Maybe Tavares is the problem

[notDatsyuk]

I'd argue some of that had to do with Marner being targeted by Babcock. Mitch and his camp were under the expectation that the Leafs would be retaining Babcock's services until 2023 after the guy had signed a first of its kind 8-year $50M contract. The incident in his rookie season, where he was tasked with ranking his teammates' work ethic, is something that could have turned him into a pariah and also something that doesn't seem like an isolated incident either. Unlike Keefe, Babcock rarely gave Marner and Matthews ice time together and I'm assuming that aforementioned ego / lack of humility really got in the way of contract negotiations ala "if he (Babcock) stays here, I'm gonna ask for a million more" or something to that effect.

I also agree with Marner being a terrible leader, but I don't think it's just him. The longest tenured defender on the team frequently escapes criticism, and Tavares's lack of anything resembling emotion is readily brushed aside, while key guys outside of the core like Brodie and Kampf have had some of the worst seasons wearing the blue and white. Zilch from this group.

I'm hoping Berube is a breath of fresh air and is able to knock Marner down a peg or two to get him more focused on hockey and less on the discourse outside of the rink.

If you think Rielly and Tavares haven't been getting their fair share of criticism, you haven't been reading enough threads.

The difference is that Rielly, like Nylander, has been making about one third less than Marner, and Tavares will be looking for a small fraction of what Marner will be looking for on their next contracts.

If you're making or expecting to make that much more, and your performance isn't in line, you deserve more criticism.

 

[keonsbitterness]

However he didn’t say pedestal he said God. If that was just an isolated incident it could be explained away but when added to all his other petulant interviews it speaks to his general sense that he can do no wrong

For the record, here's the quote:

"It means the world," Marner said Monday of suiting up for the Original Six franchise. "We're looked upon as kind of gods here, to be honest. Something that you really appreciate.

"The love that you get here from this fan base … this attention is [unlike] any other."

Not THE God, but gods.

Your god(s) may vary.

 

[Stephen]

I'd argue some of that had to do with Marner being targeted by Babcock. Mitch and his camp were under the expectation that the Leafs would be retaining Babcock's services until 2023 after the guy had signed a first of its kind 8-year $50M contract. The incident in his rookie season, where he was tasked with ranking his teammates' work ethic, is something that could have turned him into a pariah and also something that doesn't seem like an isolated incident either. Unlike Keefe, Babcock rarely gave Marner and Matthews ice time together and I'm assuming that aforementioned ego / lack of humility really got in the way of contract negotiations ala "if he (Babcock) stays here, I'm gonna ask for a million more" or something to that effect.

I also agree with Marner being a terrible leader, but I don't think it's just him. The longest tenured defender on the team frequently escapes criticism, and Tavares's lack of anything resembling emotion is readily brushed aside, while key guys outside of the core like Brodie and Kampf have had some of the worst seasons wearing the blue and white. Zilch from this group.

I'm hoping Berube is a breath of fresh air and is able to knock Marner down a peg or two to get him more focused on hockey and less on the discourse outside of the rink.

To different extents, all of Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Rielly and Nylander are losing popularity in this market because we’ve never had good times in the playoffs with them. It’s getting worse year over year, and they’re all failures in their own ways individually and as a team.

With Marner, I especially don’t appreciate all the behind the scenes airing of grievances over rookie bonuses and how that situation with Babcock caused this and that. Babcock was let go half a decade ago. All this time Mitch corporation has come across as a diva, always aligning with what Auston gets and pushing the Mitch vs Willie divide and acting like he’s owed something extra for being hometown boy.

Still find it annoying as hell that every time Marner criticism comes up everyone has to do the usual preamble about how talented he is before making the point. How talented are you? You going to go off on a McDavid level playoff run one of these years?

If Mitch is going to be brought back, his leadership, salary and place on the pecking order needs to be adjusted. He cannot be at the top of the pecking order.

 

[Racer88]

marner treated like gods

For the record, here's the quote:

Not THE God, but gods.

Your god(s) may vary.

Ahhhhh worshiping false idols ……..that’s a no no

 

[keonsbitterness]

Ahhhhh worshiping false idols ……..that’s a no no

I only worship my mirror reflection.

 

[647Hockey]

Still find it annoying as hell that every time Marner criticism comes up everyone has to do the usual preamble about how talented he is before making the point. How talented are you? You going to go off on a McDavid level playoff run one of these years?

People who dont follow hockey closely just look at regular season stats as the barometer for salaries. And Marner's regular season stats prorated to 82 games (he gets injured a lot), he is a 95-100 pt player. So based on that reliable regular season track record, he should be paid a lot.

But, playoff time his stats drop, and his game 5-7 he's a David Coppefield and disappears. Solid regular season player and hockey pool pick. Awful playoff performer and pool pick. lol

People typically dont look at playoff performances as part of the compensation, but it should always be a factor.

You cant expect the avg joe to know any better. But no doubt MM and his agent will push his regular season stats over his playoffs as much as possible, in hopes some GMs dont notice how bad he is in offence and giving up pucks, or taking bad penalties.

 

[notbias]

People who dont follow hockey closely just look at regular season stats as the barometer for salaries.

So every GM/agent/player? Those are the guys who don't follow hockey closely?

Show me which players are being paid based on their playoff performances.

 

[647Hockey]

So every GM/agent/player? Those are the guys who don't follow hockey closely?

Show me which players are being paid based on their playoff performances.

That's what I'm getting at.

Playoff performances should be factored in. But fans and team management some reason dont.

 

[Stephen]

People who dont follow hockey closely just look at regular season stats as the barometer for salaries. And Marner's regular season stats prorated to 82 games (he gets injured a lot), he is a 95-100 pt player. So based on that reliable regular season track record, he should be paid a lot.

But, playoff time his stats drop, and his game 5-7 he's a David Coppefield and disappears. Solid regular season player and hockey pool pick. Awful playoff performer and pool pick. lol

People typically dont look at playoff performances as part of the compensation, but it should always be a factor.

You cant expect the avg joe to know any better. But no doubt MM and his agent will push his regular season stats over his playoffs as much as possible, in hopes some GMs dont notice how bad he is in offence and giving up pucks, or taking bad penalties.

Yeah, I would agree with this take and add a little bit more context as well.

Mitch Marner was signed at 21 to his $10.9 million 6 year contract after he scored 94 points in 2018-19 in the last year of his ELC, which was a big jump from 69 points the year before.

That kind of jump in salary not only anticipated playoff success, but also probably bigger and better offensive numbers as he entered prime years.

He's missed some games some years, and he's been a consistent 90-99 point player in the meantime, but at that salary you'd want 100-115 points, maybe a 40 plus goal year in there too. If he's better than people like Pastrnak and Rantanen, shouldn't we have those uber numbers? He's not delivering at an Art Ross capable level either when all is said and done.

 

[Racer88]

I only worship my mirror reflection.

Absolutely

 

[Racer88]

So every GM/agent/player? Those are the guys who don't follow hockey closely?

Show me which players are being paid based on their playoff performances.

So it doesn’t matter what he does in the playoffs as long as he pads his points in the regular season? Kind of defeats the purpose of the post season

 

[ToneDog]

So every GM/agent/player? Those are the guys who don't follow hockey closely?

Show me which players are being paid based on their playoff performances.

Goodrow, Coleman, Hill, Barbashev, Paul, Binnington to name a few Watch what Bouchard gets now.

 

[notbias]

So it doesn’t matter what he does in the playoffs as long as he pads his points in the regular season? Kind of defeats the purpose of the post season

Complain to the agents/players/GMs... I am just saying how it is, not that I agree with it.

Goodrow, Coleman, Hill, Barbashev, Paul, Binnington to name a few Watch what Bouchard gets now.

There are a handful who are, 100% agree... then there are guys like Tkachuk, Barkov, Bobrovsky, basically all of Florida, and the entire league who is not.

Regular season is generally what everyone uses, there are some exceptions where dumb GMs will pay a guy like Coleman because of the way he plays.

 

[Racer88]

Complain to the agents/players/GMs... I am just saying how it is, not that I agree with it.



There are a handful who are, 100% agree... then there are guys like Tkachuk, Barkov, Bobrovsky, basically all of Florida, and the entire league who is not.

Regular season is generally what everyone uses, there are some exceptions where dumb GMs will pay a guy like Coleman because of the way he plays.

Fair enough

 

[Gabriel426]

To different extents, all of Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Rielly and Nylander are losing popularity in this market because we’ve never had good times in the playoffs with them. It’s getting worse year over year, and they’re all failures in their own ways individually and as a team.

With Marner, I especially don’t appreciate all the behind the scenes airing of grievances over rookie bonuses and how that situation with Babcock caused this and that. Babcock was let go half a decade ago. All this time Mitch corporation has come across as a diva, always aligning with what Auston gets and pushing the Mitch vs Willie divide and acting like he’s owed something extra for being hometown boy.

Still find it annoying as hell that every time Marner criticism comes up everyone has to do the usual preamble about how talented he is before making the point. How talented are you? You going to go off on a McDavid level playoff run one of these years?

If Mitch is going to be brought back, his leadership, salary and place on the pecking order needs to be adjusted. He cannot be at the top of the pecking order.

Cant pay a Beta on an Alpha salary.

 

[Mess]

Sportsnet's Nick Kypreos revealed that the Toronto Maple Leafs have discussed internally about stripping John Tavares of the Leafs' captaincy.​

Entering the final year of his 7-year, $77M deal with the Leafs and now eligible to sign an extension, the future of John Tavares is uncertain.

While Tavares has said that he intends to play out the final season of his contract with the Leafs, his future outside of this season is in question. Will he return on a team-friendly deal to finish his career? Will he leave his hometown team and sign with another contender? No one knows. Yesterday on Sportsnet, Nick Kypreos revealed that with Tavares entering the final year of his contract, the Leafs have discussed having Tavares hand over the captaincy to Auston Matthews.​

"From what I'm hearing, the Leafs are contemplating taking the captaincy away from [Tavares] and giving it to Auston [Matthews]. They will talk about it. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's real. It's a natural progression to understand that we've put all of our eggs in the Auston Matthews basket. We've made him the highest paid player in the league... so it's his team. The time is now. He is at peak Auston Matthews. It's time for you now to shoulder the responsibility, besides being the highest paid player in the league, to shoulder and carry, be the face of this franchise. I'm not necessarily saying he's the perfect guy, but it's his team."

It's a shocking revelation, but one that makes sense given that Matthews will be a Leaf for at least another four seasons as his extension begins in the upcoming season.

 

[Blaylock38]

Nylander is worse than Marner, that's his floor.

Why try to derail a thread with such nonsense.

 

[Commander Clueless]

I'm looking forward to next year when JT is on a nice retirement contract and we can stop this $11M conversation and stick to the important stuff.

Like how he's still slow as molasses

 

[Antropovsky]

Double post

 

[Antropovsky]

where are you getting your stats?

5vs5 Marner vs Nylander same lines:

Bertuzzi-Tavares-Marner vs. Bertuzzi-Tavares-Nylander:
- xGF: 0.93 lower
- xGA: 0.14 higher

.93 xgf higher for Nylander line, .14 xga higher for Nylander.

Knies-Matthews-Marner vs. Knies-Matthews-Nylander:
- xGF: 0.56 lower
- xGA: 0.06 lower

.56 xgf higher for Nylander, and .06 xga lower for Nylander.

Nylander blew Marner out of the water offensively, and was similar defensively.

Are we using a 7 game sample size (less for Nylander) after Nylander signed his contract?

According to Natural stat trick these were stats over the full season based on the # of mins they played on the indicated lines. However, it's consistent, Nylander way more effective offensively and similar defensively.

People indicate Marner is such a great defensive player. When he wasn't with Matthews his xga were not good.