Movies: Marvel Cinematic Universe Discussion - Part 4

lucaseider

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Ya I'll believe this when you post a reliable source to any of this.


As someone who got into reading comics in the late 80s at 10-11 years old mostly because of the Wolverine character...any changes, race, sex, etc. Would piss me off.
I did say I would wait to be sure. But the Hollywood insiders, the ones who have dropped things that turned out true, are saying some of these things, specifically saying sue storm will lead the team and turning silver surfer female.
 

Pranzo Oltranzista

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If Wolverine was originally drawn as a black guy, no one would be referencing what you just did to explain why it didn't seem right. Do that for Black Panther and everyone would rightfully be raising an eyebrow. [...] Now imagine Hugh Jackman running around as Black Panther and leading Wakanda. We ALL know why that looks and seems silly.
[...]
That's what's being said about a Black Wolverine. A fictional character mind you.
I know, you're not suppose to read this, but I know you will, so here goes... First, please don't say anything about bad faith - you take the crown here. As for the rest, I totally agree with you that it's pretty disappointing to see people having negative reactions to the casting of actors based on their race, sexual identity, gender, height (Tom Cruise as Jack Whatever), etc. That's dumb and sad.

But then again, that's exactly what you propose as the "rightful" reaction to a white actor playing a black character. Silly, right? I understand completely where that feeling is coming from, but that desire to be on the right side of history doesn't always manifest itself into rational positions. I've been commenting on a few counter-performative films recently, that's one pretty counter-performative discourse you have here.

I would have loved to have the redeemed Winter Soldier as the new Black Panther, in exact mirror to the Falcon becoming Captain America. The rocks you're so eager to throw would have shattered that glass house.
 

Osprey

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That's fair, but it's not just that the LIKELIHOOD of him being white or black or whatever is high. It's that their identities and who they fight for/against are wrapped in it. Look, I don't really care much about the "well actually" of it all because there are always exceptions. If Wolverine was originally drawn as a black guy, no one would be referencing what you just did to explain why it didn't seem right. Do that for Black Panther and everyone would rightfully be raising an eyebrow. I mean, does anyone at ALL think about where Wolverine came from when they see Hugh Jackman running around? Is anyone wondering why he doesn't have a Canadian accent? Now imagine Hugh Jackman running around as Black Panther and leading Wakanda. We ALL know why that looks and seems silly.

But, since it's opened, let me peel back the (probably unintentionally) bad faith arguments really being stated in this can of worms by using some other examples.

Hamilton: The initial complaint is couched in "this movie will be bad because 'woke agenda'". Nothing about writing or character motivations or their financial lineage. However, Hamilton is almost universally acknowledged as a fantastic play. It's quite literally a historical retelling of some of the founding of the nation. Were the founding forefathers black and Puerto Rican and Dominican? Was George Washington a black man? Were literally any power brokers at that time Black? Does it make Hamilton any less fantastic because of the fact that the entire cast is? Is the argument that Hamilton isn't good because Thomas Jefferson isn't white and I'm pissed about it a valid one? That's what's being said about a Black Wolverine. A fictional character mind you.

The Danish Girl: Eddie Redmayne played a trans character. If y'all were being ideologically consistent, you'd be upset about this. The "Wolverine should only be played by a white man" argument is the same as "any gay/trans character should be played by a gay/trans" person. However, I'd venture to think that your argument at that time was "actors act" or some variation of that when LGBTQ folks were upset about it. It was about merit and who was talented enough. Not the actual lineage or traits of the character. Further, this was a story that was based on actual people. Shouldn't that carry some weight?

So, you're free to suggest that Black Panther and his identity is just as tied to the color of his skin as Wolverine. I think it's a bit silly, and I'm sure deep down you do too, but whatever. I'd only ask you to maybe do a little introspection and ask yourself why, when minorities take a traditionally white role, you find a way to parse everything to prove why it's wrong or there's an agenda or it will "piss you off", but when a white dude gets a role that a minority (arguably) could/should have, you're freely able to justify it by "it's acting" and you find nothing wrong with it at all.

You don't need to respond to this. I'm honestly not going to read it because I'm not interested in debating this any further. I know that sentence comes off as snarky, but it's absolutely not intended to be. It just serves no purpose and I honestly just get disappointed in seeing people holding these views.
You're suggesting that I made a bad faith argument and then trying to prove it with examples that weren't even part of my argument. Your argument also consists of hypotheticals and strawmen along the lines of "if the character were X, then everyone/no one would Y" and "when X happens, your argument is Y." You're attributing several positions to me and then asking me to "do a little introspection." You want me to question my beliefs (or what you think they are), but seemingly don't want to question your own, since you won't even read my reply. Finally, "these views" that you're disappointed in seeing are what you're imagining and adding to the argument. You're really arguing with yourself more than anything here, which is probably why it feels pointless.
 
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RandV

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I did say I would wait to be sure. But the Hollywood insiders, the ones who have dropped things that turned out true, are saying some of these things, specifically saying sue storm will lead the team and turning silver surfer female.
Could they decide to shake something up? Sure. But it's not just one thing, you threw out a whole grab bag of dubious 'going woke!' claims that makes it really suspect where you're getting these 'rumours'.
 

AtlantaWhaler

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Could they decide to shake something up? Sure. But it's not just one thing, you threw out a whole grab bag of dubious 'going woke!' claims that makes it really suspect where you're getting these 'rumours'.
I'm not a big MCU rumor tracker, but I did see that they're supposedly eyeing that actress who was in the Queen's Gambit to play Silver Surfer. Popped up on my Facebook page for some reason.
 

lucaseider

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Could they decide to shake something up? Sure. But it's not just one thing, you threw out a whole grab bag of dubious 'going woke!' claims that makes it really suspect where you're getting these 'rumours'.
Would any of that surprise you? Honestly, the last few years how many male superheroes have marvel turned into female versions of that hero? Sorry that comic purists don't like it, and it reflects that in marvels ratings and box office almost since the last avengers movie. Did some of those things happen in the comics? Sure, but they didn’t last long and it wasn't all at once.
 

x Tame Impala

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Is it possible in this day and age to make a great Xmen movie considering the troubles of western society wrestling down our new dynamics of race and gender? I’m not entirely sure.

One way or the other people will be upset. If the MCU is doing to do this and make it as or more entertaining than phases 1-3, they’ve got a whole slew of difficulties ahead of them
 

John Price

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beowulf

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I mean it's the comics right, everyone comes back at some point.
 
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Power Man

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I don't have high hopes for Pedro as Richards

It just doesn't seem like the right casting choice
Seems weird to me as well

But that’s how I felt when Ledger was cast for Joker and Affleck for Batman and I ultimately loved both in their respective roles, so let’s wait and see

And as long as they don’t cast that goofy looking, CIA apologist MF’er Krasinski
 

x Tame Impala

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"I think there was some weird soup in the atmosphere for why that movie got slammed so much, and I think not much of it has to do with the actual quality of the movie," he continued."

Isn't that just part of the job? Not everything you do will turn to gold. Pick better scripts. I think a lot of people saw that movie being a stinker from a mile away
 
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blueandgoldguy

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Eternals wasn't a very good movie. Far too many characters and not nearly enough time to flesh them out and gather an interest in them. The movie really didn't fit within the broader MC Universe either.
 

BertCorbeau

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Not too upset to hear the delaying the release of some of the upcoming movies .. Much needed to reset and focus on cleaning up how sloppy the multi-verse saga has been.

I still think it makes sense to recast Kang, stick with that plan, and use the mutant introduction as the next big hype for Secret Wars, where 616 and an adjacent reality battle through an incursion. The end being a "reset" of the MCU as they amalgamate a new reality. Obviously this would also have to sort out Kang.

They could then focus on MCU projects involving the Young Avengers, mutants, and properly building the Fantastic 4 up. I'm glad they're being introduced with their own movie but I'd like to see their role be fairly minimal making them a bigger part of future sagas. This could allow for better story building with Dr Doom and Galactus.
 

HeisenBaez

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I don't have high hopes for Pedro as Richards

Same here. MCU saw DC awkwardly cast Pedro Pascal as Maxwell Lord, i'm sorry as Maxwell Lorenzino and decided to one up that by awkwardly casing Pedro Pascal as Reed Richards. WW 1984 was NOT a good movie. So I don't expect FF will be.

-------------------

Finally watched The Marvels and I thought the movie was ok. But Marvel still does have a villain problem. Other than Loki and Thanos, MCU villains were not good and in most cases were 1 dimensional. Change that, please.

"Attention S.A.B.E.R crew. Stop running and let the Flerkens eat you. You will be fine." Might be the most absurdly funny line in the whole MCU franchise, especially as it was spoken at a time in which the S.A.B.E.R was running around the station panicking.
 
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Primary Assist

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"I think there was some weird soup in the atmosphere for why that movie got slammed so much, and I think not much of it has to do with the actual quality of the movie," he continued."

Isn't that just part of the job? Not everything you do will turn to gold. Pick better scripts. I think a lot of people saw that movie being a stinker from a mile away.
His comment is just a dog whistle, the movie itself was panned and didn't really fit into the mass audience's perception of an MCU movie. This reminds me of when the Billy on the Street guy blamed the moviegoing public for his Bros movie not being a box office darling, when really it just wasn't that type of film.
 

Neutrinos

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Same here. MCU saw DC awkwardly cast Pedro Pascal as Maxwell Lord, i'm sorry as Maxwell Lorenzino and decided to one up that by awkwardly casing Pedro Pascal as Reed Richards. WW 1984 was NOT a good movie. So I don't expect FF will be.
WW1984 may be the worst sequel ever made

Everyone involved in the making of it should have been embarrassed into early retirement
 
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