Player Discussion Marner

HamiltonNHL

Resigning Marner == Running it back
Jan 4, 2012
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I just want Marner to shoot more. He has a good shot.
are you Mitch’s mom ?

Only a mother could love a shot like that.

Get real.

Let’s use an objective measure of a player’s shot.

Let’s call it: “Goals”.

I’ll take Rantanen for a better price and ability to play playoff hockey.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
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What are the real leverage team had with superstar, sit them until deadline to sign, taking a risk that can hurt you and maybe making you make you miss the playoff... They did with Nylander and did they really worked?!?!

The only leverage was to compare with player in the team...
:facepalm:
 

notbias

Registered User
Feb 16, 2017
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There was a study that indicated quality of linemates was a big determining factor to players. Here are Marner and Matthews linemates from 2019.

2019 Marner Teammates:
28 year old Tavares
27 Year old Hyman

2019 Matthews Teammates:
In this order:
40 year old Marleau
23 year old Kapanen,
23 year old Nylander
25 year old Johnsson

Surprisingly, depite his lower end linemates. Just looking at gamelogs, Matthews was often drawing opposing teams best defenders in 2019. But not always. So this lijely helped both Marner and Matthews lines.

So... Marner was essentially playing on a top line but getting away from the oppositions best D, likely more than most top lines. Compare that to say Barzal, who had a defensive minded coach, poorer qualuty of linemates and stiffer competition. Same goes to Aho.

Didn't realize QoT was so important, does it matter if you're the driving force on the line?

Assuming you think guys like Rantanen, Draisaitl, and Point are VERY overrated, correct?

What was the difference in QoC?
 

francis246

Registered User
Nov 16, 2007
14,201
17,587
are you Mitch’s mom ?

Only a mother could love a shot like that.

Get real.

Let’s use an objective measure of a player’s shot.

Let’s call it: “Goals”.

I’ll take Rantanen for a better price and ability to play playoff hockey.

What do you gain from saying shit like this? Grow up. You act like a child everyday on these boards. It was funny at first but now it’s highly annoying and not productive.

I want our best players to play good and score. There’s nothing wrong with Marner’s shot. Same with Domi. Both those guys just continually defer for no reason. Who gives a flying f*** about Rantanen. He’s not a leaf, he will never be a Maple Leaf.
 
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Sypher04

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
12,712
11,533
are you Mitch’s mom ?

Only a mother could love a shot like that.

Get real.

Let’s use an objective measure of a player’s shot.

Let’s call it: “Goals”.

I’ll take Rantanen for a better price and ability to play playoff hockey.

Marner has been effectively a 30+ goal, 100 point player for 3 years running. And only 1 season in the last 7 where he scored less than 20 (16 in 59 games - Covid shortened season)

Players who can’t shoot don’t score 30.

He just needs to shoot more when he has prime scoring chances.
 

HamiltonNHL

Resigning Marner == Running it back
Jan 4, 2012
22,514
13,700
effectively a 30+ goal,
now do playoffs.

30+ goal, 100 point player for 3 years running.
He's a great player we can afford.
He was given an overpay contract by rookie Dubas.
It turns out our core isn't going to work in the post season.

I'd love to sign Marner to a reasonable deal. He needs to know he was overpaid.

I just don't see him on the Leafs next year. He's not affordable for a team with missing pieces.

Marner = Cap Casualty.

Good news for you is MLSE doesn't really care about winning.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
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Marner has been effectively a 30+ goal, 100 point player for 3 years running. And only 1 season in the last 7 where he scored less than 20 (16 in 59 games - Covid shortened season)

Players who can’t shoot don’t score 30.

He just needs to shoot more when he has prime scoring chances.
For me personally, I don't care if he's scoring or assisting, as long as he's contributing it's all good. Regular season Marner has always been great, the issue with him is as always ... playoffs. For his career in the playoffs, he's pacing for 14 goals and 70 points over 82 games. Scoring of course drops off in the playoffs but not by that much. And of course the offence he does create comes almost exclusively in the first 4 games, after that he's gone.
 
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Antropovsky

Registered User
Jun 2, 2007
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Didn't realize QoT was so important, does it matter if you're the driving force on the line?

Assuming you think guys like Rantanen, Draisaitl, and Point are VERY overrated, correct?

What was the difference in QoC?
Why would I think they are overrated? All were paid much less than Marner on their post ELC contracts. 2/3 play the harder and more valuable center position. All have majorly outproduced Marner in playoffs.

Point will have made 50 million in the past 6 years, while Marner made 65 million. That is 30% less than Marner over the same 6 years.

Point actually outproduced Marner in 2019 (their contract years) too. Point had 92 points and paced 96 while Marner had 94.

Point of course has blown Marner out of the water in the playoffs. Weve been fortunate to see Tampa in the playoffs and ive always been impressed with Points compete level. While Marners compete has been bad.
 
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Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
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Why would I think they are overrated? All were paid much less than Marner on their post ELC contracts. 2/3 play the harder and more valuable center position. All have majorly outproduced Marner in playoffs.

Point will have made 50 million in the past 6 years, while Marner made 65 million. That is 30% less than Marner over the same 6 years.

Point actually outproduced Marner in 2019 (their contract years) too. Point had 92 points and paced 96 while Marner had 94.

Point of course has blown Marner out of the water in the playoffs. Weve been fortunate to see Tampa in the playoffs and ive always been impressed with Points compete level. While Marners compete has been bad.
I was wondering about that as well. Of course that guy hasn't been making much sense lately so ...
 

notbias

Registered User
Feb 16, 2017
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Why would I think they are overrated? All were paid much less than Marner on their post ELC contracts. 2/3 play the harder and more valuable center position. All have majorly outproduced Marner in playoffs.

Point will have made 50 million in the past 6 years, while Marner made 65 million. That is 30% less than Marner over the same 6 years.

Point actually outproduced Marner in 2019 (their contract years) too. Point had 92 points and paced 96 while Marner had 94.

Point of course has blown Marner out of the water in the playoffs. Weve been fortunate to see Tampa in the playoffs and ive always been impressed with Points compete level. While Marners compete has been bad.

Why are you not mentioning MacKinnon, McDavid, and Kucherov here but you mentioned Tavares and Hyman with Marner?

Seems like there is a motive (I already know there is).

You made a huge post about the quality of line mates being very important, just keep consistent, that's all.
 

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
21,113
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They produced at a shockingly similar level.
They didn't. That's been shown to you multiple times. Evidence of teams considering context is all around us. That's why, for example, we tend to see inflationary impacts on contracts in situations where players are driving their own levels of production in difficult situations (ex. Eichel, Nash, etc.) and deflationary impacts on contracts in situations where players are benefitting from a superior player (ex. Point, Backstrom, etc.).

We also see teams consider the impact of opportunity discrepancies outside of a player's control on raw points all the time. That's why McDavid wasn't counted as just a ~50 point player in his first year, or Heatley as a ~25 point player in his 3rd. That's why Eichel and Nash weren't counted as just ~55 point players when they signed. That's why everybody doesn't have their contracts plummet after shortened seasons. Etc. That's why you're boosting Rantanen's numbers up, in this very discussion, as you refuse to make the same considerations for Marner.

You're making a lot of demands for the most obscure direct comparables and examples of unprecedented situations, because you know that's not what this is about. It takes understanding production metrics, how they are formed, and what they mean. It takes understanding the correlations and driving factors and considerations behind contracts. It takes having an understanding of the history of contracts and where players belong. Marner is right in the cap hit percentage range and ranking range that he belongs.

You want to ignore the elephant in the room, and pretend that the only thing that matters is points.

Marner: 224 points, 10.9m x 6 years
Crosby: 222 points, 14.1m x 5 years

Oh, wait! Not like that! It's actually all about points per game! That's all that matters!

Marner: 0.93 P/GP, 10.9m x 6 years
Nash: 0.62 P/GP, 11.3m x 5 years

Oh, no, no, no! Not like that either! Pretend you didn't see that! It's actually goals! They're super dee duper special because I said so. It's all that matters!

Marner: 67 goals, 10.9m x 6 years
Eichel: 48, 10.9m x 8 years

No wait! Forget that! Goals per game! Final change! That's all that matters!

Matthews: 0.53 G/GP, 11.6m x 5 years
McDavid: 0.36 G/GP, 13.6m x 8 years

You're just picking and choosing whatever suits your argument in the moment, but there's no actual evidence or consistency behind it. Rantanen wasn't even the closest statistically to Marner. If anything, he's closer to an example of compensation being misaligned from raw statistical production because it became disconnected from their impacts. By P/GP, I believe the closest would be Heatley, with a 0.02 difference, and pretty comparable contracts (9.4m x 3 years vs. 10.9m x 6 years).
 

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
21,113
15,874
What are the real leverage team had with superstar, sit them until deadline to sign, taking a risk that can hurt you and maybe making you make you miss the playoff... They did with Nylander and did they really worked?!?! The only leverage was to compare with player in the team...
Yes, teams have limited leverage when it comes to their superstars.
No, there is no evidence that contracts are constrained or inflated by internal contracts, let alone unrelated ones.
We never had any contracts to even attempt to constrain anything with anyway. They were better than everybody else. They didn't care.
 

Confucius

There is no try, Just do
Feb 8, 2009
23,096
7,693
Toronto
For me personally, I don't care if he's scoring or assisting, as long as he's contributing it's all good. Regular season Marner has always been great, the issue with him is as always ... playoffs. For his career in the playoffs, he's pacing for 14 goals and 70 points over 82 games. Scoring of course drops off in the playoffs but not by that much. And of course the offence he does create comes almost exclusively in the first 4 games, after that he's gone.
That may be but I still can’t overlook he has put up more playoff points than anybody else on this team over the course of their careers
 
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Gabriel426

Registered User
Jun 30, 2015
17,989
11,614
Another bad argument. Matthews is not scoring 70 goals playing a full 82 season with Pierre Engvall or David Kampf. You’re being facetious and you know it. There is a reason Matthews got pissed off spending three years playing along side a guy like Hyman and not having a guy who can get him the puck like Willy or Marner. Thats why Babcock went to Arizona to smooth things over. Although Hyman has grown into a great player at the time he couldn’t make elite plays for Matthews consistently.

We all know the difference between a Marner or even a Domi and an Engvall/Kampf. It’s the rate at which they can make those plays and the quality of those plays. Saying Matthews can do it with anyone is a weak argument and we all know it’s not true. You can say one player is more valuable without trying to diminish the talent of another. Even Knies who is better than both Engvall and Kampf couldn’t even put up more than 40 points playing a majority of a season with Matthews. It’s not as simple as you keep trying to imply.
Think you misunderstood my point.

What I am trying to say is that does a shooter score bc of his shot or does he scores bc of the pass.

Like when AM or Ovie or McD when they score a goal, they needed to deke around a player or blast one top selve, does it matters who made the pass since it was the shooter that made the goal happened. On the other hand, like the goal that Willie scored the other day, Domi made it happened and I think even a guy like Reaves could probably score off that feed from Domi.

Essentially what I am saying is that I don’t think AM or MM needs one another to show off their talents but goals will always be more important than assists.
 

Antropovsky

Registered User
Jun 2, 2007
15,059
6,724
That may be but I still can’t overlook he has put up more playoff points than anybody else on this team over the course of their careers
Matthews has more point %. Additional removing pp stats, they get a little further apart in Matthews favor. Also, this is despite Matthews playing an entire season with primarily scrubs in 2018 compared to Marner playing with Hyman and Tavares all year.

Marner got 2019 Tavares, and since 2020 has primarily played with Matthews. Marner always gets the best linemates. If lines were
Tavares Matthews
Nylander Marner

Im willing to bet Tavares and Matthews would have a sizeable lead on Marner.
 

Gabriel426

Registered User
Jun 30, 2015
17,989
11,614
What do you gain from saying shit like this? Grow up. You act like a child everyday on these boards. It was funny at first but now it’s highly annoying and not productive.

I want our best players to play good and score. There’s nothing wrong with Marner’s shot. Same with Domi. Both those guys just continually defer for no reason. Who gives a flying f*** about Rantanen. He’s not a leaf, he will never be a Maple Leaf.
I just think Hockey players in general got tunnel vision of what they can do on the ice.
Not just MM or Domi or Reilly in terms of shooting, a lot of them will just focus doing ONE thing and forget they can do other things too.
Once they set their mind to pass, they just won’t shoot. Or once they set their mind to play D, they just won’t pinch or be aggressive in their forecheck.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
30,904
24,232
I just think Hockey players in general got tunnel vision of what they can do on the ice.
Not just MM or Domi or Reilly in terms of shooting, a lot of them will just focus doing ONE thing and forget they can do other things too.
Once they set their mind to pass, they just won’t shoot. Or once they set their mind to play D, they just won’t pinch or be aggressive in their forecheck.
I think there might be something to this. Apparently Berube has said that Domi should shoot more (just one shot through 3 games IIRC) which suggests that you might be on to something.
 
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ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
76,000
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I can't wait to read this thread after he signs a massive deal with the Leafs. It will be some kind of toxic in here.
It really won't be much different. Same brain dead comments all day every day.
 

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