McDavid and Matthews have to wait to overtake Crosby

[Perfect_Drug]

Legit question. Why is Crosby considered better defensively than McDavid?

Not trolling. Legit curious.

McDavid had higher corsi for and better corsi against. Both had similar zone deployment. Crosby gave away the puck twice as much. McDavid had double the takeaways.

Crosby has below average shot suppression. He's not some mega defensive stalwart. And for someone who has a way better faceoff percentage its surprising to see him with worse posession numbers.


There's a narrative saying Crosby is more of a Complete player, and better defensively. Yet no stats back this up.

McDavid also beat Crosby in nearly every statistical category during their head to head matchup.

 

[daver]

Where are you getting this from?

From what I see, Crosby had better CF%, FF%, and SF% than McDavid this season. He also had better relative stats in the above categories as well.

CF%:
Crosby - 53.8
McDavid - 52.9

FF%:
Crosby - 54.1
McDavid - 54.0

SF%:
Crosby - 54.7
McDavid - 53.7

Link to the above information.



The above is kind of a big deal defensively, especially when you're boxing players out and winning board battles in the defensive zone when you're trying to prevent the other team from scoring.

That doesn't even touch on the fact a lot of the time McDavid's the first forward blowing the defensive zone, with Draisaitl almost taking the center's defensive responsibilities for that line. In contrast, Crosby's the guy who plays deep in the defensive zone for his line.

Legit question. Why is Crosby considered better defensively than McDavid?

Not trolling. Legit curious.

McDavid had higher corsi for and better corsi against. Both had similar zone deployment. Crosby gave away the puck twice as much. McDavid had double the takeaways.

Crosby has below average shot suppression. He's not some mega defensive stalwart. And for someone who has a way better faceoff percentage its surprising to see him with worse posession numbers.


There's a narrative saying Crosby is more of a Complete player, and better defensively. Yet no stats back this up.

McDavid also beat Crosby in nearly every statistical category during their head to head matchup.

Did u not see the response to your original post? Of course any stats that are influenced by linemates/teammates have to be taken with a grain of salt. Crosby was 7th in Selke voting last year.

Crosby is simply the much more proven player even if we focused exclusively on offensive production. He can carry a line offensively despite not having an elite linemate and having to take on a 2-way role rather than being exclusively offense. He has been better in the playoffs this year and is arguably the best playoff performer of his era.

I don't doubt that McDavid is/will be a solid to very good 2-way player which is all you would ask a player with his offensive skills to be. IMO, McDavid needs to clearly beat Crosby in offensive production, including the playoffs, before we can declare he is better.

 

[Lemieuxs]

I am a huge Penguins fan. An even bigger Mario and Sid fan. Having said that, McDavid is absolutely the real deal. He has as good a shot as anyone at becoming just as good as Sid.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Actually McDavid did pretty good while not having Drai on his line. Someone already did the math on these boards, it was extrapolated that McDavid would have had 3 less points if he wasn't playing with Drai, going by his "with him and without him" totals, something like that. I'm not sure how Drai fares without McDavid, afaik no one looked into it. While this may or may not have ended up the case if they were on two separate lines for the entire season, it's evidence that supports that McDavid doesn't need Drai to rack up these kinds of point totals.

Yeah, sure, so without him he'd have 3 less points. You know how ridiculous that sounds right?

So what are you saying, without Draisaitl he's a 97pt player and Leon is a 74pt player? So they magically played on the same line for majority of the season and really, only 3pts are accounted for as the difference?

I mean, there's ridiculous and then there's just flat out hilarity.

 

[Auston Marlander]

Crosby was not as good as McDavid at the same age. I say that with the upmost confidence. Albiet it was close.

Give McDavid a couple years and we will see. But Crosby is imo currently a better overall player than McDavid.

McDavid is generational Mathews is not. Great player that Mathews is he has never been considered generational by non bias hockey pundits. Having said that The future is murky for mortals and who knows mathews may end up better than both McDavid and Crosby.

To be fair Trotz did call Matthews generational. I mean it's a dumb title that means nothing since it is completely subjective.

As for the topic, they will pass him during his decline. Not a knock on anyone, it's just a timing thing.

 

[Auston Marlander]

McDavid also beat Crosby in nearly every statistical category during their head to head matchup.

What does a 1 game head to head have to do with anything at all? It's always a joke of a stance people choose to take and I just don't get it.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

What does a 1 game head to head have to do with anything at all? It's always a joke of a stance people choose to take and I just don't get it.

Have you read some of the replies by Oilers fans? It's almost delusional. No one is saying McDavid isn't great, but the fact that they would sooner undersell a kid like Leon just to pump McDavid's numbers is beyond ridiculous. There's no way McDavid hits those numbers without a guy like Leon on his line. To me, that's not the undisputed best. No one made those claims when Benn out pointed Crosby, but man they are really on the horn to do it right now.

Anytime you bring some rationale into this, it's "Well you're just a hater, that 1 game though, oh the Sharks series!" etc...

 

[daver]

Yeah, sure, so without him he'd have 3 less points. You know how ridiculous that sounds right?

So what are you saying, without Draisaitl he's a 97pt player and Leon is a 74pt player? So they magically played on the same line for majority of the season and really, only 3pts are accounted for as the difference?

I mean, there's ridiculous and then there's just flat out hilarity.

I don't think it's fair to categorize McDavid's point totals as being reliant on Draisaitl. Crosby has proven he can produce regardless of linemates, I would be surprised if McDavid doesn't prove the same. It will be interesting to see if they stay as a combo or get split up to try to balance the offence.

 

[jinx33]

I wonder how people can even compare McDavid to Crosby right now, the kid is playing his second season, wait for a few more and hope that he will not ending injured.

He is undoubtedly the best of his generation and the future face of the league, but he still have a lot to play and prove to get along Crosby "supremacy". Hate to use this word but i don't see any other.

Anyway the topic is more about their level of play actually, Crosby is the best, offensive and defensive wise, than those two. But I acknowledged Connor winning Art Ross by a wide margin, this duel will be definitely a blast to follow for years to come.

Just funny that Edmonton and Pittsburgh had to tank hard to get lucky earning the big prize. Not proud of it being a Pens fan.

 

[Halla]

Crosby was not as good as McDavid at the same age. I say that with the upmost confidence. Albiet it was close.

Give McDavid a couple years and we will see. But Crosby is imo currently a better overall player than McDavid.

McDavid is generational Mathews is not. Great player that Mathews is he has never been considered generational by non bias hockey pundits. Having said that The future is murky for mortals and who knows mathews may end up better than both McDavid and Crosby.

what is generational then?

a kid that can step in as the #1C on the worst team in hockey, and finish 2nd in the ENTIRE LEAGUE in goals, isnt generational?

Matthews had more goals as a 19 year old draft +1 rookie than anyone in NHL history. let that sink in...but yeah the experts didnt peg him as one so he isnt.

scary to think what matthews will get himself as he gets better and with improved play from his rookie linemates. oh yeah and playing the majority of the PP like the other big names and not just an even split with bozak

 

[daver]

Have you read some of the replies by Oilers fans? It's almost delusional. No one is saying McDavid isn't great, but the fact that they would sooner undersell a kid like Leon just to pump McDavid's numbers is beyond ridiculous. There's no way McDavid hits those numbers without a guy like Leon on his line. To me, that's not the undisputed best. No one made those claims when Benn out pointed Crosby, but man they are really on the horn to do it right now.

Looks like they started playing together in late November. McDavid's PPG prior to that - 1.27, Draisaitl's - 0.73. After that, McDavid's PPG - 1.20, Draisaitl's - 1.00.

It's a partial year but that would indicate that Draisaitl benefitted from the pairing moreso than McDavid.

 

[leafsfan1234]

Crosby was dominated by Zetterberg in the playoffs when he was like 21-22, I think it's a little early to be saying Crosby level is out of McDavid's reach...

 

[themethod7]

Crosby was dominated by Zetterberg in the playoffs when he was like 21-22, I think it's a little early to be saying Crosby level is out of McDavid's reach...

You're talking about an in-his-prime Henrik Zetterberg, he won the Conn Smythe that year and IIRC was runner up for the Selke, who *didn't* he dominate??

 

[leafsfan1234]

You're talking about an in-his-prime Henrik Zetterberg, he won the Conn Smythe that year and IIRC was runner up for the Selke, who *didn't* he dominate??

Exactly... Sid wasn't Sid when he was McDavid's age either. There were other players in the league who were better than him when he was 20 as well.

 

[daver]

Crosby was dominated by Zetterberg in the playoffs when he was like 21-22, I think it's a little early to be saying Crosby level is out of McDavid's reach...

The OP is about current McDavid vs. current Crosby, and is not saying McDavid will never reach his level or surpass it. What happened nine years ago is not relevant.

 

[leafsfan1234]

The OP is about current McDavid vs. current Crosby, and is not saying McDavid will never reach his level or surpass it. What happened nine years ago is not relevant.

The OP is about if McDavid or Matthews will ever be able to reach prime Crosby level... I would think that comparing McDavid to Crosby at the same age is the best way to determine his potential.

 

[shakermaker]

Obscure statistics like him getting a shot in every game or arbitrarily qualifying the talent of linemates reeks of desperation.

Matthews had a hell of a year and he accomplished some amazing things but in what world has a 69 point rookie player separated himself from Eichel or Laine? That's a ridiculous notion considering Laine's rookie year was also very impressive and Eichel, while statistically inferior to Matthews' rookie year, also put up a solid sophomore year coming off a major injury. Matthews isn't a good enough two way player who excels in all situations at the moment to have created such a gap between himself and those two. Let's see how Matthews does next year with teams focusing on him more and harder match-ups before we act like Eichel and Laine have been left in the dust.

Didn't say they were left in the dust, just that he's separated himself from the other 2. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess you watched all of say 3 or 4 leafs games in there entirety this season? Saying he's not a good enough 2 way player after likely barely watching him play reeks of BS.

He does so many things without the puck that the other two flat out have not been able to do, the guy has everything anyone would want in a #1 C. Completely different player.

What does 40 goals and leading the league in even strength goals reek of? I'll tell you what it reeks of.... Excellence.

 

[McOylerz]

The OP is about if McDavid or Matthews will ever be able to reach prime Crosby level... I would think that comparing McDavid to Crosby at the same age is the best way to determine his potential.

The OP is about current McDavid vs. current Crosby, and is not saying McDavid will never reach his level or surpass it. What happened nine years ago is not relevant.

Actually, most of the argument is based on the first reply to the OP.

They're never going to overtake peak Crosby, that guy's one of the top 5 or 6 greatest ever I'd think.

I know I'm biased so I will just say to those who are saying Crosby is better because McDavid had Draisaitl, remember that Crosby has played with Malkin on and off since 2008. They have been on the same line frequently - actually I remember Jordan Staal anchoring the second line while those two worked together with Pascal Dupuis on the first line, not only that, but they play together on the powerplay often as well. Minimizing McDavid because of Draisaitl is foolish.

Having said that, Crosby still clearly has a gear that McDavid has not learned yet. It's the gear that fights through the abusive checking and just wills his team to win. I hope McDavid can find that gear - I don't think he has yet, but anyone saying he never will is shortsighted.

I agree with the OP - what a pleasure to be able to watch these guys play. Here's hoping they meet in the finals...

 

[Cory Trevor]

5-6 what? Centers? Arguable (99, 66, Beliveau, Esposito, Messier, Sakic, Trottier, Clarke, Yzerman, and Fedorov all have a case being above him). 5-6 players? Not even close.

Eh. Messier and Beliveau are debatable.

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

You mean every Leafs record? Because some people claimed his rookie season as the best rookie season in the NHL which I mean, its not only false, but hilariously biased and narrow minded.

Yes he probably meant Leaf records. Regardless still an excellent rookie season. Finished 2nd o/a in goals this year.

Not to mention the only one of the three mentioned in this thread to lead his team to the post season in his rookie year.

Also the only one of the three in this thread to have won a Calder trophy.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Crosby was not as good as McDavid at the same age. I say that with the upmost confidence. Albiet it was close.

Give McDavid a couple years and we will see. But Crosby is imo currently a better overall player than McDavid.

McDavid is generational Mathews is not. Great player that Mathews is he has never been considered generational by non bias hockey pundits. Having said that The future is murky for mortals and who knows mathews may end up better than both McDavid and Crosby.

Crosby was absolutely just as good at the same age, even better if you ask me

 

[Woll Smoth]

You mean every Leafs record? Because some people claimed his rookie season as the best rookie season in the NHL which I mean, its not only false, but hilariously biased and narrow minded.

I'll take things that no one said for 500.

 

[Fugazy]

I am a huge Penguins fan. An even bigger Mario and Sid fan. Having said that, McDavid is absolutely the real deal. He has as good a shot as anyone at becoming just as good as Sid.

Agreed. I think it's wise to wait until they've got a few more years in the league and larger sample size before we start comparing them to established, elite level players like Crosby.

 

[daver]

The OP is about if McDavid or Matthews will ever be able to reach prime Crosby level... I would think that comparing McDavid to Crosby at the same age is the best way to determine his potential.

So by age 22, Crosby had two SCF appearances, a Cup, a playoff scoring title in one year and the 2nd highest point total in 20 years in another including the highest goal total in 20 years. He had one playoff series out of nine where he wasn't a PPG or better when he was targeted by the best one on one defender at the time and a Top 5 defenseman all-time.

Here are the playoff scoring stats for those three years:

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...mesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,gamesPlayed

 

[leafsfan1234]

So by age 22, Crosby had two SCF appearances, a Cup, a playoff scoring title in one year and the 2nd highest point total in 20 years in another including the highest goal total in 20 years. He had one playoff series out of nine where he wasn't a PPG or better when he was targeted by the best one on one defender at the time and a Top 5 defenseman all-time.

Here are the playoff scoring stats for those three years:

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...mesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,gamesPlayed

Yes, I already know that Crosby is one of the best players of all time, you don't need to remind me. McDavid's draft +1 year is almost identical to Sid's (don't bring up the point difference, there's far fewer PPs handed out today), so I don't see any reason why we can't wait and see if he can match Crosby in the coming years.