Movies: Marvel Cinematic Universe Discussion - Part 4

AtlantaWhaler

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That seems like a 'be careful what you wish for' thing. While I agree in exceptional circumstances, such as with Majors here and to a lesser extent Boseman (respect for the deceased and all), I feel like if you just start swapping out actors like they're James Bond or Dr. Who you could run into a whole different set of problems.

Probably fine for to do for your dedicated comic book fan, but for the regular movie audience that's made the whole MCU experience so successful to this point? They already have a hard time keeping up with all the interconnecting storylines and such, this would only makes it worse. It also keeps the roster size in check as there's unlike comic books there's only so many characters you can bring into the fold at a time for the big screen.
Well, if Disney/Marvel wants to ride this cash machine for as long as they can, they're going to have to pull a James Bond. Can't imagine many of the current lineup (Helmsworth, Ruffalo, Chedle, Renner) will stick around too much longer. There's talk of Holland moving on from Spiderman.

Nobody seemed to care with all the Spidermen cast as well as a couple different Hulks before Ruffalo. I think Chedle had a role changed too.
 

StreetHawk

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Well, if Disney/Marvel wants to ride this cash machine for as long as they can, they're going to have to pull a James Bond. Can't imagine many of the current lineup (Helmsworth, Ruffalo, Chedle, Renner) will stick around too much longer. There's talk of Holland moving on from Spiderman.

Nobody seemed to care with all the Spidermen cast as well as a couple different Hulks before Ruffalo. I think Chedle had a role changed too.
They have the rights to Xmen, so they can stop the Avengers and move into Mutants. But, the entire writing team needs a redo. Quality over quantity, but seems like all talk and no action from Iger and Kennedy.
 
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lucaseider

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They have the rights to Xmen, so they can stop the Avengers and move into Mutants. But, the entire writing team needs a redo. Quality over quantity, but seems like all talk and no action from Iger and Kennedy.
I mean, I'll wait to see for sure, but it sounds like iger is doubling down with all these rumors. From him interfering with deadpool 3, making sue storm run fantastic four, xmen being almost all women and race swapping wolverine. It's like he wants to keep losing money. Just make some good content without shoving your f***ing agendas down our throat.
 

beowulf

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So Marvel is moving forward with the more "adult" rated R or MA stuff under the spotlight branding. They would still be part of the MCU but not so much for kids. The first is Echo limited series and others would be Blade, Deadpool 3, Midnight Sons, etc.

This would include a lot of the mystical or supernatural characters.

Midnight Sons would be led by Blade and Wong
Scarlett Witch
Moonknight
Werewolf by Night

They would go up against either Lilith or Mephisto or both.

Also in this group somewhere would be Ghost Rider and Black Knight. Be interesting to see how mature these get as their own little pocket of the MCU.
 

Pranzo Oltranzista

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So Marvel is moving forward with the more "adult" rated R or MA stuff under the spotlight branding. They would still be part of the MCU but not so much for kids. The first is Echo limited series and others would be Blade, Deadpool 3, Midnight Sons, etc.

This would include a lot of the mystical or supernatural characters.

Midnight Sons would be led by Blade and Wong
Scarlett Witch
Moonknight
Werewolf by Night

They would go up against either Lilith or Mephisto or both.

Also in this group somewhere would be Ghost Rider and Black Knight. Be interesting to see how mature these get as their own little pocket of the MCU.
No Punisher?
 

barriers

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Jon Bernthal is rumoured to be in the new Daredevil series. I don't think it's been confirmed but I could be wrong
 

Pranzo Oltranzista

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I am thinking he might be more part of the Daredevil world maybe? This above was just what a picked up from a few videos from insiders into the Marvel stuff.
I read that King Pin was the big bad of the Spotlight stuff (mind you, it was some click bait crap on FB), so Punisher would have to be part of it. Let's just hope they don't f*** it up, the Netflix series were great.
 

beowulf

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I read that King Pin was the big bad of the Spotlight stuff (mind you, it was some click bait crap on FB), so Punisher would have to be part of it. Let's just hope they don't f*** it up, the Netflix series were great.
YA now I am finding stuff that does not contradict but further explains that the Spothlight stuff will also be movies or shows that right now are not directly tied to the current MCU overarching plot leading to Avengers 5 and 6 etc. I guess some stuff is confirmed other stuff is still no 100%.

From Echo director

“It’s kind of like the comics, in that there are certain stories that tie into the continuity and really play into the overall narrative, and there’s other ones that are more stand-alone and are character-driven like Echo is,” Winderbaum said in an interview with ComicBook.com.


He added, “Really, what the Spotlight branding represents is an opportunity for people who are more casual fans who might not know what happened in the last Avengers movie to show up and kind of enjoy it on its own terms.”
 

SmytheKing

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I mean, I'll wait to see for sure, but it sounds like iger is doubling down with all these rumors. From him interfering with deadpool 3, making sue storm run fantastic four, xmen being almost all women and race swapping wolverine. It's like he wants to keep losing money. Just make some good content without shoving your f***ing agendas down our throat.
I'm curious what agenda is being pushed by a casting choice and how that translates into bad content.

It's super odd how, even with the millions of poorly written and executed movies that have been done in history, the only time casting seems to be the reason for this is when it's a minority who is in the lead role. Go figure.
 

beowulf

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I mean, I'll wait to see for sure, but it sounds like iger is doubling down with all these rumors. From him interfering with deadpool 3, making sue storm run fantastic four, xmen being almost all women and race swapping wolverine. It's like he wants to keep losing money. Just make some good content without shoving your f***ing agendas down our throat.
Ya I'll believe this when you post a reliable source to any of this.

I'm curious what agenda is being pushed by a casting choice and how that translates into bad content.

It's super odd how, even with the millions of poorly written and executed movies that have been done in history, the only time casting seems to be the reason for this is when it's a minority who is in the lead role. Go figure.
As someone who got into reading comics in the late 80s at 10-11 years old mostly because of the Wolverine character...any changes, race, sex, etc. Would piss me off.
 
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SmytheKing

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Ya I'll believe this when you post a reliable source to any of this.


As someone who got into reading comics in the late 80s at 10-11 years old mostly because of the Wolverine character...any changes, race, sex, etc. Would piss me off.
Sex I can almost understand...but race? Why? Who cares? Isn't it about the best actor? If they cast Idris Elba as Wolverine (I know he's like 4ft tall in the comics but he never has been in the movies), that would piss you off? Rahul Kohli? Ram Charan? I don't see why any of those dudes wouldn't be excellent choices in that role.

The characters identity and motivations have nothing to do with his skin color so it's lost on me why it makes a difference.
 

beowulf

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Sex I can almost understand...but race? Why? Who cares? Isn't it about the best actor? If they cast Idris Elba as Wolverine (I know he's like 4ft tall in the comics but he never has been in the movies), that would piss you off? Rahul Kohli? Ram Charan? I don't see why any of those dudes wouldn't be excellent choices in that role.

The characters identity and motivations have nothing to do with his skin color so it's lost on me why it makes a difference.
Because that is not how the character has been for the last 40+ years. None of those people are Wolverine and it would also not work with his backstory or where is from and when he is from. Wolverine is a white dude from a wealthy Canadian family in the mid-19th century. Casting him as South Asian or Black etc would not work, period. It's just like a character, in the MCU or other, is supposed to be Asian I would not agree with it being recast as a white person.
 
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SmytheKing

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Because that is not how the character has been for the last 40+ years. None of those people are Wolverine and it would also not work with his backstory or where is from and when he is from. Wolverine is a white dude from a wealthy Canadian family in the mid-19th century. Casting him as South Asian or Black etc would not work, period. It's just like a character, in the MCU or other, is supposed to be Asian I would not agree with it being recast as a white person.
I've heard that sort of thing before but I mean, he's not a white dude from Canada. He's just from Canada. He was drawn a certain color in the comics, but he's not Wolverine because he's white.

Further, regarding casting other races of characters as white, typically those characters aren't just "Asian" or "Black", their culture/upbringing/character has attachments to those groups. Black Panther, for example, is the leader of an African tribe. Luke Cage is a guy who is fighting out of Harlem and was fighting racist cops. Their identity is wrapped in the color of their skin.

At the end of the day, you do you on this. I know I'm not going to change your mind, I just don't understand it personally. I get thinking so and so is the wrong choice for a role (like I thought about Heath Ledger for the Joker and Adam Driver as Kylo Ren), but because the color of their skin? Eh, that's not something I care much about.
 
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lucaseider

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I'm curious what agenda is being pushed by a casting choice and how that translates into bad content.

It's super odd how, even with the millions of poorly written and executed movies that have been done in history, the only time casting seems to be the reason for this is when it's a minority who is in the lead role. Go figure.
Ya, sorry, meant gender, not race. That said we have tons of movies the last few years swap out the white guy for literally anybody else. If your for the whole woke agenda, then there isn't much to discuss just disagree I guess.
 

lucaseider

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I've heard that sort of thing before but I mean, he's not a white dude from Canada. He's just from Canada. He was drawn a certain color in the comics, but he's not Wolverine because he's white.

Further, regarding casting other races of characters as white, typically those characters aren't just "Asian" or "Black", their culture/upbringing/character has attachments to those groups. Black Panther, for example, is the leader of an African tribe. Luke Cage is a guy who is fighting out of Harlem and was fighting racist cops. Their identity is wrapped in the color of their skin.

At the end of the day, you do you on this. I know I'm not going to change your mind, I just don't understand it personally. I get thinking so and so is the wrong choice for a role (like I thought about Heath Ledger for the Joker and Adam Driver as Kylo Ren), but because the color of their skin? Eh, that's not something I care much about.
He literally is a white dude from Canada, and has been in the comics and movies for almost 50 years. Anybody who collects comics (well most) would be upset. I would feel the same way if they made Shang chi middle eastern or black panther white.
 

SmytheKing

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Ya, sorry, meant gender, not race. That said we have tons of movies the last few years swap out the white guy for literally anybody else. If your for the whole woke agenda, then there isn't much to discuss just disagree I guess.
Ah you said "woke agenda". Got it. Guess we're done here.

He literally is a white dude from Canada, and has been in the comics and movies for almost 50 years. Anybody who collects comics (well most) would be upset. I would feel the same way if they made Shang chi middle eastern or black panther white.
Yes. Those two characters just happen to be Asian and Black. Nothing about their characters would shape that. Good comparison.
 
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lucaseider

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Ah you said "woke agenda". Got it. Guess we're done here.


Yes. Those two characters just happen to be Asian and Black. Nothing about their characters would shape that. Good comparison.
Ya, we are done if your woke. Obviously you are because they are aloud to be Black and Asian, but Logan isn't white. That's woke for ya, can't change black or Asian but we will change the whites.
 

beowulf

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I've heard that sort of thing before but I mean, he's not a white dude from Canada. He's just from Canada. He was drawn a certain color in the comics, but he's not Wolverine because he's white.

Further, regarding casting other races of characters as white, typically those characters aren't just "Asian" or "Black", their culture/upbringing/character has attachments to those groups. Black Panther, for example, is the leader of an African tribe. Luke Cage is a guy who is fighting out of Harlem and was fighting racist cops. Their identity is wrapped in the color of their skin.

At the end of the day, you do you on this. I know I'm not going to change your mind, I just don't understand it personally. I get thinking so and so is the wrong choice for a role (like I thought about Heath Ledger for the Joker and Adam Driver as Kylo Ren), but because the color of their skin? Eh, that's not something I care much about.
Actually yes he is the white guy from Canada. He was drawn that color because of the when in time he comes from, who he is. Changing that changes the character completely. He is from the mid-19th century Canada, a time when it was estimate that the "colored" population of Upper Canada was around 30,000 and even less in a place like Alberta.

Also as I agree that black kids identify and love Black Panther, I as a white Canadian kid identified and loved Wolverine. So changing his race would be terrible in my point of view. You say black panther or luke cage have identities wrapped in the color of their skin...so why does Wolverine not have the same thing? Again he comes from a upper class white family in mid-1800 Canada...that is WHO he is.
 

RandV

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I think you people are missing the point, the real important part is that "Wolverine" comes from "Canada". I would be very upset if they made Wolverine from like France or something.

That said, I have perfect casting!

79f63afa-a06b-47df-af6a-a3bec2e9c7c1.jpg

Not just that actor, but literally that character and that movie being the start of the story!
 

Pranzo Oltranzista

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I've heard that sort of thing before but I mean, he's not a white dude from Canada. He's just from Canada. He was drawn a certain color in the comics, but he's not Wolverine because he's white.

Further, regarding casting other races of characters as white, typically those characters aren't just "Asian" or "Black", their culture/upbringing/character has attachments to those groups. Black Panther, for example, is the leader of an African tribe. Luke Cage is a guy who is fighting out of Harlem and was fighting racist cops. Their identity is wrapped in the color of their skin.

At the end of the day, you do you on this. I know I'm not going to change your mind, I just don't understand it personally. I get thinking so and so is the wrong choice for a role (like I thought about Heath Ledger for the Joker and Adam Driver as Kylo Ren), but because the color of their skin? Eh, that's not something I care much about.
As much as I don't give a shit about what color they cast the next Wolverine, this is just being dishonest. I won't re-iterate what others have said, but the original character is clearly white, and was constructed using what his origin and background implies, just as much as Luke Cage was (well, probably not because there's some level of racist caricature in Cage's character). The current times make it "ok" to flush that and make him - or Snow White - black, because there's always been a huge imbalance in representation of minorities on screen and on stage, etc. - and now are reparation times, whatever that means. It still would be exactly the same thing as rewriting Black Panther or Luke Cage as white characters (and why wouldn't a little white boy abandoned in Harlem become a hero for his neighborhood, tell me?), but right now, that would be seen as morally questionable, or insensitive.

Again, don't give a shit. They can cast a crippled midget, or a real wolverine, a woman or a tribe person who's never seen civilization, I really don't think "art" (in a very very large understanding - maybe I should say "fiction") is the right place to take your fight for moral higher grounds. If in the end, seeing more black people on screen can help a few racist f***tards getting their heads out of their asses, I don't mind black James Bond, black John F. Kennedy and black Jason Voorhees. Let's just be honest as why and what they are.
 

Osprey

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I've heard that sort of thing before but I mean, he's not a white dude from Canada. He's just from Canada. He was drawn a certain color in the comics, but he's not Wolverine because he's white.

Further, regarding casting other races of characters as white, typically those characters aren't just "Asian" or "Black", their culture/upbringing/character has attachments to those groups. Black Panther, for example, is the leader of an African tribe. Luke Cage is a guy who is fighting out of Harlem and was fighting racist cops. Their identity is wrapped in the color of their skin.
From what I'm reading, Wolverine was raised in a wealthy 19th century Canadian family and served in WWI, WWII and the CIA before being handpicked and made into a superhuman by the Canadian Defense Ministry, all before 1970. That suggests to me that he's white, just as being the leader of an African nation or a racism fighter from Harlem suggests that the other characters are black. There were some blacks who were wealthy in the 19th century, fought in the world wars and were recruited by high level government agencies, but there have also been white African leaders and white people in Harlem who hate racism. My point is that there seems to be as much reason to view Wolverine as white as there is to view Black Panther and Luke Cage as black. I think that it also makes a difference when we're talking about a character whose backstory includes the first half of the 20th century. If he were black, his experiences and, ultimately, his identity would likely be different.
 
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SmytheKing

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From what I'm reading, Wolverine was raised in a wealthy 19th century Canadian family and served in WWI, WWII and the CIA before being handpicked and made into a superhuman by the Canadian Defense Ministry, all before 1970. That suggests to me that he's white, just as being the leader of an African nation or a racism fighter from Harlem suggests that the other characters are black. There were some blacks who were wealthy in the 19th century, fought in the world wars and were recruited by high level government agencies, but there have also been white African leaders and white people in Harlem who hate racism. My point is that there seems to be as much reason to view Wolverine as white as there is to view Black Panther and Luke Cage as black. I think that it also makes a difference when we're talking about a character whose backstory includes the first half of the 20th century. If he were black, his experiences and, ultimately, his identity would likely be different.
That's fair, but it's not just that the LIKELIHOOD of him being white or black or whatever is high. It's that their identities and who they fight for/against are wrapped in it. Look, I don't really care much about the "well actually" of it all because there are always exceptions. If Wolverine was originally drawn as a black guy, no one would be referencing what you just did to explain why it didn't seem right. Do that for Black Panther and everyone would rightfully be raising an eyebrow. I mean, does anyone at ALL think about where Wolverine came from when they see Hugh Jackman running around? Is anyone wondering why he doesn't have a Canadian accent? Now imagine Hugh Jackman running around as Black Panther and leading Wakanda. We ALL know why that looks and seems silly.

But, since it's opened, let me peel back the (probably unintentionally) bad faith arguments really being stated in this can of worms by using some other examples.

Hamilton: The initial complaint is couched in "this movie will be bad because 'woke agenda'". Nothing about writing or character motivations or their financial lineage. However, Hamilton is almost universally acknowledged as a fantastic play. It's quite literally a historical retelling of some of the founding of the nation. Were the founding forefathers black and Puerto Rican and Dominican? Was George Washington a black man? Were literally any power brokers at that time Black? Does it make Hamilton any less fantastic because of the fact that the entire cast is? Is the argument that Hamilton isn't good because Thomas Jefferson isn't white and I'm pissed about it a valid one? That's what's being said about a Black Wolverine. A fictional character mind you.

The Danish Girl: Eddie Redmayne played a trans character. If y'all were being ideologically consistent, you'd be upset about this. The "Wolverine should only be played by a white man" argument is the same as "any gay/trans character should be played by a gay/trans" person. However, I'd venture to think that your argument at that time was "actors act" or some variation of that when LGBTQ folks were upset about it. It was about merit and who was talented enough. Not the actual lineage or traits of the character. Further, this was a story that was based on actual people. Shouldn't that carry some weight?

So, you're free to suggest that Black Panther and his identity is just as tied to the color of his skin as Wolverine. I think it's a bit silly, and I'm sure deep down you do too, but whatever. I'd only ask you to maybe do a little introspection and ask yourself why, when minorities take a traditionally white role, you find a way to parse everything to prove why it's wrong or there's an agenda or it will "piss you off", but when a white dude gets a role that a minority (arguably) could/should have, you're freely able to justify it by "it's acting" and you find nothing wrong with it at all.

You don't need to respond to this. I'm honestly not going to read it because I'm not interested in debating this any further. I know that sentence comes off as snarky, but it's absolutely not intended to be. It just serves no purpose and I honestly just get disappointed in seeing people holding these views.
 

RandV

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Also realistically, in the unlikely event that they were to 'diversify' wolverine then the obvious casting here would be someone indigenous. At this point the MCU roster is well represented, but a native American they don't have and it could tie in well to his 1800's 'Canadian' identity.
 

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