Mulletman
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- Feb 23, 2013
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You might want to leave this part out since McDavid has only hit 135 points once. Makes you sound like a Crosby fan...or the equivalent of a 135 point season/82 games.
You might want to leave this part out since McDavid has only hit 135 points once. Makes you sound like a Crosby fan...or the equivalent of a 135 point season/82 games.
And yet no Cups, so what does that all mean?
Since the 2024-25 season is in progress I can’t count those games yet from HockeyReference’s adjusted stat page but I took McDavid from his rookie year to last year (2015-16 to 2023-24) and have his era adjusted totals of 361 G, 694 A and 1055 points in 681 era adjusted games. In reality it was 645 games but that site adjusts each season in history to 82 games so he gets an extra 26 from 2021 and 10 from 2020. Every player on this list gets extra games (and numbers) from lockout seasons or seasons of different schedule lengths in the past.This is pretty misleading since Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin played a bulk of those games in a significantly lower scoring era (early to mid 2010s)
And honestly, most of their GP dont reach the high scoring levels of the last 2-3 seasons, with the exception of 2005.
Not saying McDavid isn't the best player since Lemieux, not really here to argue that... but the level of seperation between him, Crosby and Ovechkin is not as wide as the raw stats you posted indicate.
So doesn't matter if it is counting stats or adjusted era stats it says the same thing. He is miles above his own era and even the generation before him. But miles below the 2 of 3 top 3 players of all time. And as of right now fits nicely into the top 3 for forwards on current pace. The 3rd of the top 3 is there because of what he did at his position and just how he changed the way the game was played in his day and for the rest of the nhl after him.Since the 2024-25 season is in progress I can’t count those games yet from HockeyReference’s adjusted stat page but I took McDavid from his rookie year to last year (2015-16 to 2023-24) and have his era adjusted totals of 361 G, 694 A and 1055 points in 681 era adjusted games. In reality it was 645 games but that site adjusts each season in history to 82 games so he gets an extra 26 from 2021 and 10 from 2020. Every player on this list gets extra games (and numbers) from lockout seasons or seasons of different schedule lengths in the past.
With that said here are the 10 players I posted in the initial post you responded to at McDavid’s 681 games played era adjusted. He still dominates to a very large degree. I also included Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe and Jagr for some legends comparisons at the same games played. The only players that outdo McDavid statistically when era adjusted are Gretzky and Lemieux. That’s it. Quite remarkable. Gretzky’s separation from Lemieux is also the same separation Lemieux himself has on McDavid (Lemieux at 91% of Gretzky and McDavid 91% of Lemieux). Definitely in the process of creating a big 5 rather than a big 4 all time.
McDavid: 361 G, 694 A, 1055 P (1.55)
Crosby: 348 G, 622 A, 970 P (1.42)
Ovechkin: 465 G, 412 A, 877 P (1.29)
Malkin: 343 G, 522 A, 865 P (1.27)
Draisaitl: 336 G, 487 A, 823 P (1.21)
Kucherov: 311 G, 495 A, 806 P (1.18)
Panarin: 271 G, 527 A, 798 P (1.17)
Stamkos: 407 G, 348 A, 755 P (1.11)
Kane: 291 G, 461 A, 752 P (1.10)
MacKinnon: 272 G, 463 A, 735 P (1.08)
Legends:
Gretzky: 453 G, 825 A, 1278 P (1.88)
Lemieux: 479 G, 684 A, 1163 P (1.71)
Jagr: 351 G, 527 A, 878 P (1.29)
Orr: 252 G, 613 A, 865 P (1.27)
Howe: 334 G, 430 A, 764 P (1.12)
Thanks for digging those up. McDavid’s run is of course more impressive
Haven't you repeatedly rejected the idea of adjusting for era? Or am I mistaking that?
I happen to agree that McDavid's run is more impressive, but that's because the scoring environment for Lafleur and Esposito (and Gretzky) was wildly different and significantly inflates their stats. If someone disagrees with that manner of adjustment, then I really don't know what the rationale is for saying McDavid's fewer points and way fewer goals in the same number of games is better.
To be fair those guys are around when it counts and have Cups. McDavid had his chance and blew it. No show in game 7. Don't think MacKinnon would choke like that.
You’re mistaken. What I’ve repeatedly expressed is my disdain for using flawed adjusted statistics as a core fact in arguments, as if the projected fabricated numbers really happened, i.e. when some pretend Crosby scored 130-140 points each season during the 2010-2011 through 2012-2013 timeframe, or that 104 points in 2013-2014 comes anywhere close to 153 points in 2022-2023.
Of course, Crosby was a secondary assist merchant that season whereas McDavid was a killer goal scorer, so that ought to have any reasonable hockey fan concluding that McDavid's season is several tiers higher.
MacKinnon has 1 point in four game 7s(power play assist) and is a -3. You’re right he’s around when it matters, namely he’s around a better FO with much better roster construction than the Oilers.To be fair those guys are around when it counts and have Cups. McDavid had his chance and blew it. No show in game 7. Don't think MacKinnon would choke like that.
The other guy is the third best penguin I’ve seen I’d say. Mario goes without saying and jags I also believe was better. 1995-2001 Jagr (and even adding in 2006 for 8 seasons) is better than anything Crosby did. He doesn’t have 7-8 seasons when combined to match up to that. It’s much the same with McDavid now since 2018 and he’s still only 27 so it could and will most likely get far worse. I know I may get attacked for this but I think many overrate Crosby even if he is a 6-10 all time lock for skaters. Maybe not overrated overall as a player but definitely as a top end producer.McDavid is a top five player to ever lace them up. The other guy could have been, but that ship sailed long ago.
Nah Crosby would never be considered behind Jagr for second best penguin. Crosby just played his 1300th game and they're practically identical through that point with 1625 points for Jagr and 1622 for Crosby. Only reason Crosby doesn't have 4-5 art rosses himself is some ill timed missed games in seasons he was dominating. Doesn't diminish his actual level of play. Despite that he still has 2 richards, 2 conn smythes, and 1 hart on him. And that's not even getting into attitude issues that Jagr had towards the end of his time with the penguins.The other guy is the third best penguin I’ve seen I’d say. Mario goes without saying and jags I also believe was better. 1995-2001 Jagr (and even adding in 2006 for 8 seasons) is better than anything Crosby did. He doesn’t have 7-8 seasons when combined to match up to that. It’s much the same with McDavid now since 2018 and he’s still only 27 so it could and will most likely get far worse. I know I may get attacked for this but I think many overrate Crosby even if he is a 6-10 all time lock for skaters. Maybe not overrated overall as a player but definitely as a top end producer.
I mean, they got lucky with a Toews trade and a rebuild project in Nichushkin. Makar ended up being a generational dman that they got when they were horrible for 10 years (just like the Oilers were able to get Drai). Hockey is a team sport and a lot of things need to go right to win a Cup in today's game. Edmonton has been close for the past 3 years, a few things going right and they have a Cup as well.MacKinnon has 1 point in four game 7s(power play assist) and is a -3. You’re right he’s around when it matters, namely he’s around a better FO with much better roster construction than the Oilers.
The other guy is the third best penguin I’ve seen I’d say. Mario goes without saying and jags I also believe was better. 1995-2001 Jagr (and even adding in 2006 for 8 seasons) is better than anything Crosby did. He doesn’t have 7-8 seasons when combined to match up to that. It’s much the same with McDavid now since 2018 and he’s still only 27 so it could and will most likely get far worse. I know I may get attacked for this but I think many overrate Crosby even if he is a 6-10 all time lock for skaters. Maybe not overrated overall as a player but definitely as a top end producer.
Fair but I’m solely talking prime and peak. To me he was better in that regard.Nah Crosby would never be considered behind Jagr for second best penguin. Crosby just played his 1300th game and they're practically identical through that point with 1625 points for Jagr and 1622 for Crosby. Only reason Crosby doesn't have 4-5 art rosses himself is some ill timed missed games in seasons he was dominating. Doesn't diminish his actual level of play. Despite that he still has 2 richards, 2 conn smythes, and 1 hart on him. And that's not even getting into attitude issues that Jagr had towards the end of his time with the penguins.
That i could see. In terms of legacy to the penguins no chance.Fair but I’m solely talking prime and peak. To me he was better in that regard.
Absolutely. I only meant peak/prime level of play. He’s going to be the longest tenured captain in history and could have the most points for a single franchise in NHL history. His longevity and consistency is more than you could ever ask for and he is a perfect face of a franchise. We have been blessed in this way for sure. I just think at times people forget how good Jagr was at his best and to me and sometimes Crosby’s “whole package” gets conflated with his top end offensive output/capabilities.Jagr was absolutely better, in terms of peak level of play, but I understand the fascination of Crosby lacing them up for 20+ years with the Penguins and valuing a guy almost as good who has never seemed discontent.
One thing I find remarkable about Crosby’s tenure is that he could play over 1500 games for you guys. Lemieux and Jagr combined for a little over 1700. Extraordinary longevity considering it looked like early retirement for awhile there.
Of course. I’d never argue penguins career or legacy for the two.That i could see. In terms of legacy to the penguins no chance.
Absolutely. I only meant peak/prime level of play. He’s going to be the longest tenured captain in history and could have the most points for a single franchise in NHL history. His longevity and consistency is more than you could ever ask for and he is a perfect face of a franchise. We have been blessed in this way for sure. I just think at times people forget how good Jagr was at his best and to me and sometimes Crosby’s “whole package” gets conflated with his top end offensive output/capabilities.
Of course. I’d never argue penguins career or legacy for the two.
Most people I talk hockey with that have a good grip on it understand that fully. I’ve personally always known and understood that. The rational fan here sees it. I’ll be transparent and say that I have always been a huge fan of his game. I got to see him countless times in the late 90s when he was at his best (and in the playoffs when we needed it) and I’ll never forget that. I defend him more than most and may be biased to a degree but so be it haha. The guy has his flaws but overall I never (and most of my friends here) never held anything against him. You’ll still have some sour fans in the fanbase at large and that’ll always be there but right now I feel like most have a fondness and appreciation for him.In regards to how Jagr left on bad terms, what’s the average pulse amongst rational Pittsburgh fans these days? Do they understand that the guy got tired of doing all the lifting during his prime?
So many people have the most stupid takes in here without doing research. It’s almost sad to see.MacKinnon has 1 point in four game 7s(power play assist) and is a -3. You’re right he’s around when it matters, namely he’s around a better FO with much better roster construction than the Oilers.
MacKinnon has 1 point in four game 7s(power play assist) and is a -3. You’re right he’s around when it matters, namely he’s around a better FO with much better roster construction than the Oilers.
While the ship that could have helped get McDavid a Cup was never boarded, Which is worse?McDavid is a top five player to ever lace them up. The other guy could have been, but that ship sailed long ago.
While the ship that could have helped get McDavid a Cup was never boarded, Which is worse?
I see it as a waste.
Thumbs up the three times Crosby's name appears on the Cup and those two Conn Smythe's lol.
This is pretty misleading since Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin played a bulk of those games in a significantly lower scoring era (early to mid 2010s)
And honestly, most of their GP dont reach the high scoring levels of the last 2-3 seasons, with the exception of 2005.
Not saying McDavid isn't the best player since Lemieux, not really here to argue that... but the level of seperation between him, Crosby and Ovechkin is not as wide as the raw stats you posted indicate.