McDavid’s performance over the past 500 games

[filinski77]

Has he actually exceeded them? When he was entering the league, I wasn't expecting him to compete equally with players like Kucherov and MacKinnon for scoring titles. There have been maybe 2 dominant seasons or so. Otherwise, he's been rather evenly matched with the top scorers, though more consistent than them.

Someone who's exceeded expectations is Draisaitl. McDavid? I don't think so.

Not sure how he didn't exceed expectations, guy has the 3rd most Art Rosses of all-time, and has a decent chance at being tied for (or straight up) 2nd all time.

Gretzky	11​
Lemieux	6​
Howe	6​
McDavid	5​
Jagr	5​
Esposito	5​

And he has by no means been "competing equally" with players like Kucherov and Mackinnon for scoring titles. Mackinnon has won zero, and Kucherov has 2 to McDavids 5.

Realistically, since McDavids rookie year (so 9 full seasons), Kucherov and Mackinnon both have 2 MAX seasons that were better than McDavid. So McDavids biggest competition in the last 9 years are both 2-7 in having better seasons.

From 2017 onwards (not counting McDavids rookie year since he only played half the season), he's been AT WORST 12% behind 1st place in points. He's literally either won the Ross, or been not too far behind. Mackinnon has only 2 years closer than 15%, and 3 years closer than 23%. Kucherov has been better for sure than Mackinnon, but still not even close to McDavid.

	Point Leader	McDavid	Kucherov	Mackinnon	McDavid - from pt leader	Kucherov - from pt leader	Mackinnon - from pt leader
2017​	100​	100​	85​	53​	0%​	-15%​	-47%​
2018​	108​	108​	100​	97​	0%​	-7%​	-10%​
2019​	128​	116​	128​	99​	-9%​	0%​	-23%​
2020​	110​	97​	85​	93​	-12%​	-23%​	-15%​
2021​	105​	105​	0​	65​	0%​	-100%​	-38%​
2022​	123​	123​	69​	88​	0%​	-44%​	-28%​
2023​	153​	153​	113​	111​	0%​	-26%​	-27%​
2024​	144​	132​	144​	140​	-8%​	0%​	-3%​

If you want to talk about competing for Rosses: McDavid has a significantly better track record of competing for Rosses than both. Mackinnon isn't even close.

Rank	Year	Player	% above #2	% behind #1
1​	2021​	McDavid	25%​
2​	2023​	McDavid	20%​
3​	2017​	McDavid	12%​
4​	2019​	Kucherov	10%​
5​	2022​	McDavid	7%​
6​	2018​	McDavid	6%​
7​	2024​	Kucherov	3%​
8​	2024​	Mackinnon		-3%​
9​	2018​	Kucherov		-7%​
10​	2024​	McDavid		-8%​
11​	2019​	McDavid		-9%​
12​	2018​	Mackinnon		-10%​
13​	2020​	McDavid		-12%​
14​	2020​	Mackinnon		-15%​
15​	2017​	Kucherov		-15%​
16​	2020​	Kucherov		-23%​
17​	2019​	Mackinnon		-23%​
18​	2023​	Kucherov		-26%​
19​	2023​	Mackinnon		-27%​
20​	2022​	Mackinnon		-28%​
21​	2021​	Mackinnon		-38%​
22​	2022​	Kucherov		-44%​
23​	2017​	Mackinnon		-47%​
24​	2021​	Kucherov		-100%​

 

[PuckG]

That one guy is going to come in here any second to talk about McDavid backchecking…

 

[Barrie22]

Has he actually exceeded them? When he was entering the league, I wasn't expecting him to compete equally with players like Kucherov and MacKinnon for scoring titles. There have been maybe 2 dominant seasons or so. Otherwise, he's been rather evenly matched with the top scorers, though more consistent than them.

Someone who's exceeded expectations is Draisaitl. McDavid? I don't think so.

Even with mack and kuch?

Since mcdavid entered the league

Mcdavid 1017 points in 668 games.
Mack since he entered the league 939 points in 818 games.
Kuch 907 points in 747 games.

Macks and kuch entire careers are way behind.

Both kuch and mack broke out the same season 2017-18. Since then mack has 733 points in 518 points. Kuch has 673 points in 462 games. Mcdavid has 868 points in 541 games.

Mack 1.41 points per game
Kuch 1.45 points per game
Mcdavid 1.59 points per game.

Kuch and mack are having career years, mcdavid is having normal seasons. And even then it takes there all for them to even have a chance to beat mcdavid.

 

[Goose]

Has he actually exceeded them? When he was entering the league, I wasn't expecting him to compete equally with players like Kucherov and MacKinnon for scoring titles. There have been maybe 2 dominant seasons or so. Otherwise, he's been rather evenly matched with the top scorers, though more consistent than them.

Someone who's exceeded expectations is Draisaitl. McDavid? I don't think so.

Yeah I mean that’s the problem with hype, on pace for a potential Top 5 player of all time and you’ve just met expectations, that’s it, which in of itself comes with a tinge of disappointment for some nitwits.

Same thing as LeBron in the NBA.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Thanks for digging those up. McDavid’s run is of course more impressive, but credit where credit is due in regards to raw totals.

Why is McDavid's run more impressive than Esposito or Lafleur's?

 

[Video Nasty]

Why is McDavid's run more impressive than Esposito or Lafleur's?

Not playing that game with you.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Not playing that game with you.

lol ok

 

[Grifter3511]

Yeah I mean that’s the problem with hype, on pace for a potential Top 5 player of all time and you’ve just met expectations, that’s it, which in of itself comes with a tinge of disappointment for some nitwits.

Same thing as LeBron in the NBA.

Yeah, how dare the guy who was labeled generational only end up being generational. Not like all those other generational players over the past 20 years who ended up being...not generational.

 

[um]

Best player of the 21st century.

Easily.

When people say otherwise I just assume they don’t watch hockey.

 

[um]

Yeah I mean that’s the problem with hype, on pace for a potential Top 5 player of all time and you’ve just met expectations, that’s it, which in of itself comes with a tinge of disappointment for some nitwits.

Same thing as LeBron in the NBA.

What the heck are you talking about?

Did you just say LeBron is disappointing? That’s a wild take.

 

[Fatass]

How many Cups? For the great players, that’s how they’re measured. No Cup = a tier lower than those other greats who lead the teams to Cups. So 500 games of greatness, but still no Cup. So lower in legacy that the other greats who led their clubs to Cups.

Easily.

When people say otherwise I just assume they don’t watch hockey.

Crosby and Kane each have three Cups. Imo these great players define themselves by their Cups. We might not, but for certain they do. If McDavid never leads a club to the Cup he will think himself in a category with Dionne and not with Crosby. His desire to win a Cup is what drives him.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Has he actually exceeded them? When he was entering the league, I wasn't expecting him to compete equally with players like Kucherov and MacKinnon for scoring titles.

Crosby got beat clean for an Art Ross by Henrik Sedin. He's still in the conversation for 5OAT, which arguably exceeds even his hype given players that came before him like Lindros.

 

[Goose]

What the heck are you talking about?

Did you just say LeBron is disappointing? That’s a wild take.

I said some nitwits think that, not that I do. I.e. guys like Skip Bayless.

 

[um]

How many Cups? For the great players, that’s how they’re measured. No Cup = a tier lower than those other greats who lead the teams to Cups. So 500 games of greatness, but still no Cup. So lower in legacy that the other greats who led their clubs to Cups.


Crosby and Kane each have three Cups. Imo these great players define themselves by their Cups. We might not, but for certain they do. If McDavid never leads a club to the Cup he will think himself in a category with Dionne and not with Crosby. His desire to win a Cup is what drives him.

I’ve seen McDavid play for a cup.

Like I said, you’re just not watching if you think those guys are better.

 

[pnep]

Esposito from 09/01/1968 to 01/09/1975 = 398 goals, 866 points (500gp)

Esposito from 1968-11-14 to 1975-02-08 = 403 goals, 874 points (500gp)

 

[bleedgreen]

He’s already in my top five and I could care less generally about the Oilers. I’m getting older and I got to watch that early 90’s generation that still had a competitive Gretzky, Lemieux at his peak and all the stars of that generation. Being from that time I’ve watched replays of games of Bobby Orr. I saw very little of Howe so I always feel undereducated speaking about him. I feel I’ve seen most of the best of the best.

McDavid is already one of the best of the best. Zero question.

 

[Holkoun]

Come on, McDavid is clearly the best player of NHL for last 5+ seasons or so… by margin we have not seen like last 20 years.

 

[authentic]

Since 2020-21, regular season
McDavid, 1.73ppg 548 points
Kucherov, 1.55ppg 360 points
Mackinnon, 1.52ppg 444 points

Playoffs
McDavid, 1.74ppg 99 points, 57gp
Kucherov, 1.26ppg 72 points, 57gp
Mackinnon, 1.24ppg 60 points, 48gp

Here's the thing, the only players that compete with McDavid, are top 4 players having career years while McDavid has poor to average years.

His expectation was being the best player in the league, not the clear cut #1, no contest, so yes he has exceeded expectations.

His playoff dominance over Kucherov and MacKinnon in points per game is staggering and was certainly not expected. Combine that with his 105 points in 56 games while no one on any other team had more than 69 then his 153 points while no one on any other team had more than 113 an yeah he has comfortably exceeded expectations. In the very midst of his 153 point season most posters here including myself doubted he could actually reach 150; many even firmly believed he wouldn’t clear 130.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Why is McDavid's run more impressive than Esposito or Lafleur's?

my dads childhood hero lafleur who he talks about meeting in person and cried when he died… and he’s not even dumb enough to argue that

 

[gimzo23]

Even with mack and kuch?

Since mcdavid entered the league

Mcdavid 1017 points in 668 games.
Mack since he entered the league 939 points in 818 games.
Kuch 907 points in 747 games.

Macks and kuch entire careers are way behind.

Both kuch and mack broke out the same season 2017-18. Since then mack has 733 points in 518 points. Kuch has 673 points in 462 games. Mcdavid has 868 points in 541 games.

Mack 1.41 points per game
Kuch 1.45 points per game
Mcdavid 1.59 points per game.

Kuch and mack are having career years, mcdavid is having normal seasons. And even then it takes there all for them to even have a chance to beat mcdavid.

Skill and talent wise he's as rare as they come, obviously. But as good as he has been up to today, you can't play the stats game to justify him being added to the big 4. He hasn't separated himself from the rest of the best as clearly and dominantly as 99 or 66 have. And I'm aware it's more difficult to do so in today's game. But I have no doubt 66 would regularly and easily put up 150-160+ points in his prime today. Jagr wouldn't be too far off.

 

[Barrie22]

Skill and talent wise he's as rare as they come, obviously. But as good as he has been up to today, you can't play the stats game to justify him being added to the big 4. He hasn't separated himself from the rest of the best as clearly and dominantly as 99 or 66 have. And I'm aware it's more difficult to do so in today's game. But I have no doubt 66 would regularly and easily put up 150-160+ points in his prime today. Jagr wouldn't be too far off.

How has he not seperated himself from the pack? He is 95th all time in points, the only active players above him are tavares (who mcdavid will pass by the end of the season), giroux (who he will most likely pass by the end of the season), stamkos, kopitar, malkin, kane, crosby, ovechkin. Everything those players above him have are 10 years more in the league.

Of his peers in which he entered the league with or around, there is nobody close to him. Next closest active player is marchand 64 points back, then mack at 74 points back.

No matter what stat you use, those players full careers which started 2 years earlier then mcdavids or the stats since mcdavid entered the league. There is a massive gap between the 3.

To add, since mcdavid entered the league he has a 142 point lead over the next closest player, which is Draisaitl. Then mack 179 points back. Then kuch 193 points back.

For this to be a battle, then mcdavid would need to miss an entire season just for those players to get within striking distance. And some of them it would need to be a season and a half.

And about the not doing enough yet to be placed in the top 4, well obviously as he hasn't even played 1000 games yet. But he is well above his competition and is pacing to be the 2nd player in nhl history to reach 2000 points. And he is on pace to only do that in 1300 games. 100+ games less then gretzky played, 400 less then jagr,

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

How has he not seperated himself from the pack? He is 95th all time in points, the only active players above him are tavares (who mcdavid will pass by the end of the season), giroux (who he will most likely pass by the end of the season), stamkos, kopitar, malkin, kane, crosby, ovechkin. Everything those players above him have are 10 years more in the league.

Of his peers in which he entered the league with or around, there is nobody close to him. Next closest active player is marchand 64 points back, then mack at 74 points back.

No matter what stat you use, those players full careers which started 2 years earlier then mcdavids or the stats since mcdavid entered the league. There is a massive gap between the 3.

To add, since mcdavid entered the league he has a 142 point lead over the next closest player, which is Draisaitl. Then mack 179 points back. Then kuch 193 points back.

For this to be a battle, then mcdavid would need to miss an entire season just for those players to get within striking distance. And some of them it would need to be a season and a half.

And about the not doing enough yet to be placed in the top 4, well obviously as he hasn't even played 1000 games yet. But he is well above his competition and is pacing to be the 2nd player in nhl history to reach 2000 points. And he is on pace to only do that in 1300 games. 100+ games less then gretzky played, 400 less then jagr,

He's clearly been the best the last 7 or so years and is on a trajectory to be #5 all time but to reach Gretzky or Lemieux class the separation needs to be higher. Lemieux would never be outscored by Draisaitl, Kucherov or Mackinnon.

We already know how dominant Gretzky was in his prime, but this is the ppg separation Lemieux had during his prime, 87-88 to 95-96.

1. Lemieux 2.26
2. Gretzky 1.75
3. Lindros 1.46
4. Yzerman 1.45
5. Lafontaine 1.34

as great as McDavid is, he's not at this level of dominance.

 

[JPT]

Never even heard of this guy wow

 

[Barrie22]

He's clearly been the best the last 7 or so years and is on a trajectory to be #5 all time but to reach Gretzky or Lemieux class the separation needs to be higher. Lemieux would never be outscored by Draisaitl, Kucherov or Mackinnon.

We already know how dominant Gretzky was in his prime, but this is the ppg separation Lemieux had during his prime, 87-88 to 95-96.

1. Lemieux 2.26
2. Gretzky 1.75
3. Lindros 1.46
4. Yzerman 1.45
5. Lafontaine 1.34

as great as McDavid is, he's not at this level of dominance.

But yet nobody is saying he is going to surpass mario, wayne or even bobby. Those 3 most likely stay in those positions until someone is able to surpass Gretzky. But he is easily on pace for that 4th spot. Which is usually held by 1 of 3 players, howe, messier, jagr.

As of today, if he were to stop playing i would personally put him in the top 20.

5 art ross trophies (tied for 3rd most).
3 hart trophies (tied for 3rd most).
4 ted lindsay trophies (2nd most).

 

[jigglysquishy]

. Which is usually held by 1 of 3 players, howe, messier, jagr.

This is actual lunacy.

There is zero argument for Messier or Jagr over Howe.

Howe is not only firmly entrenched in the Big Four, but has a logical lock on the #2 spot ahead of Orr and Lemieux.