::shakes head::
Nice try.
I like Frattin and hope he does become a good top 6 player, but it is quite the expectation, he has a point sorta. But one can hope.
Matt Frattin
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I like Frattin and hope he does become a good top 6 player, but it is quite the expectation, he has a point sorta. But one can hope.
gtwyc
FlyingHeadButts4All
His specific point is lousy cause frattin was only in the minors last season due to the lockout.
I remember Leafs fans saying he was there because he was playing poorly?
Regardless from what their fans say it seems that he has consistency issues, but hopefully he will put it all together here in LA
deeshamrock
Registered User
He's only had what not quite 2 years in the league? He may have struggled early but most recently in the playoffs vs the Bruins he was a very solid contributor and played consistantly well. I remember during that time reading an article that mentioned his being sent down in early Jan prior to the season becaues the coaches felt he ws lacking intensity. The author spectulated that might have been partially due to the knee injury, that some players are tenative in their play after (esp knees) an injury and suffer from a bit of lack of confidence. He felt that was part of what happened ther eand JVR's arrival created extra forwards.
He's not a Leaf anymore and based on what I saw in the playoffs, him working out all summer in LA , coming to a new team, new start and new coach, he should be given the benefit of the doubt. He might turn out to be a very productive power forward for either 2nd or 3rd line.
gtwyc
FlyingHeadButts4All
i think hell be an above average 2-3 line 'tweener for us and he skates well and is physical, and hes got the tools to be a full time 2nd line player. not many teams have a top six full of uber productive players. (see chicago and handzus). with our current cap situation, i think matt fraction is the best option available for us at 700K per year, if he can put up around 40 pts next year i think thats a win.
triplcrown
Registered User
I expect Toffoli's talent to win out for top 6.
Frattin is surprisingly un-established for a guy his age.
damacles1156
Registered User
- Feb 5, 2010
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Frattin is 25.....Most players don't hit prime till 28.
So is 25 now old ? Did I miss something ?
So is 25 now old ? Did I miss something ?
deeshamrock
Registered User
TT is a top 6 player, that was never the issue. But he's also not a power forward and a shooter like Carter. Eventually , he'll be a good fit on the 1st line. And it remains to be seen whether or not he can shift to LW. Not every player can nor should he be forced to if he's a natural RW and can't adjust. Having a playmaker, Power forward and shooter on each line is a better fit.
Frattin isn't old, only 25 and has less than 2 full years in the NHL and lost time due to injury. And given the opportunity this year to become a full time, 82 game player, based on the potential he's shown and most recently how well he played in the playoffs, he'll do fine establishing himself on whatever line Sutter chooses.
But I think that first line needs muscle and he's shown he is more than capable of being a good power forward who can hit and dish and drive the net. A good fit for the 2nd.
Toffoli needs to pack on muscle, like this kid
I am enrolling him for AARP
It's going to depend on coach Sutter if Frattin is a scorer next year. If he scores 20 goals this year he'll have to get power play time. I don't see Sutter taking Williams, or Stoll off the pp. There are guys on this team that the coach likes a lot, like Lewis, Stoll, and Dwight King. Even though a lot of kings fans don't like Dwight Kings game, the coach does. All you have do is look at Toffoli last year. I thought he was playing great, but that didn't stop Sutter from taking him out of the lineup, or cutting his ice time.
KopitarFAN
Reno Sucks!
It does become a little misleading when the Kings currently have so many guys who made a significant impact in the NHL well before 25 (Dewey, Voynov, Brown, Kopitar, Carter, Richards) and a number of others who have at least played a full-time role before 25 (Lewis, Martinez, Clifford, Muzzin, Nolan, King).
Holden Caulfield
He's guilty
Never understood where this myth comes from. Scoring peaks are generally 23-25 years old. There's a couple exceptions like the Sedin's, but for the most part players don't get much better past 25.
Not saying that players stop being useful are anything, and with a later bloomer like Frattin there is still the possibility of some development, but it's far from "most" players peaking at 28. Most players stay steady or go downhill from 25. 23-25 are peak ages, particularly for forwards.
The Tikkanen
Pest
The first time Frattin blows up somebody from the opposing teams you're gonna see his jersey around Staples. You talk about a guy who is the epitome of the Sutter/Lombardi philosophy and it's Frattin. He's young, he's still finding his way, he's cheap and hopefully his prime years will be in a Kings uniform. If he doesn't progress as we all hope and turns out as a 3rd line grinder you have Toffoli who could very well lock up the 2nd line winger spot regardless of how well Frattin plays in the pre season. Still, not the point, this is and always has been a 4 line team. Sutter has many pieces to play with thanks to Lombardi, I don't see any negatives to having a camp battle between Frattin and Toffoli.
Prime is usually 25-28/29. 28 is when the drop off is. Holden 23?isnt that too young to be a prime?
Not trying to make this about kopitar, but from what you're saying that kopitar is practically around the final year of his prime? I thought he just entered.
Not trying to make this about kopitar, but from what you're saying that kopitar is practically around the final year of his prime? I thought he just entered.
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kingsfan
President of the Todd McLellan fan club by default
The fact the NHL was locking players out when he was there doesn't factor in at all? Where else did these clearly brain dead Leafs fans expect him to play? He was in the AHL for a total of 6 days (or about two games) after the lockout ended.
He turned pro at the very end of the 2010-2011 season, so he's basically been a pro player for two seasons. He started 2011-2012 in the minors and after scoring 14 goals in 23 games, he's been in the NHL ever since, minus playing in the AHL again this year while the NHL was locking out the players. How much more established can he be?
Peak I think refers to physical peak, and the science backs up that men typically peak physically between 27 and 30 (at least for those that take care of themselves, like athletes, not eat hogies and pizza like me for the bulk of my adult life
) Also, while players do reach their career numbers earlier now a days, they often maintain them, or fairly close to, well into the late 20's, early 30's. They may have one big season when they are younger, but typically they hold fairly steady. Additionally, other aspects of their play (such as defense, penalty killing, etc. things that come with experience) tend to be better in their prime years and later, not when they are 23.Maybe a player is better or at his peak offensively at 23-25 for a forward, but overall, they are better at 28ish IMO. So think the 'peak' idea comes more from overall play, not just scoring.
Holden Caulfield
He's guilty
Peak I think refers to physical peak, and the science backs up that men typically peak physically between 27 and 30 (at least for those that take care of themselves, like athletes, not eat hogies and pizza like me for the bulk of my adult life
Maybe a player is better or at his peak offensively at 23-25 for a forward, but overall, they are better at 28ish IMO. So think the 'peak' idea comes more from overall play, not just scoring.
I looked it up again and found the article. Scoring prime is 23-27. After 27 these's a significant dropoff (22 is better than 28).
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2010/1/21/1261318/nhl-points-per-game-peak-age
Some might say that that depth players skew the data points due to being out of league then, how when taken a much closer look at star players we see that the dropoff still comes at age 26.
http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2012-06-29/sidney-crosby-contract-extension-mario-lemieux-pittsburgh-penguins-evgeni-malkin
If you want to say that players are more complete, you might be able to since that's impossible to judge. However after 26-27 you are very unlikely to get more offense and in fact likely to see a drop in offensive numbers from players. By the numbers. 24-26 is really the prime age for players. That's my only point.
I looked it up again and found the article. Scoring prime is 23-27. After 27 these's a significant dropoff (22 is better than 28).
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2010/1/21/1261318/nhl-points-per-game-peak-age
Some might say that that depth players skew the data points due to being out of league then, how when taken a much closer look at star players we see that the dropoff still comes at age 26.
http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2012-06-29/sidney-crosby-contract-extension-mario-lemieux-pittsburgh-penguins-evgeni-malkin
If you want to say that players are more complete, you might be able to since that's impossible to judge. However after 26-27 you are very unlikely to get more offense and in fact likely to see a drop in offensive numbers from players. By the numbers. 24-26 is really the prime age for players. That's my only point.
Thanks. I'm pretty surprised, I wonder why the drop off is so early. You'd think by that age they'd be in top physical shape. I wonder what the cause of it is. It's not age.
kingsfan
President of the Todd McLellan fan club by default
Some people are morons. Frattin will be a top 6 forward on the kings no matter how you look at it.
damacles1156
Registered User
- Feb 5, 2010
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The fact the NHL was locking players out when he was there doesn't factor in at all? Where else did these clearly brain dead Leafs fans expect him to play? He was in the AHL for a total of 6 days (or about two games) after the lockout ended.
He turned pro at the very end of the 2010-2011 season, so he's basically been a pro player for two seasons. He started 2011-2012 in the minors and after scoring 14 goals in 23 games, he's been in the NHL ever since, minus playing in the AHL again this year while the NHL was locking out the players. How much more established can he be?
Peak I think refers to physical peak, and the science backs up that men typically peak physically between 27 and 30 (at least for those that take care of themselves, like athletes, not eat hogies and pizza like me for the bulk of my adult life
Maybe a player is better or at his peak offensively at 23-25 for a forward, but overall, they are better at 28ish IMO. So think the 'peak' idea comes more from overall play, not just scoring.
Bingo.
J-Dub is a good example, he is a much better player now than when he was in his 20's. Although he scored more when he was younger.
Lets say 27 to 30(beyond) players are more complete ?
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Kingspiracy
Registered User
- Nov 13, 2006
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deeshamrock
Registered User
That would be exactly correct. The chart that Holden used (and the link given) cited players born between 1962 and 1979 and lumped defenseman in there , not just forwards from 21 to 29 only. I googled that subject and several articles and graphs did come up and most are similar, but slightly different. One of the better ones I read last night , was done in may 2012 and used forwards in the league since the lockout thru the end of 2012 reg. season. And although it did show goal scoring increase steadily to age 25-26, there was no significant dropoff after. There as a slight decline thru age 28 a bit more of a decline to 31 and that's when it dropped off.
It could be something as simple as the players in the first graph were not as well conditioned as today's players.
But something the author said is very close to what you said above. That 'peak scoring potential and peak performance potential' are 2 different areas.
He pointed out that from 26 to 32 or so, players are in their 'performance prime' and that their complete game is better, that although their goal scoring might dip, for the most part esp for top 6 players, their assists increased as did the PK and PP time. Younger players, those pre 25, and veteran players over 25 are not necessarily used in the same game situations That veterans who have gained experience are more often playing against top lines on other teams or their top D, and if on PK as well, their goal scoring will dip a bit. And that's because as they age, their complete game becomes better ,they mature and are used in a broader role for the good of the team.
SO he didn't want fans to freak out when they read the headline about 'peak scoring' and not to confuse with 'peak performance'.
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KingPurpleDinosaur
Bandwagon Kings Fan
I looked it up again and found the article. Scoring prime is 23-27. After 27 these's a significant dropoff (22 is better than 28).
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2010/1/21/1261318/nhl-points-per-game-peak-age
Some might say that that depth players skew the data points due to being out of league then, how when taken a much closer look at star players we see that the dropoff still comes at age 26.
http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2012-06-29/sidney-crosby-contract-extension-mario-lemieux-pittsburgh-penguins-evgeni-malkin
If you want to say that players are more complete, you might be able to since that's impossible to judge. However after 26-27 you are very unlikely to get more offense and in fact likely to see a drop in offensive numbers from players. By the numbers. 24-26 is really the prime age for players. That's my only point.
fascinating post. i do wonder if it was like you said, an evolution to a more complete player that is the cause of the drop in points. It'd make sense as 24-26 year old age is about the time when we are trying to make a name for ourselves, and the most tangible way to do that is via points.
Lombardi talked about that with Kopitar. That he was trying to convince him to trade points for a game that led to more wins. It almost seems like defense may come with a sort of on-ice maturity.
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