never Nystrom. Merrick or Goring still took the faceoff. And Trottier got off at the first opportunity.
Trottier clearly had a bigger defensive role than Bossy. But I think Bossy was just as clearly the better offensive player, and an underrated all time great. He was an exceptional goal scorer, with a lightning quick release, and very good at finding space in the slot or going to the front of the net.
Beyond his shooting, Bossy was also very effective all over the offensive zone at quickly moving the puck to teammates and making the right decision, and rarely turned the puck over. And he engaged in as many board battles as his linemates, he didn't drift around waiting for them to do the work. He wasn't a playmaking winger who held the puck a lot to make the final pass, but his quick puck movement and smart decisions combined with his all time great finishing helped make his team extremely dangerous offensively whenever he was on the ice.
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