Movies: Marvel Cinematic Universe Discussion - Part 4

PeteWorrell

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Aug 31, 2006
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Flooding the market with Marvel Disney+ productions and have them be necessary to understand the plot of certain movies, has been to me one of their biggest mistakes. It was great when you could just watch a Marvel movie and understand most of what was happening without having to watch content behind a paywall.

Case in point being The Marvels movie having a review embargo until release and being expected to flop. No one watched Ms. Marvel and you also need to have watched WandaVision to understand the origins of two of the three main characters. That is incredibly stupid and whoever decided this was a good idea should be up for the chopping block.
 
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Pranzo Oltranzista

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Surprised that nobody posted the trailer for Echo. Looks closer to the Netflix series, which is a very good thing. Is it me or did Echo get a little chubby since Hawkeye? :skeptic:


Edit - just saw the thread about it, nevermind
 
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John Price

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The Marvels had some pretty significant moves forward for the MCU which I will muse about.

Be interesting to see how they work the X Men or the new Avengers with Ms Marvel and Female Hawkeye in. Also with the Fantastic Four rumored to be joining in soon (can't wait for that Reed Richards cameo)

That said yeah you can't deny that no CA and no Iron Man mean the MCU has taken a bit of a hit. It's still watchable but the lack of those two does hurt. I am again interested to see how they set up the future, because again if Wolverine (Hugh Jackman), Spider Man, Fantastic Four and all the others team up against Kang it could get pretty spicy

Flooding the market with Marvel Disney+ productions and have them be necessary to understand the plot of certain movies, has been to me one of their biggest mistakes. It was great when you could just watch a Marvel movie and understand most of what was happening without having to watch content behind a paywall.

Case in point being The Marvels movie having a review embargo until release and being expected to flop. No one watched Ms. Marvel and you also need to have watched WandaVision to understand the origins of two of the three main characters. That is incredibly stupid and whoever decided this was a good idea should be up for the chopping block.
As someone who did not watch Ms Marvel but watched The Marvels I wasn't lost at all. It became very clear throughout the movie she was still living at home with a family who played a prominent role in the film.

Also, Alamo took the liberty of recapping them all beforehand so having never seen Ms Marvel I was basically given a brief summary. I ain't watching any more D+ shows, but yes, they do play a factor in the movies, although much of their backstory isn't needed.
For instance Female Hawkeye shows up at the end of Marvels and I watched like half of Hawkeye
 

blueandgoldguy

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We are definitely past peak Marvel in terms of movie grosses. That took place between 2016 - 2019. Recent movies like Dr. Strange, Thor and Black Panther started strong at the box office started off strong at the box office but petered out rather quickly with multipliers that were not particularly impressive. Significant blame can be given to the mediocre lazy scripts and some questionable decisions made for these movies (ie. having Suri become the Black Panther).

By my count, there will be 9 superhero movies released in theatres this year with at least 4 of those being Marvel by my count...if we include the animated Spiderman movie. That doesn't include all the Marvel tv series that will be on Disney Plus this year either. Out of the 9, I suspect a couple will bomb, a few will underperform/break-even and a few will be hits. Right now, the surest thing to become a hit in my mind is Guardians 3 and the new animated Spiderman movie. Likely duds will probably be stuff like Kraven and Blue Beetle.
I was partially right. Guardians 3 and the new animated Spiderman movie were the only hits. But I severely underestimated the bombs - Ant-Man, Shazam 2, The Flash, Blue Beetle and The Marvels are all bombs....Ant-Man a bit of a lesser bomb, but a bomb nonetheless. Kraven was moved to next year so we will see what happens there.

Aquaman may very well be another dud at Christmas.
 

beowulf

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I was partially right. Guardians 3 and the new animated Spiderman movie were the only hits. But I severely underestimated the bombs - Ant-Man, Shazam 2, The Flash, Blue Beetle and The Marvels are all bombs....Ant-Man a bit of a lesser bomb, but a bomb nonetheless. Kraven was moved to next year so we will see what happens there.

Aquaman may very well be another dud at Christmas.
Funny when $467M at the box office is a bomb but alas with the precedents set by past MCU films it did underperform for sure.
 

blueandgoldguy

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Funny when $467M at the box office is a bomb but alas with the precedents set by past MCU films it did underperform for sure.
When it makes nearly $100 million less than the next lowest grossing Ant Man movie from 8 years prior (so probably another $50 million less when accounting for inflation) and movie costs $200 - $250 million with another $100 plus million in marketing, thus resulting in a loss of nearly $100 million, then yes, it is a bomb regardless of what precedents were set in the past.

Funny that earth still keeps humming along with no mention in any marvel movies of the giant being that was partially birthed out of its core and sits like a statue in the ocean.:laugh:

Business as usual I guess....
 
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NyQuil

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Funny that earth still keeps humming along with no mention in any marvel movies of the giant being that was partially birthed out of its core and sits like a statue in the ocean.:laugh:

Business as usual I guess....

I think Kevin Feige has essentially lost tight control of the MCU.

The level of detail and care that went into crafting the MCU products is gone.

It's like comparing the Hobbit films with the Lord of the Rings.

You could tell how much more rushed they were (and in defence, Jackson wanted to keep using a rapidly aging cast for continuity, but it showed).
 

beowulf

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I think Kevin Feige has essentially lost tight control of the MCU.

The level of detail and care that went into crafting the MCU products is gone.

It's like comparing the Hobbit films with the Lord of the Rings.

You could tell how much more rushed they were (and in defence, Jackson wanted to keep using a rapidly aging cast for continuity, but it showed).
He has mentioned that they will become tighter in their control of the MCU going forwards so we shall see how that plays out.

For the Hobbit trilogy vs the LotR I think it in part also came down to Jackson not having planned to direct them originally as it was supposed to be Guillermo Tel Toro I believe and he backed out after a number of production delays messed with his schedule and he had other projects planned. So I am not sure if Jackson was as engrossed and focused to directing them.
 

KallioWeHardlyKnewYe

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My theory isn't a loss of control ... it's that there is TOO MUCH control. They're so slavishly committed to connections and continuity that it constrains everything they touch because it now all has to serve a master plan. Movies are overstuffed because you need 2-3 unnecessary characters in one story to seed they next. They blurred personalities between characters too ... now every single character is tossing quips off all the time.

Folks seem to forget that the MCU's origins were relatively loosey goosey. Thanos was dropped in originally as a lark, basically, not because they were building to him from day 1. Some of those early movies are a bit rough too, but they were smart enough to pick and choose what was working and THEN mold something stronger from it.

By phase 4 they're aggressively trying to engineer everything. No freedom. No room for discovery. Too much reading their own press clippings and thinking they constructed everything from whole cloth, when they really had a lot of luck too. Classic hubris.

I want them to loosen up. Let creators create and see what happens.
 
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Pranzo Oltranzista

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My theory isn't a loss of control ... it's that there is TOO MUCH control. They're so slavishly committed to connections and continuity that it constrains everything they touch because it now all has to serve a master plan. Movies are overstuffed because you need 2-3 unnecessary characters in one story to seed they next. They blurred personalities between characters too ... now every single character is tossing quips off all the time.

Folks seem to forget that the MCU's origins were relatively loosey goosey. Thanos was dropped in originally as a lark, basically, not because they were building to him from day 1. Some of those early movies are a bit rough too, but they were smart enough to pick and choose what was working and THEN mold something stronger from it.

By phase 4 they're aggressively trying to engineer everything. No freedom. No room for discovery. Too much reading their own press clippings and thinking they constructed everything from whole cloth, when they really had a lot of luck too. Classic hubris.

I want them to loosen up. Let creators create and see what happens.
Wouldn't the risk be that it all look like the DC "no plan" way? Anyway, don't care at all about any of this. People are happy that the film flops? Ok, at least someone's happy. I'd prefer it to be good, because I'll eventually watch it anyway, but I don't mind crap either.
I never thought I'd see the time where nerds would want less of their stuff. Comics were never a problem, nobody read the whole thing and everybody had fun. Now it's like "stop making content, it's too much for ME", or "this one is not for ME, it's all going to shit now".
 

beowulf

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Wouldn't the risk be that it all look like the DC "no plan" way? Anyway, don't care at all about any of this. People are happy that the film flops? Ok, at least someone's happy. I'd prefer it to be good, because I'll eventually watch it anyway, but I don't mind crap either.
I never thought I'd see the time where nerds would want less of their stuff. Comics were never a problem, nobody read the whole thing and everybody had fun. Now it's like "stop making content, it's too much for ME", or "this one is not for ME, it's all going to shit now".
For me, as someone that read these comics a lot as a kid and still has many of them in boxes all nicely stored, seeing the characters in live action is great. Sure I prefer the movie be a good one, and many MCU ones have been, I can still find something I like/enjoy in all of them because of my history of reading Marvel comics and watching the old X-Men animated show etc. This is likely why at times I am not as critical of them as some are.
 
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PeteWorrell

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My theory isn't a loss of control ... it's that there is TOO MUCH control. They're so slavishly committed to connections and continuity that it constrains everything they touch because it now all has to serve a master plan. Movies are overstuffed because you need 2-3 unnecessary characters in one story to seed they next. They blurred personalities between characters too ... now every single character is tossing quips off all the time.

Folks seem to forget that the MCU's origins were relatively loosey goosey. Thanos was dropped in originally as a lark, basically, not because they were building to him from day 1. Some of those early movies are a bit rough too, but they were smart enough to pick and choose what was working and THEN mold something stronger from it.

By phase 4 they're aggressively trying to engineer everything. No freedom. No room for discovery. Too much reading their own press clippings and thinking they constructed everything from whole cloth, when they really had a lot of luck too. Classic hubris.

I want them to loosen up. Let creators create and see what happens.
That is a good point about too much control. The public loved the Guardians of the Galaxy because of James Gunn's touch. The third movie is one of a couple of superheroes movies that did not bomb this year. I am pretty sure that's because people actually cared about those characters unlike all the recent introductions.
 

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My theory isn't a loss of control ... it's that there is TOO MUCH control. They're so slavishly committed to connections and continuity that it constrains everything they touch because it now all has to serve a master plan. Movies are overstuffed because you need 2-3 unnecessary characters in one story to seed they next. They blurred personalities between characters too ... now every single character is tossing quips off all the time.

Folks seem to forget that the MCU's origins were relatively loosey goosey. Thanos was dropped in originally as a lark, basically, not because they were building to him from day 1. Some of those early movies are a bit rough too, but they were smart enough to pick and choose what was working and THEN mold something stronger from it.

By phase 4 they're aggressively trying to engineer everything. No freedom. No room for discovery. Too much reading their own press clippings and thinking they constructed everything from whole cloth, when they really had a lot of luck too. Classic hubris.

I want them to loosen up. Let creators create and see what happens.
Bolded is definitely important in a few ways.


I think people absolutely have forgotten that the early MCU stuff was fairly mediocre as well quite frankly. Like the first couple of Thors, the first Captain America, a couple of the Iron Mans. None of those were great movies, fairly average I would say(And I would argue about on par with a lot of what we have gotten recently in the MCU but people are just way more critical of "average" from the MCU these days because of some of the great things they have done).


But it was the little teasers of continuity that helped build the world and then ultimately the first Avengers movie was an absolute banger that fully set things in motion going forward.


I think I can see the argument of there being too much emphasis of connectivity right now in some ways. Perhaps they need to go back to doing more localized stories with small teasers of the bigger world.


That said, I think what's missing right now in the MCU is that Avengers 1 type of movie. It doesn't even necessarily need to be Kang as the big bad or related to that next major villain. But something that basically shows you all of the nee characters we have together and how the dynamic between them is expected to be moving forward.


Then you can have them go off and deal with their own "adventures" in separate movies that don't tie into the big story as much, and continue dropping small connectivity teasers throughout.

And at the same time, maybe the problem at this point is that things have just bloated out of control. In that first Avengers movie you had Cap, Iron Man, Thor as the three main leads(Who had their own movies and not counting the Incredible Hulk her), with Hulk, Hawkeye, and Black Widow as the complimentary pieces and Nick Fury bringing them all together. As far as I can remember that was it at that point I think.


Now if you were to try and do a new Avengers film that tied in characters that have had movies/series' around them, you're looking at along with Thor, Hulk, and maybe Hawkeye who are still around, just characters on Earth you've also got: Doctor Strange, Wong, Ant-Man, The Wasp, Spider-Man, Shang Chi, Captain Marvel, Black Panther, Bucky, Falcon/New Captain America, all of the Eternals still, Kate Bishop, Mrs Marvel, She-Hulk, Moon Knight.... And then characters like Valkyrie and whoever else is in "New Asgard" at this point...


It's just a gigantic list of superheros with a lot of them not being particularly big names either.
 

Do Make Say Think

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How is Jussi? Is he handling the MCU crashing and burning ok?

Having to cater to Disney+ and create shows on top of movies may very well be death blow. Endless mediocrity.

Who cares about the MCU anymore haha.
 
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KallioWeHardlyKnewYe

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Bolded is definitely important in a few ways.


I think people absolutely have forgotten that the early MCU stuff was fairly mediocre as well quite frankly. Like the first couple of Thors, the first Captain America, a couple of the Iron Mans. None of those were great movies, fairly average I would say(And I would argue about on par with a lot of what we have gotten recently in the MCU but people are just way more critical of "average" from the MCU these days because of some of the great things they have done).


But it was the little teasers of continuity that helped build the world and then ultimately the first Avengers movie was an absolute banger that fully set things in motion going forward.


I think I can see the argument of there being too much emphasis of connectivity right now in some ways. Perhaps they need to go back to doing more localized stories with small teasers of the bigger world.


That said, I think what's missing right now in the MCU is that Avengers 1 type of movie. It doesn't even necessarily need to be Kang as the big bad or related to that next major villain. But something that basically shows you all of the nee characters we have together and how the dynamic between them is expected to be moving forward.


Then you can have them go off and deal with their own "adventures" in separate movies that don't tie into the big story as much, and continue dropping small connectivity teasers throughout.

And at the same time, maybe the problem at this point is that things have just bloated out of control. In that first Avengers movie you had Cap, Iron Man, Thor as the three main leads(Who had their own movies and not counting the Incredible Hulk her), with Hulk, Hawkeye, and Black Widow as the complimentary pieces and Nick Fury bringing them all together. As far as I can remember that was it at that point I think.


Now if you were to try and do a new Avengers film that tied in characters that have had movies/series' around them, you're looking at along with Thor, Hulk, and maybe Hawkeye who are still around, just characters on Earth you've also got: Doctor Strange, Wong, Ant-Man, The Wasp, Spider-Man, Shang Chi, Captain Marvel, Black Panther, Bucky, Falcon/New Captain America, all of the Eternals still, Kate Bishop, Mrs Marvel, She-Hulk, Moon Knight.... And then characters like Valkyrie and whoever else is in "New Asgard" at this point...


It's just a gigantic list of superheros with a lot of them not being particularly big names either.

They kinda biffed a second Avengers team too because of how they established that new wave of characters. Personality and role wise, the most likely members are all basically degrees of Tony Stark and Cap. Dr. Strange is Tony. Spider-Man is Tony. Captain Marvel is sorta Cap. Falcon is now literally Cap. Obviously a real world tragedy impacted Chadwick Boseman's Black Panther but he's basically Cap. Not a very compelling team.
 

x Tame Impala

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The stakes felt high in Avengers 1, the stakes were at their highest in IW/Endgame. Simply put I don’t think these new movies are capable of matching those stakes ever again.

Abandon the concatenations, start from scratch with awesome solo movies and see what sticks from there.

Edit: just watched the What If 2 trailer and it looks fantastic. Disney would never, but if they leaned into it, a heavier animated approach to their content could do wonders IMHO
 
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Do Make Say Think

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Lot's of us do.
I struggle to understand.

I mean if you like what they have been putting out since Endgame (and even that one was very meh but that is because Infinity War was so good) then that's awesome, they are making stuff you like.

The execs hijacking the entire creative process has really harmed the product AFAIC, all the boring D+ stuff has not only diluted the brand, it has turned away a lot of people who feel like keeping up with things is busywork.

I know people don't have to watch everything but a lot of people feel like they should. This would have been easy to see coming for creatives but the execs just want more content because content=revenue in their minds.

Also the problem is that the brand is now seriously damaged: things have been trending downwards for a while and we are now near rock bottom considering how expensive to make these movies and shows are. They are going to need a miracle or a lot of time to get things back on track and I'm not sure they realistically can: who cares about Wonder Man? Kang, so far, is a big flop (and might have to be recast) and there is no core group that people like anymore (so much that there is talk they want to bring back Downey Jr. and Evans?).
 
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beowulf

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I struggle to understand.

I mean if you like what they have been putting out since Endgame (and even that one was very meh but that is because Infinity War was so good) then that's awesome, they are making stuff you like.

The execs hijacking the entire creative process has really harmed the product AFAIC, all the boring D+ stuff has not only diluted the brand, it has turned away a lot of people who feel like keeping up with things is busywork.

I know people don't have to watch everything but a lot of people feel like they should.

Also the problem is that the brand is now seriously damaged: things have been trending downwards for a while and we are now near rock bottom. They are going to need a miracle or a lot of time to get things back on track and I'm not sure they realistically can: who cares about Wonder Man? Kang, so far, is a big flop (and might have to be recast) and there is no core group that people like anymore (so much that there is talk they want to bring back Downey Jr. and Evans?).
I am not saying I love everything that has come out in the last couple of years there are more that I feel meh about than I love. That being said, as I wrote above it for me it has to do with being a kid in the late 80s and early 90s reading these comics as an 11 year old until my late teens. Seeing these characters on screen will always be something I enjoy to some extent.

I can only hope they get back to the formula that worked before and focus on quality over quantity as Disney president said recently. They seem to have recognized their mistake with many of those which they tried to produce as if a movie and not a TV show. They didn't have showrunners for any of them I believe which is something they are correcting.
 

Do Make Say Think

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I am not saying I love everything that has come out in the last couple of years there are more that I feel meh about than I love. That being said, as I wrote above it for me it has to do with being a kid in the late 80s and early 90s reading these comics as an 11 year old until my late teens. Seeing these characters on screen will always be something I enjoy to some extent.

I can only hope they get back to the formula that worked before and focus on quality over quantity as Disney president said recently. They seem to have recognized their mistake with many of those which they tried to produce as if a movie and not a TV show. They didn't have showrunners for any of them I believe which is something they are correcting.
I'm not sure there ever was a formula.

They made movies about superheroes from 2008 to 2012 and kept the door open to making more: the first Avenger movie tied up everything that had been set up, the MCU could have ended there because they made it so that it could be (Thanos post credits was keeping the door open).

The Infinity Stones saga was a huge hit so then Disney behaved like there was a formula but what they did was "set things up and go from there" not "lets plan everything from the start every 10 years".

This isn't super hero fatigue, it is huge brand fatigue.
 

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