Marty St. Louis

[Callagraves]

We're getting way too close to internet tough guy territory here. It's awkward.

Anyways, it's nice to see MSL begin to play like...well... Martin St. Louis. He's not just scoring, he's winning 1 on 1's, he's not falling down as much, and he's not skating around like he just lost his puppy. I guess the intensity of the playoffs kinda sparked him.

 

[vstk]

I tend to disagree with the view that the Rangers are bad, historically, at drafting in the first round.

You make a solid point, and in whole, I don't disagree with you that much. That being said, Rangers have picked one guy from that list who I value over MSL and that's Leetch. The point, which has been said here many times, is that you really don't know what becomes of that 1st round pick (or any pick in that regard) but you knew exactly what you were getting when you got MSL.

 

[Swept In Seven]

He has been tearing it up so far this postseason, doing exactly what we expect him to do. A cup run hinges on his ability to put points up, he is clearly our best offensive option.

 

[pld459666]

You'd rather have Lucic than Gretzky or Sakic? You're hard man.

Where did I say that?

I'd prefer Foppa over Sakic

Gretzky above all but hes still soft.

I'd take Messier over anyone on the list not named gretzky.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Here we go again. If there is no Cup and you have now sacrificed two draft picks, while having a cupboard that is bereft of young talent, how is it a "win"?

This guy has derailed three threads to talk about this same exact thing. It's obvious to anyone who is reasonable that the trade could be a bust we saw that potential the last 20 RS games.

But it's also obvious to anyone who is reasonable that simply looking at it as "cup or bust" is short sighted and an incorrect way of evaluating an individual move b/c this is a scenario where a proper evaluation must include all the moves meant to construct a roster of 20+ individuals. Simply put you aren't being reasonable or logical in your evaluation of this one particular move by itself and you are making a LOT of assumptions to justify your stance, assumptions which may be untrue.

The MSL trade is not responsible for the farm being barren, a series of other moves, bad draft picks, early pick graduations and trades along with the MSL trade WOULD be responsible if it turns out that our pool actually is barren. It needs to be stated that the term "barren pool" is a matter of opinion to begin with and may prove to be wholly inaccurate as time goes on and picks continue to graduate and contribute without the NHL team missing a beat.

The whole premise of your stance overvalues prospect pools and undervalues the actual NHL team construction.

You know what would be reasonable? Saying that if we don't win the cup then the Nash trade, MSL trade and Clowe trade combined were all failures. Even then you're being too general but at least by looking at numerous moves with far reaching consequences you'd be just barely starting to evaluate like an actual NHL FO person rather than an entitled fan.

 

[True Blue]

It's not a matter of throwing punches at the opposition. But it is about wearing them down and I really do not believe that the Rangers do enough in that regards and I want more. Especially from the team leaders.

Absolutely true. It need not come from the leaders, however. It all goes back to construction of a team. The '11-12 team purportedly lacked talent and was build to grind it out. This team has more talent and is supposed to put on a skating exhibition each time (as one poster here declared "(the Flyers) can't hit what they can't catch".

This version is not built to win a war of attrition. They are not built to wear down their opponent. They surprised me on Tuesday by actually engaging the Flyers and winning their share of puck battles. But as some have pointed out, they looked more like a Torts team than an AV team. A good team needs to have both.

A skill exhibition team seldom wins Cups. Even teams with highly skilled players have other players who are built to play a different game. Or have those rare skill/grind combinations.

 

[True Blue]

Neither Chicago nor Detroit in their heydey were super tough. Sure they had their tougher grinders, but those teams aren't/weren't all that physical. No we don't have that talent, but there isn't one correct way to play the game.

Come on. Stop with the Chicago/Detroit comparisons. First of all, Detroit also had the Grind line and Holmstrom. Second of all, the skill level of those teams is so far above the Rangers, the comparison is not worth it.

No, there is not one correct way to play. But good teams are built with the right mix.

Go back and watch some of those Detroit/Colorado games. Detroit gave physically every bit as good as they got. Detroit was NEVER an easy team to play against.

 

[True Blue]

Its a win for Dolan and his added playoff revenue and jersey sales. Apologize for the smarmy response.

Fair. I would say that the extra jersey sales will happen. How much extra playoff revenue there is to be had, remains to be seen.

But if one evaluates from that vantage point, it is a fair comment.

 

[aufheben]

Detroit-Colorado were bloodbaths in the 90's, no? Different era though.

 

[True Blue]

but, you are entitled to your opinion. as am i.

Sure. My view is having bullets to draft players are more important than not having them at all. And given the short-term duration of this trade, I would have kept the bullets. I also know that St. Louis is a depreciating asset. I love what he is doing in the playoffs, but short of a cup, the better move, IMO, would have been to keep the assets as opposed to 1.25 years of MSL.

 

[True Blue]

Detroit-Colorado were bloodbaths in the 90's, no? Different era though.

Yes, but the comment was made about the Detroit heyday. And in their heyday, while certainly having skill, they gave every bit as good as they got. They could play the skill game. They could play the battle in the corners/boards game. To compare that Detroit team to this incarnation of the Rangers is absurd.

 

[NYR Viper]

Sure. My view is having bullets to draft players are more important than not having them at all. And given the short-term duration of this trade, I would have kept the bullets. I also know that St. Louis is a depreciating asset. I love what he is doing in the playoffs, but short of a cup, the better move, IMO, would have been to keep the assets as opposed to 1.25 years of MSL.

You can't keep putting off trying to compete. Hank is not going to last forever.

 

[True Blue]

You can't keep putting off trying to compete. Hank is not going to last forever.

I do not disagree and that is a very fair point. I certainly understand that eventually, a team has to go for it.

However, I do not view THIS team as a team that is a "go for it NOW' type of team. To me, this is not a "one player away" team. Off course I want MSL to score 50 goals in the playoffs and to deliver the 2nd Cup in over 70 years. But I do not think that the team is a true Cup contender. And if not a true Cup contender this year or next, then it would have been more prudent to hold on to the picks.

One need not share this view. But it is the view of this long suffering Rangers fan.

 

[nrf83]

Sure. My view is having bullets to draft players are more important than not having them at all. And given the short-term duration of this trade, I would have kept the bullets. I also know that St. Louis is a depreciating asset. I love what he is doing in the playoffs, but short of a cup, the better move, IMO, would have been to keep the assets as opposed to 1.25 years of MSL.

IMO we recouped those assets in Ryan Haggerty, Chris McCarthy and Mat Bodie; These players would be considered 2nd or 3rd round picks so I am comfortable with the MSL trade, esp w/what Cally was demanding. I know a lot of posters would be more comfortable with draft picks, but I never could understand why people feel the only way to field a team is through the draft. But we are never in a position to draft a McKinnion, Huberdeau Hedman etc etc, so we make do with what we can acquire. I absolutely refuse to tank; what a disgrace Pitt is for doing so and is rightfully disrespected through out hockey. If NYR ever do that I will never root for them again and I go back to Harry Howell Camille Henry Andy Bathgate yrs.

 

[Nyrvana]

I do not disagree and that is a very fair point. I certainly understand that eventually, a team has to go for it.

However, I do not view THIS team as a team that is a "go for it NOW' type of team. To me, this is not a "one player away" team. Off course I want MSL to score 50 goals in the playoffs and to deliver the 2nd Cup in over 70 years. But I do not think that the team is a true Cup contender. And if not a true Cup contender this year or next, then it would have been more prudent to hold on to the picks.

One need not share this view. But it is the view of this long suffering Rangers fan.

When would we be a "go for it team." You can't realistically expect to get much better other than upgrading Richards. That's it. We have 3 scoring lines, a very good 4th line, 3 #1 defenseman, 2 #2 defenseman, a bottom pairing guy, and an elite goaltender. How are we supposed to get better with a cap and not having a number #1 overall pick? This was the time, and as a fan I'm happy they went for it either way.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

When would we be a "go for it team." You can't realistically expect to get much better other than upgrading Richards. That's it. We have 3 scoring lines, a very good 4th line, 3 #1 defenseman, 2 #2 defenseman, a bottom pairing guy, and an elite goaltender. How are we supposed to get better with a cap and not having a number #1 overall pick? This was the time, and as a fan I'm happy they went for it either way.

We have a 32 year old goaltender, maybe we should wait another 10 years.

 

[True Blue]

IMO we recouped those assets in Ryan Haggerty, Chris McCarthy and Mat Bodie;

We signed rookie free agents. We did not recoup a lost first round pick. And another possible 1st round pick.

These players would be considered 2nd or 3rd round picks so I am comfortable with the MSL trade, esp w/what Cally was demanding.

Pure speculation. I can just as easily say that they would be considered 4th or 5th

round picks. I know a lot of posters would be more comfortable with draft picks, but I never could understand why people feel the only way to field a team is through the draft.

No one is denying posters their feelings. I know plenty of posters who are not comfortable with throwing away first round picks.

But we are never in a position to draft a McKinnion, Huberdeau Hedman etc etc, so we make do with what we can acquire.

So what? Acquiring players and not drafting them does not make for a solid long term solution.

I absolutely refuse to tank; what a disgrace Pitt is for doing so and is rightfully disrespected through out hockey. If NYR ever do that I will never root for them again and I go back to Harry Howell Camille Henry Andy Bathgate yrs.

Who is talking about tanking?

 

[True Blue]

When would we be a "go for it team."

When you look at a team and say "Yes, we are a legit contender and as good as any team". Not "If things break right, we can make a run".

You can't realistically expect to get much better other than upgrading Richards. That's it. We have 3 scoring lines, a very good 4th line, 3 #1 defenseman, 2 #2 defenseman, a bottom pairing guy, and an elite goaltender. How are we supposed to get better with a cap and not having a number #1 overall pick?

I can realistically ask for a better constructed, more talented team.

This was the time, and as a fan I'm happy they went for it either way.

Respectfully, my opinion is different.

 

[True Blue]

We have a 32 year old goaltender, maybe we should wait another 10 years.

Yup. You nailed down exactly what I am saying.

 

[McDunna with Fries]

I do not disagree and that is a very fair point. I certainly understand that eventually, a team has to go for it.

However, I do not view THIS team as a team that is a "go for it NOW' type of team. To me, this is not a "one player away" team. Off course I want MSL to score 50 goals in the playoffs and to deliver the 2nd Cup in over 70 years. But I do not think that the team is a true Cup contender. And if not a true Cup contender this year or next, then it would have been more prudent to hold on to the picks.

One need not share this view. But it is the view of this long suffering Rangers fan.

I believe in AV. I really do. Torts has given us no reason to believe in his team as a true contender because despite our defense, we could never score. This team just has a different swagger under AV. Way more fluid offense, our PP looks solid even when we don't score, and the puck possession game is great. We have a shot to win the cup, we ARE contenders. At least as close as you can get to being contenders with the Bruins being head and shoulders above everyone else.

 

[TheTakedown]

You can't keep putting off trying to compete. Hank is not going to last forever.

what is sad is that people are still upset that we ended up with an elite goal scorer who will most likely provide 3 more seasons beyond this one... that's about as long as Callahan would have lasted...

the 1.25 seasons of MSL that people keep projecting is a worse case scenario. Everyone has been saying this about Jagr for years now, and yet he's still scoring 25 goals a season, even on the slowest, lousiest teams in the league

3 season of elite goal scoring for a crapshoot 1st round pick... I'l ltake it

 

[True Blue]

what is sad is that people are still upset that we ended up with an elite goal scorer who will most likely provide 3 more seasons beyond this one... that's about as long as Callahan would have lasted...

First of all, what are you going to point to to show that MSL will resign? Second of all, MSL's level will only decrease year to year. So it is debatable if he will be an elite level goal scorer over the next 3 years.

Everyone has been saying this about Jagr for years now, and yet he's still scoring 25 goals a season, even on the slowest, lousiest teams in the league

In the entire history of the NHL, how many of such players have there been?

3 season of elite goal scoring for a crapshoot 1st round pick... I'l ltake it

1) he has not resigned yet. 2) chances are much better that he is not elite

 

[Thirty One]

In the entire history of the NHL, how many of such players have there been?

How many people have been elite at 38, but not at 40?

 

[True Blue]

I believe in AV. I really do. Torts has given us no reason to believe in his team as a true contender because despite our defense, we could never score.

The 11-12 team scored more goals than this one.

This team just has a different swagger under AV. Way more fluid offense, our PP looks solid even when we don't score, and the puck possession game is great.

That is fine, if that your view. I think that Tort's teams had a chance to win the Cup as well.

We have a shot to win the cup, we ARE contenders. At least as close as you can get to being contenders with the Bruins being head and shoulders above everyone else.

Are you saying that this team is a true contender and Torts's teams were not?

 

[True Blue]

How many people have been elite at 38, but not at 40?

Nice word smithing, but that is not really answering my question.