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Confirmed with Link: Meme/Like Thread 6 - A new season on the horizon

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Blueline Bomber said:
“Situational awareness” means understanding the environment, its elements, and how it may change based on actions that may or may not be performed.

For instance, firing a gun into a subway car full of passengers has a high likelihood of collateral damage. I’m pretty sure most people could tell you that, police trained or not.

Now I understand that they fired their gun to protect themselves, because the suspect lunged at them with a knife, after the suspect told the officers “If you keep following me, I’m going to stab you.” And they began following him because he jumped the turnstile and didn’t pay the $2.90 fee.

So a failure to pay the $2.90 fee left 3 people injured, 1 dead. And no doubt the taxpayers will be paying for any medical (or legal) expenses that come as a result of this shooting, which will certainly cost more than $2.90.

I imagine most people would have taken a route that didn’t end up with that conclusion, including the aforementioned Twitch streamers.
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What were they supposed to do? Let people do crimes in broad daylight and not intervene? Or intervene and not use weapons against a guy who was trying to murder them?

It’s arguable that cops ought to be issued less-lethal weapons for these kinds of duties, but that’s not within the control of these individuals who were doing their jobs as assigned.
 
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Blueline Bomber said:
“Situational awareness” means understanding the environment, its elements, and how it may change based on actions that may or may not be performed.

For instance, firing a gun into a subway car full of passengers has a high likelihood of collateral damage. I’m pretty sure most people could tell you that, police trained or not.

Now I understand that they fired their gun to protect themselves, because the suspect lunged at them with a knife, after the suspect told the officers “If you keep following me, I’m going to stab you.” And they began following him because he jumped the turnstile and didn’t pay the $2.90 fee.

So a failure to pay the $2.90 fee left 3 people injured, 1 dead. And no doubt the taxpayers will be paying for any medical (or legal) expenses that come as a result of this shooting, which will certainly cost more than $2.90.

I imagine most people would have taken a route that didn’t end up with that conclusion, including the aforementioned Twitch streamers.
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It’s easy to judge from the cheap seats. I’m as liberal as they come but have worked in 911 for 17 years now and it left me no choice but to change how I view the police and how they do what they do. There’s plenty of legit complaints about how it’s gone over the years but more than enough lawsuits have happened for these guys to now be trained to be assholes far less than they would’ve even ten years ago.

You can never judge an incident from what you read in an article or the snippet of targeted footage the media supplies you to make it as inflammatory as possible. Being attacked by even an unarmed person makes the scene go coco bananas more than civilians can understand. I’ve been attacked more times than I can count. Last time it happened I had a tablet in my hand that was in its sleeve on the tablets backside and while I’m dancing around him I’m trying to decide if I’m going to karate chop him downward using the edge or slap him across the face with it using the screen…..with the general public all around us pulling out their cell phones. Someone else finally tackled him and then all I had to do right in front of the public is sedate him by sticking him in the butt with medication while he was kicking and screaming at us about his rights and how he was going to find his knife and kill us all. All we were there to do was check on him because he was sleeping in an elevator. I’m a paramedic/firefighter not an armed cop. If he had just walked/run away none of us would’ve stopped him.

Deciding what to do as a cop in 1.5 seconds when someone is breaking the law (for whatever reason) but then much more importantly coming at you with a knife is a lot easier to judge from here than there is all I’m saying. They show us a scene safety video made by a former firefighter stabbed on scene and they show us the raw footage. He had enough time to take a half step back and raise his arms about an inch before the guy stabbed him three times. Got his lung and just missed his heart, took over a year to recover and they medically retired him (involuntarily). It’s not easy to judge all this.
 
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tarheelhockey said:
What were they supposed to do? Let people do crimes in broad daylight and not intervene? Or intervene and not use weapons against a guy who was trying to murder them?

It’s arguable that cops ought to be issued less-lethal weapons for these kinds of duties, but that’s not within the control of these individuals who were doing their jobs as assigned.
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Well, they did apparently use a taser, but it was ineffective. Also, apparently there may or may not have been a knife involved, since the knife recovered at the scene was not the knife allegedly used and the knife that was allegedly used has disappeared. I get a feeling that the body cams might be telling a different story than the one presented thus far and they're preemptively trying to get ahead of this.

As for what they're supposed to do? Initially, confronting the farehopper, which they did. Once it became obvious that the suspect is becoming belligerent, try to de-escalate the situation (something they're supposed to be trained to do). If that fails, reevaluate the situation. Is it worth getting into a weapons-drawn confrontation with this guy over a $2.90 fare? Is there a way to handle it that doesn't put others at risk?

I find it hard to believe the situation that ends with 3 people shot and 1 dead was the only way this could have been resolved.
 
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Blueline Bomber said:
Well, they did apparently use a taser, but it was ineffective. Also, apparently there may or may not have been a knife involved, since the knife recovered at the scene was not the knife allegedly used and the knife that was allegedly used has disappeared. I get a feeling that the body cams might be telling a different story than the one presented thus far and they're preemptively trying to get ahead of this.

As for what they're supposed to do? Initially, confronting the farehopper, which they did. Once it became obvious that the suspect is becoming belligerent, try to de-escalate the situation (something they're supposed to be trained to do). If that fails, reevaluate the situation. Is it worth getting into a weapons-drawn confrontation with this guy over a $2.90 fare? Is there a way to handle it that doesn't put others at risk?

I find it hard to believe the situation that ends with 3 people shot and 1 dead was the only way this could have been resolved.
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Most important thing here is that you’re right, the wiser thing is to wait for body cams to be released and judge based on video rather than description.

From what we are being told (grain of salt in hand), the suspect pulled the knife and explicitly told the cops they would have to shoot him because he would not come peacefully. About that time, he boarded a subway car. The police are by all reasonable standards required to arrest someone who has just committed a crime and pulled a weapon and is now boarding a subway car. De-escalation is not an option when the suspect is deliberately escalating and pushing for a violent conclusion.

Around that time, they used the taser which proved ineffective (grain of salt still in hand). Sometime soon after that, the suspect charged with the knife (more salt).

Given that the suspect is now on the offensive with deadly intent, their only options remaining are: run away, attempt to fight a knife wielding lunatic with their hands, or end his life with a bullet.

It sucks a lot that bystanders were hit, but I can’t see how either of the first two options were actually options. They apparently made a bunch of verbal commands, tried the non-lethal approach, and the suspect was determined to bring the situation to a head. Unsurprisingly he has a history of severe mental illness, so there may not have ever been any actual potential to de-escalate, other than just letting him commit crime at will.
 
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Yeah, if he brandished a knife, threatened the cops, then entered the subway car, the officers were in a no-win situation. And like you said, if the suspect was intent on escalation, the end result was a given.

Two things bothered me about the situation. One, how does the suspect's knife disappear, but an unrelated knife come into the officer's possession and treated as evidence? It's not completely out of the realm of possibility that an unrelated knife was also on that subway car, but it's certainly a hell of a coincidence.

The other has less to do with the situation itself and more about the response. I believe the mayor of NY made a statement about it basically saying "The suspect attacked, the officers responded with force, one officer was injured, but will luckily make a full recovery." Completely ignoring the other two innocent bystanders in the process, including the guy that's in critical condition after being shot in the head. That's tone deaf at least, and maliciously modifying the story at worst.
 
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Blueline Bomber said:
Yeah, if he brandished a knife, threatened the cops, then entered the subway car, the officers were in a no-win situation. And like you said, if the suspect was intent on escalation, the end result was a given.

Two things bothered me about the situation. One, how does the suspect's knife disappear, but an unrelated knife come into the officer's possession and treated as evidence? It's not completely out of the realm of possibility that an unrelated knife was also on that subway car, but it's certainly a hell of a coincidence.

The other has less to do with the situation itself and more about the response. I believe the mayor of NY made a statement about it basically saying "The suspect attacked, the officers responded with force, one officer was injured, but will luckily make a full recovery." Completely ignoring the other two innocent bystanders in the process, including the guy that's in critical condition after being shot in the head. That's tone deaf at least, and maliciously modifying the story at worst.
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In both of those cases, it sounds like typical NYPD nonsense. This is where I wait for the body cams, because I wouldn’t put it past them to misrepresent the situation.
 
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