Player Discussion Marner

[ACC1224]

Who the f*** cares? That’s my answer. A goal is a goal. Why are we qualitatively quantifying goals? This is why I think you’re the penultimate Marner hater. It’s never about finding common ground for you like it is for other posters. You clearly have something against Marner for whatever reason and it isn’t logical. It’s just hate to hate, you’re complaining about a goal he scored cause he didn’t score it the way you want. That’s honestly insane.

I don’t know what Marner has done to you or your family but you do come across more than anyone on this board as displaying irrational hate. And it’s a non stop, daily thing. It’s not healthy lol. For the time being he’s a leaf and I want the leafs to have success so I’m going to cheer for every last player on the roster (including Marner).

At least other people are bringing good arguments with reason. For example we have too much cap space invested in forwards so letting Marner walk makes sense in their heads and they can acknowledge he’s a good player.

Ding ding.

 

[ACC1224]

Mats Sundin hopes Toronto Maple Leafs captain Auston Matthews rewrites team's record book | TSN

Sundin registered 420 goals and put up 987 points in his 981 regular-season games with Toronto. Star centre and current captain Auston Matthews, who scored an outrageous 69 times in 2023-24, sat just 50 goals back heading into Monday's action.

www.tsn.ca

"Mitch Marner, in my eyes, is one of the best players in the league," Sundin said. "A great two-way player, great person off the ice. He's going to be a great asset for the Leafs this year and hopefully in the future."

 

[rumman]

True, but not as much as he would likely have to pay Marner.

Best to stop the overpayments, and the sooner the better.

agreed.........

 

[thusk]

View attachment 919384

Mitch Marner Playoff Stats unclutch.


so, running it back (aka Signing Marner) is not a good idea ?

Moving marner but still get Matthews inconstent in his production or still get a nylander who struggling to produce and still outplayed vs against opp top 2 line.

Or still started to play really hardand and rise their game only when they are trailing late or still struggling to keep any kind of lead... Nothing will change... If you're leader don't do it whatever who are behind, nobody will...

 

[Mess]

Were you intentionally trying to be ironic when you picked your online name?

How many goals will Matthews, Nylander and Tavares need to score to validate Marner's new next contract?

Auston, Willy and Tavares as $11 mil + players are all on their own lines driving offense individually as any player making that amount would be expected to, but Marner the only other $11 mil player needs to ALWAYS ride shotgun with another top player and the only one that can't be put on his own line to drive offense.

That essentially makes Marner a passenger in the offense based on his utilization,

Why is Marner not playing with Domi and McMann while Nylander getting the free ride playing alongside Matthews and/or Tavares and propping up his personal stats via his teammates productivity and goal scoring?

That is why it makes Marner the most disposable/dispensable of the core 4 where the other 3 can each drive their own lines in a top 9. You could turn Marner's future $12 mil into a $6 mil top 6 winger and $6 mil Dman defender and increase the teams depth and skill in multiple players instead of just one.

 

[thewave]

True, but not as much as he would likely have to pay Marner.

Best to stop the overpayments, and the sooner the better.

Can you imagine a history timeline that read. Remember that time the Leafs had two of the best goal scorers in the world. One of them the best goal scorer in the world and also one of the best playmakers of all time but couldn't win because they overpaid the stars and lacked the depth to make it all the way?

That would be pretty much the ultimate failure in sports history.

 

[LeafSteel]

How many goals will Matthews, Nylander and Tavares need to score to validate Marner's new next contract?

Auston, Willy and Tavares as $11 mil + players are all on their own lines driving offense individually as any player making that amount would be expected to, but Marner the only other $11 mil player needs to ALWAYS ride shotgun with another top player and the only one that can't be put on his own line to drive offense.

That essentially makes Marner a passenger in the offense based on his utilization,

Why is Marner not playing with Domi and McMann while Nylander getting the free ride playing alongside Matthews and/or Tavares and propping up his personal stats via his teammates productivity and goal scoring?

That is why it makes Marner the most disposable/dispensable of the core 4 where the other 3 can each drive their own lines in a top 9. You could turn Marner's future $12 mil into a $6 mil top 6 winger and $6 mil Dman defender and increase the teams depth and skill in multiple players instead of just one.

Well said, but this won’t go over well with the Cult of Marnerality….

The only way the Leafs improve without Marner on the team is if they use the $12m that he would have been paid, to improve our forwards and defence.

Unless that is done, moving on from Marner will weaken the team. Treliving needs to use the freed up cap space on players who make us better.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

tis news to me that you can embed reddit pages on HF

You just paste the link and HFBoards has the s9e Media sites Xenforo addon installed and it cURLs the link to make a pretty embed.

 

[ACC1224]

How many goals will Matthews, Nylander and Tavares need to score to validate Marner's new next contract?

Auston, Willy and Tavares as $11 mil + players are all on their own lines driving offense individually as any player making that amount would be expected to, but Marner the only other $11 mil player needs to ALWAYS ride shotgun with another top player and the only one that can't be put on his own line to drive offense.

That essentially makes Marner a passenger in the offense based on his utilization,

Why is Marner not playing with Domi and McMann while Nylander getting the free ride playing alongside Matthews and/or Tavares and propping up his personal stats via his teammates productivity and goal scoring?

That is why it makes Marner the most disposable/dispensable of the core 4 where the other 3 can each drive their own lines in a top 9. You could turn Marner's future $12 mil into a $6 mil top 6 winger and $6 mil Dman defender and increase the teams depth and skill in multiple players instead of just one.

You should get into stand up.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Cult of Marnerality,

sung to the tune of ...

 

[LeafSteel]

Rocksung to the tune of ...

This guy gets it!

 

[Dekes For Days]

You still have no comparable that marners level of production as less than 30 goal 1 time 90 pt player was worth 13.4% of the over 6 years.

You were given a comparable multiple posts back. The closest player to Marner in P/GP (your stat), with a comparable contract valuation. The problem is, you don't accept anything. You know that we're talking about a range of player and contract that is already extremely rare, and you know that many of the top players within a range of Marner's quality have been more-goal oriented than Marner, so you have fabricated this idea that goals are somehow special, dismissed the fundamental value of playmaking based on nothing, ignored all context for the players involved, and crafted criteria to exclude anything that isn't your one cherry picked comparable. And then you (inconsistently) apply your couple cherry picked stats, put your finger in your ears, and go la la la over everything that proves you wrong.

Heck Kane had a 30 goal and 88 pt season and got 10.6% the cap for 5 years.

No, he didn't. He had a career high of 25 goals and 72 points. And got the equivalent of a 9.04m x 5 year contract.

Drai/matthews/mackinnon all got virtually identical cap percentages.

It's wild that you still don't understand that that is an argument against your own argument. By your argument, they shouldn't have.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

@ACC1224 - is there an AAV request from Marner that you don't sign ?

This thread of Marner Musings is meaningless unless Money is mentioned.

MMMMMMM

everyone VOTE:

click
(1) Like (on this post) if you don't sign 12.5 AAV x 8 years
(2) Laugh if you will sign 12.5 AAV x 8 years.


Don't vote if you are chicken shit.

Me: I don't sign 12.5 AAV x 8

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Ask not what the Leafs can do for you.


what a great song. "The Cult of Personality"

applies to 99% of all social media "Influencers"

Spoiler: Lyrics

And during the few moments that we have left
We want to talk right down to earth
In a language that everybody here can easily understand

Look in my eyes
What do you see?
The cult of personality

I know your anger, I know your dreams
I've been everything you want to be
Oh, I'm the cult of personality

Like Mussolini and Kennedy
I'm the cult of personality
The cult of personality
The cult of personality

Neon lights, a Nobel prize
When a mirror speaks, the reflection lies
You won't have to follow me
Only you can set me free

I sell the things you need to be
I'm the smiling face on your TV
Oh, I'm the cult of personality

I exploit you, still you love me
I tell you, one and one makes three
Oh, I'm the cult of personality

Like Joseph Stalin and Gandhi
I'm the cult of personality
The cult of personality
The cult of personality

Neon lights, a Nobel prize
When a leader speaks, that leader dies
You won't have to follow me
Only you can set you free

You gave me fortune, you gave me fame
You gave me power in your god's name
I'm every person you need to be
Oh, I'm the cult of personality

I am the cult of, I am the cult of
I am the cult of, I am the cult of
I am the cult of, I am the cult of
I am the cult of, I am the cult of personality

Ask not what your country can do for you
The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself

 

[mjd1001]

@ACC1224 - is there an AAV request from Marner that you don't sign ?

This thread of Marner Musings is meaningless unless Money is mentioned.

MMMMMMM

View attachment 919422

everyone VOTE:

click
(1) Like this post if you don't sign 12.5 AAV x 8 years
(2) Laugh if you will sign 12.5 AAV x 8 years.


Don't vote if you are chicken shit.

Me: I don't sign 12.5 AAV x 8

Here is the thing.

Do you 'trade' increasing your chance at a cup for the next 3 years for being worse in the following 5 years?

Because I think the best chance this current team has at a cup is the window in the next 3 years (2-3 years) with Marner on the team. If you sign him for 8 years, you are likely to get the back end of that contract to look like what you have with Tavares now (and that will likely be the case, at the same time, with Nylander..don't kid yourself thinking otherwise.)

The issue is, its likely to GET that next 2-3 years of him here, you are going to have to pay him for 8. If you could sign him to $12.5m for the next 4 years that would be great, but we all think he's going to want a long term deal..its better for him.

 

[Mess]

Well said, but this won’t go over well with the Cult of Marnerality….

The only way the Leafs improve without Marner on the team is if they use the $12m that he would have been paid, to improve our forwards and defence.

Unless that is done, moving on from Marner will weaken the team. Treliving needs to use the freed up cap space on players who make us better.

Leafs have 4 of the top 12 highest contracts AAV in the NHL, while the other 31 teams combined for the other 8 combined. That is complete lunacy in a Salary Cap world using up 53% of their entire cap space.

Its a wise saying "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" .. This is a piece of advice which means that one should not concentrate all efforts and resources in one area as one could lose everything.

When you can have a single goalie Shesterkin holding the Leafs to 1 goal in this case shutting out Marner, Nylander and Tavares, and we have seen how this makes the Leafs an easy out come playoff time EVERY year, because the teams remaining depth is always limited due to cap space where the opposition will have more balanced cap spending to overcome only a few players being held in check.

This to me makes Marner the most likely to move on from because ..
1) Centres have more value than wingers in team building and much greater responsibilities and "strength down the middle a key to success". Strong centres carry their lines and make their wingers better.

2) Goal scorers are more valuable than playmakers as its goals that decide games not pretty passes.

3) The goal of any season is not piling up regular season points but winning the championship in the playoffs.. The playoffs are far more physical and where time and space is removed and as such smaller. softer and non physcal players struggle, and of the core 4 more than Marner.

4) Balance the attack, by spending $6 mil on a top 6 winger capable of 25-30 goals (which matches Marner goal production for 1/2 the cap cost) & then bring in a top 4 Dman for another $6 mil to prop up the defense and increasing its depth where a player like McCabe becomes a bottom 6 player but having better players above him.

5) Marner is one of the biggest overpaid players in the game.. Kucherov coming off a 44 goal 100 assist 144 points season as the best WINGER in the game occupies $9.5 mil as a direct Div rival to the Leafs. Marner has never scored 100 points let alone 100 assists in a single season, so how can ANYONE validate a contract where Leafs need to pay him say $12.5 mil (+$3 mil more) that the best player at his positon?

 

[ZEBROA]

The only way to settle this is to not sign. Or the megafans will go on forever with how great advanced stats he got ,and the critics will go on forever on how he folds under pressure.

Would we be crap without him or would the needle not move to much at all?

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Leafs have 4 of the top 12 highest contracts AAV in the NHL, while the other 31 teams combined for the other 8 combined. That is complete lunacy in a Salary Cap world using up 53% of their entire cap space.

"We can and we will"

(but shouldn't)

______________ Previously GM, new on the job, making rookie mistakes.

 

[Legion34]

You were given a comparable multiple posts back. The closest player to Marner in P/GP (your stat), with a comparable contract valuation. The problem is, you don't accept anything. You know that we're talking about a range of player and contract that is already extremely rare, and you know that many of the top players within a range of Marner's quality have been more-goal oriented than Marner, so you have fabricated this idea that goals are somehow special, dismissed the fundamental value of playmaking based on nothing, ignored all context for the players involved, and crafted criteria to exclude anything that isn't your one cherry picked comparable. And then you (inconsistently) apply your couple cherry picked stats, put your finger in your ears, and go la la la over everything that proves you wrong.

No, he didn't. He had a career high of 25 goals and 72 points. And got the equivalent of a 9.04m x 5 year contract.

It's wild that you still don't understand that that is an argument against your own argument. By your argument, they shouldn't have.

lol was the “closest” a 40 goal scorer from like 2005? Sure. Goals are more predictive than points. That’s why Matthews/heatley/nash/Kovy got more.

For Auston You had to go back to those players because that was the last time an ELC player was a top goal scorer in the league. Matthews contract was fair.

A 23 goal 76 pt winger is not unheard of.

A top 3 goal scoring rate center is pretty unique.


Marner had 225 pts in 241 games 76.5 pts
Miko. Had 209 pts in 230 games. 74.2 pts.

Considering rantanen had more goals they were comparable.

Willy was an 8-9% aav player
Mitch Was an 10.5-11.5 aav playet
Auston was about a 14% aav player

Mitch was about 9.25. He loved his junior number so much he should have taken 9.3.

He could have taken 9.93 and got the money he earned from bonuses.

Overall it’s not fatal. 1-1.5 million too much isn’t the end of the world. Dubas did ok. But there is zero precedent for this contract and you know it.

Or you would have posted it

 

[rumman]

sung to the tune of ...

Blast from the past……….

This guy gets it!

Roger that……..

@ACC1224 - is there an AAV request from Marner that you don't sign ?

This thread of Marner Musings is meaningless unless Money is mentioned.

MMMMMMM

View attachment 919422

everyone VOTE:

click
(1) Like (on this post) if you don't sign 12.5 AAV x 8 years
(2) Laugh if you will sign 12.5 AAV x 8 years.


Don't vote if you are chicken shit.

Me: I don't sign 12.5 AAV x 8

What if your toolbox is missing tools?????

Ask not what the Leafs can do for you.


what a great song. "The Cult of Personality"

applies to 99% of all social media "Influencers"

Spoiler: Lyrics

And during the few moments that we have left
We want to talk right down to earth
In a language that everybody here can easily understand

Look in my eyes
What do you see?
The cult of personality

I know your anger, I know your dreams
I've been everything you want to be
Oh, I'm the cult of personality

Like Mussolini and Kennedy
I'm the cult of personality
The cult of personality
The cult of personality

Neon lights, a Nobel prize
When a mirror speaks, the reflection lies
You won't have to follow me
Only you can set me free

I sell the things you need to be
I'm the smiling face on your TV
Oh, I'm the cult of personality

I exploit you, still you love me
I tell you, one and one makes three
Oh, I'm the cult of personality

Like Joseph Stalin and Gandhi
I'm the cult of personality
The cult of personality
The cult of personality

Neon lights, a Nobel prize
When a leader speaks, that leader dies
You won't have to follow me
Only you can set you free

You gave me fortune, you gave me fame
You gave me power in your god's name
I'm every person you need to be
Oh, I'm the cult of personality

I am the cult of, I am the cult of
I am the cult of, I am the cult of
I am the cult of, I am the cult of
I am the cult of, I am the cult of personality

Ask not what your country can do for you
The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself

Indeed…….

Here is the thing.

Do you 'trade' increasing your chance at a cup for the next 3 years for being worse in the following 5 years?

Because I think the best chance this current team has at a cup is the window in the next 3 years (2-3 years) with Marner on the team. If you sign him for 8 years, you are likely to get the back end of that contract to look like what you have with Tavares now (and that will likely be the case, at the same time, with Nylander..don't kid yourself thinking otherwise.)

The issue is, its likely to GET that next 2-3 years of him here, you are going to have to pay him for 8. If you could sign him to $12.5m for the next 4 years that would be great, but we all think he's going to want a long term deal..its better for him.

People have been saying that about this supposed window for years……..

 

[rumman]

Well said, but this won’t go over well with the Cult of Marnerality….

The only way the Leafs improve without Marner on the team is if they use the $12m that he would have been paid, to improve our forwards and defence.

Unless that is done, moving on from Marner will weaken the team. Treliving needs to use the freed up cap space on players who make us better.

Priceless……..

Leafs have 4 of the top 12 highest contracts AAV in the NHL, while the other 31 teams combined for the other 8 combined. That is complete lunacy in a Salary Cap world using up 53% of their entire cap space.

Its a wise saying "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" .. This is a piece of advice which means that one should not concentrate all efforts and resources in one area as one could lose everything.

When you can have a single goalie Shesterkin holding the Leafs to 1 goal in this case shutting out Marner, Nylander and Tavares, and we have seen how this makes the Leafs an easy out come playoff time EVERY year, because the teams remaining depth is always limited due to cap space where the opposition will have more balanced cap spending to overcome only a few players being held in check.

This to me makes Marner the most likely to move on from because ..
1) Centres have more value than wingers in team building and much greater responsibilities and "strength down the middle a key to success". Strong centres carry their lines and make their wingers better.

2) Goal scorers are more valuable than playmakers as its goals that decide games not pretty passes.

3) The goal of any season is not piling up regular season points but winning the championship in the playoffs.. The playoffs are far more physical and where time and space is removed and as such smaller. softer and non physcal players struggle, and of the core 4 more than Marner.

4) Balance the attack, by spending $6 mil on a top 6 winger capable of 25-30 goals (which matches Marner goal production for 1/2 the cap cost) & then bring in a top 4 Dman for another $6 mil to prop up the defense and increasing its depth where a player like McCabe becomes a bottom 6 player but having better players above him.

5) Marner is one of the biggest overpaid players in the game.. Kucherov coming off a 44 goal 100 assist 144 points season as the best WINGER in the game occupies $9.5 mil as a direct Div rival to the Leafs. Marner has never scored 100 points let alone 100 assists in a single season, so how can ANYONE validate a contract where Leafs need to pay him say $12.5 mil (+$3 mil more) that the best player at his positon?

And Leaf Nation wants to pony up for more lunacy, it’s mind boggling……….

The only way to settle this is to not sign. Or the megafans will go on forever with how great advanced stats he got ,and the critics will go on forever on how he folds under pressure.

Would we be crap without him or would the needle not move to much at all?

Teams always find a way to carry on……..my wayward son………..

 

[HamiltonNHL]

he's going to want a long term deal.. its better for him.

He's a cap casualty.

Of course I'd like to sign him.

we just don't have the money, we need plenty of roster tweaks to build a cup team.

We need to spread out the Marner money to other players.

 

[rumman]

"We can and we will"

(but shouldn't)

______________ Previously GM, new on the job, making rookie mistakes.

That bit of arrogance will never be forgotten……….

 

[sunstersun]

Regardless of Marner, our results the last 8 years have been bad. His fault or someone else's fault we have to try something new.

Trading or letting Marner walk might make us worse, or it might make us better. We have to take the risk because the alternative is 16 years of 1st round exits.

We can't trade Nylander or Matthews. Marner is the oddball out by circumstance and the need for a trade.

This isn't even evaluating them as players. Contract wise, Nylander was the most at risk at not being a Leaf, after he signed, Marner shot up probability wise to go.

 

[ZEBROA]

Priceless……..


And Leaf Nation wants to pony up for more lunacy, it’s mind boggling……….


Teams always find a way to carry on……..my wayward son………..

Love these song tips