Player Discussion Mika Zibanejad: Part II

[Amazing Kreiderman]

clearly he’s been advised not to. There gotta be some common sense here guys.

"use my common sense and agree with me, people!"

 

[Edge]

You are talking in circles when you know very obviously that if the team says upper and lower body injury the players know very clearly to echo that statement. He gave as much as he could without breaking that very clear league wide mandate. Let’s not pretend like hockey players don’t tow the line.

so while you twist this up as you do at times when people don’t take your word as gospel, (and I do appreciate and respect what you share don’t let that be confused here) it would be a lot easier if you used common sense as Mika suggested we all do today.

I fully believe they may have thought it was a neck issue when they gave their original day to day prognosis but it became something more. Setbacks don’t happen with bruises. That carp quote was from a month ago. Not normal. And if it isn’t a normal type of neck injury he wouldn’t have made the uncomfortable comment he made today

It's not about taking my word as gospel, it's about the pieces still not fitting together for me. I don't have a problem if they've found he has a concussion (I mean I do, but I don't).

So let's say Zibanejad has a concussion.

Either, the Rangers did not conduct a proper concussion protocol, and sent him back on the ice, putting him at risk, or he had symptoms emerge significantly later in the process.

If they emerged later, we're talking days, if not weeks later, then that also doesn't speak well of their initial diagnosis. Then there's the matter of non-disclosure vs. lying.

If we continue down that path, you now have team officials not just evading the question, but literally going on the record with false information, repeatedly. That's going to be a problem.

So here's the thing, I'll even meet you half-way and say, sure, Zibanejad has a concussion.

But then the immediate follow-up to that is that there's some major concerns with the Rangers medical procedures and their disclosure of information to the public, which seems ripe for a lawsuit.

 

[Edge]

Given that head and neck injuries can produce identical symptoms, I wouldn't even really think it a conspiracy. Plausible scenario, even if it's highly-speculative.

Not going to lie, part of me even suspects that Zibanejad and the Rangers aren't in agreement on what happened.

 

[nyr2k2]

I have no concern with the Rangers' disclosure of players' medical information. They seem to typically play it pretty close to the vest--both management and the players themselves. Injury updates are always at a premium. That's generally how it works in sports and I don't really see anything wrong with it.

 

[True Blue]

Yep. There's an established report of what the injury is. If it's that, why the imprecise answer from Z?

You would have to ask him. Maybe he was advised not to divulge it? And as has been pointed out, Quinn and co are on record saying what it is. I would think the penalties would be rather harsh if they were flat out on record as lying.

 

[Kovalev27]

"use my common sense and agree with me, people!"

nice try but these attempted shots haven’t worked so well for you lately. They’re also pretty lazy instead of having an actual conversation.

But again Mika said you guys obviously can figure it out. He’s telling the media to use common sense. If he weren’t alluding to something more he wouldn’t have beat around the bush.

read between the lines.

 

[nyr2k2]

Not going to lie, part of me even suspects that Zibanejad and the Rangers aren't in agreement on what happened.

It's a tough area, the head/neck. I have chronic pain due to a rare arthritis and the pain and stiffness I get gives me temporary neurological symptoms, very similar to a concussion I had as a teenager. So I can imagine it being tricky to diagnose.

 

[Edge]

I have no concern with the Rangers' disclosure of players' medical information. They seem to typically play it pretty close to the vest--both management and the players themselves. Injury updates are always at a premium. That's generally how it works in sports and I don't really see anything wrong with it.

Personally, I don't have a problem with them not disclosing. That was my original stance however many pages back.

I would admit, that the lying about information would bother me more.

There's a line between disclosure and falsifying the information you do provide. Even if it's not a legal boundary, which I suspect it could be if there was indeed a lie, there is an ethical boundary there.

So while I do not believe the Rangers owe information under a right to know, it would be unfortunate if they were found to have lied, on the record, about information.

Now having said that, I have a harder time imagining the Rangers lying about something like this --- especially repeatedly. They wouldn't necessarily disclose it, they might even leave it vague, but I have hard time seeing them flat out saying, "No, it's not a concussion."

Even with protocols and other things, that would be a strange approach to take. It would be even stranger to double and triple down on it afterwards. Which they have, in a very public setting.

I could speculate that he's experiencing concussion-like symptoms. I could speculate that the Rangers are coming back and saying, "There is nothing showing up, other than how you're feeling, that shows a concussion." But it would be just that, speculation.

The fact that chest and neck has been repeated publicly would seem odd. That was out there before I was hearing more-specific "sternum and whiplash" problems --- which backed up the more general information being reported. So that leads me to believe a combination of several things:

1. His symptoms, with his injuries, are worse than initially believed.

and

2. His symptoms either feel like a concussion, or a concussion.

From there, I could see the following:

3. There is disagreement on the diagnosis

or

4. The Rangers misdiagnosed and are shitting themselves

or

5. The Rangers lied about the diagnosis, which would unfortunate.

or

6. Some combination of the above options.

 

[Kords]

It's not about taking my word as gospel, it's about the pieces still not fitting together for me. I don't have a problem if they've found he has a concussion (I mean I do, but I don't).

So let's say Zibanejad has a concussion.

Either, the Rangers did not conduct a proper concussion protocol, and sent him back on the ice, putting him at risk, or he had symptoms emerge significantly later in the process.

If they emerged later, we're talking days, if not weeks later, then that also doesn't speak well of their initial diagnosis. Then there's the matter of non-disclosure vs. lying.

If we continue down that path, you now have team officials not just evading the question, but literally going on the record with false information, repeatedly. That's going to be a problem.

So here's the thing, I'll even meet you half-way and say, sure, Zibanejad has a concussion.

But then the immediate follow-up to that is that there's some major concerns with the Rangers medical procedures and their disclosure of information to the public, which seems ripe for a lawsuit.

This is literally the only reason why it actually matters to me.

Seems like I was the only one who caught it so I hate to keep bringing it up, but Weekes called it a concussion two days after it occurred which was before they came out and said it wasn't. Something just doesn't jive.

 

[OthmannOut]

It's not a concussion guys, it's a brain sprain.

 

[Edge]

This is literally the only reason why it actually matters to me.

Seems like I was the only one who caught it so I hate to keep bringing it up, but Weekes called it a concussion two days after it occurred which was before they came out and said it wasn't. Something just doesn't jive.

And that's the thing, they've been asked.

"Is it a concussion?"

They've responded, multiple times, "No, it isn't a concussion."

Now, if they had no desire to disclose medical information, I get that.

But they also wouldn't be likely to flat out say it isn't something either.

That's the part that I have a harder time taking a leap of faith on.

If they kept it vague and repeatedly said it was upper body, or an undisclosed head injury, and said they weren't going to discuss details, I think it fits a bit more.

But they're on the record responding with a no, more than once. If they weren't going to disclose a concussion, I find it hard to believe they'd be that definitive in their response.

And if someone slipped and said "No" when they shouldn't have, I have a hard time believing they'd be okay with that being repeated again later.

 

[Harbour Dog]

I feel like what's getting lost in this concussion vs. neck debate is that management has yet to rule out genital warts.

If that's what he's dealing with, rebuilding his confidence could be quite the task.

 

[nyr2k2]

Personally, I don't have a problem with them not disclosing. That was my original stance however many pages back.

I would admit, that the lying about information would bother me more.

There's a line between disclosure and falsifying the information you do provide. Even if it's not a legal boundary, which I suspect it could be if there was indeed a lie, there is an ethical boundary there.

So while I do not believe the Rangers owe information under a right to know, it would be unfortunate if they were found to have lied, on the record, about information.

Now having said that, I have a harder time imagining the Rangers lying about something like this --- especially repeatedly. They wouldn't necessarily disclose it, they might even leave it vague, but I have hard time seeing them flat out saying, "No, it's not a concussion."

Even with protocols and other things, that would be a strange approach to take. It would be even stranger to double and triple down on it afterwards. Which they have, in a very public setting.

I could speculate that he's experiencing concussion-like symptoms. I could speculate that the Rangers are coming back and saying, "There is nothing showing up, other than how you're feeling, that shows a concussion." But it would be just that, speculation.

The fact that chest and neck has been repeated publicly would seem odd. That was out there before I was hearing more-specific "sternum and whiplash" problems --- which backed up the more general information being reported. So that leads me to believe a combination of several things:

1. His symptoms, with his injuries, are worse than initially believed.

and

2. His symptoms either feel like a concussion, or a concussion.

From there, I could see the following:

3. There is disagreement on the diagnosis

or

4. The Rangers misdiagnosed and are ****ting themselves

or

5. The Rangers lied about the diagnosis, which would unfortunate.

or

6. Some combination of the above options.

My guess, based on what the team said weeks ago, the extended timeline with little updates, and then Zibanejad's "duh" statement is that he initially had symptoms that were deemed due to a neck injury of some kind, and he then developed some type of concussion-related symptoms.

I don't think the Rangers would intentionally incorrectly report an injury, as that would violate league policy. And there'd be no reason to do it, honestly. But it explains, to me, the initial statements (which were still somewhat vague--"neck thing"), the prolonged absence, and then Zibanejad giving the "figure it out" rather than saying "Like Coach said, it's a neck thing."

All speculation on my part, though.

 

[Edge]

I feel like what's getting lost in this concussion vs. neck debate is that management has yet to rule out genital warts.

If that's what he's dealing with, rebuilding his confidence could be quite the task.

I think concussion or no concussion, if he's experiencing anything remotely close to those symptoms, again, there has to be a concern.

Now, I'm certainly not a medical doctor, but can someone who has had a concussion experience similar symptoms when getting hurt in the future? Even if the follow-up injury isn't itself a concussion?

A quick search finds there are injuries that produce concussion like symptoms. But does any one know if previous concussions can be a factor, or would any symptoms be completely unrelated to previous concussions?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

nice try but these attempted shots haven’t worked so well for you lately. They’re also pretty lazy instead of having an actual conversation.

But again Mika said you guys obviously can figure it out. He’s telling the media to use common sense. If he weren’t alluding to something more he wouldn’t have beat around the bush.

read between the lines.

Reading between the lines = just guessing. There is no word from any source hinting at a concussion. You can keep repeating that it's a concussion but there is just nothing confirming that

 

[Kovalev27]

Reading between the lines = just guessing. There is no word from any source hinting at a concussion. You can keep repeating that it's a concussion but there is just nothing confirming that

theres plenty.

1 there’s his very concerning concussion history.

2 There’s his chin visibly catching a shoulder pad from Bergeron

3 There’s an injury with no timetable for return

4 There’s a setback where he’s practicing then shut down for a week before skating again and taking another 2 weeks.

5 hen there’s his comments today that in context would make zero sense if his injury was a weird and mysterious neck injury as it’s been reported a month ago being.

to pretend like that makes no sense and that there is nothing to it is strange to say the least. Sounds more to me like just hating to have to admit might be wrong and may have jumped on posters earlier for thinking there was something not right here.

I really respect posters that have no problem saying “yah you maybe were on to something” or “ my bad I shouldn’t have taken your head off few weeks/months ago” it’s rarer and rarer here though these days.

Regardless it should not have taken him this long to come back from some day to day neck stinger as we were originally led to believe.

 

[Trxjw]

I think concussion or no concussion, if he's experiencing anything remotely close to those symptoms, again, there has to be a concern.

Now, I'm certainly not a medical doctor, but can someone who has had a concussion experience similar symptoms when getting hurt in the future? Even if the follow-up injury isn't itself a concussion?

You don't even need to get hurt. In some cases people with PCS have had concussion-like symptoms simply from over-exerting themselves. Which is why you hear the term "setback" a lot when it comes to players recovering. It can also take weeks for the symptoms to manifest themselves, which makes it even harder to predict and diagnose. It's entirely plausible that Zib did in fact hurt his neck and didn't see any concussion-related symptoms until he got back on the ice recently.

I really don't want to speculate, but Zib isn't doing anyone any favors with his commentary.

 

[Levitate]

It's not about taking my word as gospel, it's about the pieces still not fitting together for me. I don't have a problem if they've found he has a concussion (I mean I do, but I don't).

So let's say Zibanejad has a concussion.

Either, the Rangers did not conduct a proper concussion protocol, and sent him back on the ice, putting him at risk, or he had symptoms emerge significantly later in the process.

If they emerged later, we're talking days, if not weeks later, then that also doesn't speak well of their initial diagnosis. Then there's the matter of non-disclosure vs. lying.

If we continue down that path, you now have team officials not just evading the question, but literally going on the record with false information, repeatedly. That's going to be a problem.

So here's the thing, I'll even meet you half-way and say, sure, Zibanejad has a concussion.

But then the immediate follow-up to that is that there's some major concerns with the Rangers medical procedures and their disclosure of information to the public, which seems ripe for a lawsuit.

I think it's not always easy to figure out concussions. they can do everything perfect during the game, decide he doesn't have a concussion, and then days later he starts having issues. Brain injuries are very tricky things and aren't always the same. It's entirely possible to do everything right and still end up being wrong about whether or not it really was a concussion

 

[Edge]

theres plenty.

1 there’s his very concerning concussion history.

2 There’s his chin visibly catching a shoulder pad from Bergeron

3 There’s an injury with no timetable for return

4 There’s a setback where he’s practicing then shut down for a week before skating again and taking another 2 weeks.

5 hen there’s his comments today that in context would make zero sense if his injury was a weird and mysterious neck injury as it’s been reported a month ago being.

to pretend like that makes no sense and that there is nothing to it is strange to say the least. Sounds more to me like just hating to have to admit might be wrong and may have jumped on posters earlier for thinking there was something not right here.

I really respect posters that have no problem saying “yah you maybe were on to something” or “ my bad I shouldn’t have taken your head off few weeks/months ago” it’s rarer and rarer here though these days.

Regardless it should not have taken him this long to come back from some day to day neck stinger as we were originally led to believe.

I’ll go on record right now, again, and say I don’t “know” if Zibanejad has a concussion.

I will further say, he very well could have a concussion.

However, when the team flat out says he doesn’t have a concussion, and the team, even vaguely says neck and chest, and then I talk to several/half-a-dozen who then say that they’re hearing sternum/whiplash problems (which jives with neck/chest), one doesn’t just simply throw everything out the window because it’s possible to read things as a concussion.

It’s the whole correlation not equaling causation approach. Even guessing right, based on a hunch, more than actual evidence, is still guessing. And when people keep repeating a guess, over and over, and it still amounts to only a guess, it’s going to face more scrutiny.

Broadly speaking as to some of what we see on here, and not necessarily specific to this particularly topic or the individuals in it, if guesses come from someone known for hot takes and opinions that tend to be incorrect, or someone like that actively champions for a cause, the pushback tends to be stronger. Unfortunately, there are people who live and die on those reactions, so it does...change the climate on here a bit, and that’s truly unfortunate.

Unfortunately, that’s climate some people create for themselves — and it’s not always fair, or even right. If someone reads 9 hot takes and off the wall comments, they tend to overlook the one time that person actually was right. And feelings tend to get hurt that way.

 

[SA16]

Who cares what the injury is? He was injured and now he's about to be back. Does it really matter? There's no hiding it around the league teams trade medical reports before any trades are made and such anyway and he'd have to pass physicals. And why would the team lie about him having a concussion when they announced concussions last year (Nieves) and Zibanejad in the past? And the new management (JD) announced multiple players were out due to concussions while in Columbus so it's not a policy there either.

 

[Edge]

I think it's not always easy to figure out concussions. they can do everything perfect during the game, decide he doesn't have a concussion, and then days later he starts having issues. Brain injuries are very tricky things and aren't always the same. It's entirely possible to do everything right and still end up being wrong about whether or not it really was a concussion

And that very well could be the case.

The strange part would be the amount of time to find that out, and if they lied about it after new evidence came out.

The former seems significantly more plausible than the latter.

 

[Thirty One]

You would have to ask him. Maybe he was advised not to divulge it? And as has been pointed out, Quinn and co are on record saying what it is. I would think the penalties would be rather harsh if they were flat out on record as lying.

He was asked not to divulge what the organization already said? That seems even remotely plausible to you?

Have the Rangers said anything since the early days of his absence? It's possible that what they thought was a neck injury turned out to be a concussion. I don't remember the Devils facing penalties for initially reporting Scott Stevens' career ending concussion as the flu.

 

[Siddi]

I was on the fence but yeah, it sure sounds like a concussion.

 

[Edge]

He was asked not to divulge what the organization already said? That seems even remotely plausible to you?

Have the Rangers said anything since the early days of his absence? It's possible that what they thought was a neck injury turned out to be a concussion. I don't remember the Devils facing penalties for initially reporting Scott Stevens' career ending concussion as the flu.

Periodically, which is part of the reason I would be confused about them finding a concussion later.

Zibanejad was injured on Oct. 27.

The comment I posted from Quinn was from Nov. 1, five days later, wasn’t the first or last time he said it wasn’t a concussion. So that’s a decent amount of time for them to find at least something linking it to a concussion and/or deny it.

I haven’t gone through and chronicled all the other references before or since, and some of them exist on various threads here, and posted content elsewhere, but that “No” statement was repeated. So it didn’t live in isolation.

I don’t remember which thread had it, but I believe Quinn said “No” as recently as two days ago. Someone referenced it on here, but it’s becoming really hard to find with all the traffic. So if it was a concussion they surely would’ve known by then. And even if they had no intention of disclosing it to the public, they wouldn’t have to lie either. They could simply say it’s an undisclosed upper body injury.

So the message, however vague and frustratingly infrequent, has been repeated.

What’s fairly new to the conversation, is the possibility that the Rangers would have some kind of reason or policy not to disclose. That would seem to contradict what they and their leaders have done in the past.

Additionally, it would still leave the problem that they have said “No” repeatedly. So, assuming that it was a concussion, it would be strange for them to keep saying it wasn’t.

 

[duhmetreE]

I still dont think it was a concussion.

He'd be doing lite bike-work/cardio, not skating if that were the case.. no?