Player Discussion Marner

[francis246]

21 goals in our last 11 playoff games. The problem has been scoring

Now that our d is set. I fully expect us to be acquiring a 2C with term this year. I think Liljegren and maybe someone like McMann might be packaged to get that.

 

[sunstersun]

There was no Marner overpay. There was a Nylander overpay, that was the result of Treliving, not Marner.

Lmao, what? We didn't overpay marner?

I was kinda tired and this woke me up so thanks.

 

[thewave]

There was no Marner overpay. There was a Nylander overpay, that was the result of Treliving, not Marner.

April 1st is a bit a ways away there bud, don't ya know.

Clearly Marner the RFA did not have the numbers to get that contract vs comparable players.

 

[Legion34]

That's a fact, but it all stemmed from the John Tavares overpay @$11 mil that started it all.

Tavares was a Full UFA signing and a Clueless Dubas gave Marner essentially the same contract as a RFA (first 4 years).

The difference between JT @ $11 mil X last 6 years = $ 66 mil vs. Marner @$10.9 mil X 6 = $65.4 mil .. Difference $600k over contract.

Those contract were based on a Salary cap back in 2018-19 Salary Cap.

So Willy of course who outscores JT most years will also want > $11 mil per because of JT and because Marner has already been foolishly given that on his past contract.

John Tavares was not an overpay. He was literally offered more Money other places.

He was a no 1 c and 2 time hart trophy finalist.

Tavares has a better ufa case than Marner. It’s not close.

He hasn’t aged as well sure. But he was not an over pay

 

[Dekes For Days]

Clearly Marner the RFA did not have the numbers to get that contract vs comparable players.

Marner earned his contract relative to his comparables. So did Tavares. So did Matthews on both contracts. So did Nylander on his first contract.
Only real questionable one relative to comparables is Nylander's current one.

 

[Antropovsky]

John Tavares was not an overpay. He was literally offered more Money other places.

He was a no 1 c and 2 time hart trophy finalist.

Tavares has a better ufa case than Marner. It’s not close.

He hasn’t aged as well sure. But he was not an over pay

Pick your poison.

John Tavares between 18-27
Stats:
24 gp 11 goals 22 points
Pace:
82gp 38 goals 75 points
No star player linemates


Marner between 18-27
Stats:
57 gp 11 goals 50 points
Pace:
82 gp 16 goals 72 points
Loaded with star linemates

 

[Legion34]

Marner earned his contract relative to his comparables. So did Tavares. So did Matthews on both contracts. So did Nylander on his first contract.
Only real questionable one relative to comparables is Nylander's current one.

Marner did not. There is nothing to suggest that the was worth than rantanen. Even considering the bonuses that Lou cheated him out of.

Willy was right In line with multiple comparables (forsberg/pasta/ehlers/gaudreau) considering total body of work and taxes.

Matthews was right in line with 5 year contracts although from a while ago. (Nash/kovy/malkin/crosby). Save stamkos signing in a no tax market.

Mitch was overpaid. Not by a ton but he was the only sub 30 g 90 pt winger to get 10.93.

He should have been around 9.75. Marner has no comparables that got what he got.
Rantanen had similar pace and had about 15 more goals and 15 less points in less
Games.

Rantanen got 9.25. Marner got 10.93 There is not a 1.7 million dollar difference at the time. There probably is now a difference with rantanen deserving more.

Willy is at 13% of aav. I think we paid right at the top of his market. He probably could ask for 14% aav as a ufa based on his performance last year….. but that wasn’t what he was before.He has to be a 40 g 95-100 pt player.

Marner is better and has an argument for more. Unless he has an off year then they have 2 years as similar players

 

[keonsbitterness]

Marner earned his contract relative to his comparables. So did Tavares. So did Matthews on both contracts. So did Nylander on his first contract.
Only real questionable one relative to comparables is Nylander's current one.

Marner's agent specifically said that his comparables were his own teammates The rest of the league was irrelevant.

 

[Antropovsky]

Marner earned his contract relative to his comparables. So did Tavares. So did Matthews on both contracts. So did Nylander on his first contract.
Only real questionable one relative to comparables is Nylander's current one.

Let's look at a comparable who signed just before Marner:

Aho (Center) 2019 season
Regular season: 82 GP, 30 goals, 83 points, +25
Closest teammate points: 76, 53, 40
Playoffs: 15 GP, 5 goals, 12 points
Team stats: 245 goals for, 223 goals against
Contract: $8.454M x 5 years

Marner (Winger) 2019 season
Regular season: 82 GP, 26 goals, 96 points (+22)
Closest trammate points: 88, 73, 72
Playoffs: 7 GP, 2 goals, 4 points
Team stats: 286 goals for, 251 goals against
Contract: $10.983M x 6 years

Goals%
Aho played primarily on two lines, and their goal percentages were:

Niederreiter-Aho-Williams - 62.5%
Ferland-Aho-Teravainen - 66.7%
Marner played primarily on one line:
Hyman-Tavares-Marner - 57.8%

Why did Marner deserve 30% more than Aho?

• Aho had significantly less skilled linemates
• Both of Aho's lines were significantly more effective in goals%
• Aho played the more difficult position
• Aho scored more
• Aho produced more in the
• More Selke votes than Marner

 

[thewave]

Let's look at a comparable who signed just before Marner:

Aho (Center) 2019 season
Regular season: 82 GP, 30 goals, 83 points, +25
Closest teammate points: 76, 53, 40
Playoffs: 15 GP, 5 goals, 12 points
Team stats: 245 goals for, 223 goals against
Contract: $8.454M x 5 years

Marner (Winger) 2019 season
Regular season: 82 GP, 26 goals, 96 points (+22)
Closest trammate points: 88, 73, 72
Playoffs: 7 GP, 2 goals, 4 points
Team stats: 286 goals for, 251 goals against
Contract: $10.983M x 6 years

Goals%
Aho played primarily on two lines, and their goal percentages were:

Niederreiter-Aho-Williams - 62.5%
Ferland-Aho-Teravainen - 66.7%
Marner played primarily on one line:
Hyman-Tavares-Marner - 57.8%

Why did Marner deserve 30% more than Aho?

• Aho had significantly less skilled linemates
• Both of Aho's lines were significantly more effective in goals%
• Aho played the more difficult position
• Aho scored more
• Aho produced more in the
• More Selke votes than Marner

This is where Dekes ghosts you, says you're wrong or blames a tougher market to play in and internal comparables

How can anyone argue this. Actually he will probably say they underpaid.

 

[Antropovsky]

This is where Dekes ghosts you, says you're wrong or blames a tougher market to play in and internal comparables

How can anyone argue this. Actually he will probably say they underpaid.

They? It was an offersheet! That Aho and his agent pounced on. Meaning he and his agent thought it was much better than what Carolina was offering.

Dont forget the ridiculous signing bonus money Marner received either.

 

[notDatsyuk]

John Tavares was not an overpay. He was literally offered more Money other places.

He was a no 1 c and 2 time hart trophy finalist.

Tavares has a better ufa case than Marner. It’s not close.

He hasn’t aged as well sure. But he was not an over pay

I would say it was an overpay mainly in the sense that we were paying that for a player we knew was going to be a 2C. If we didn't have Matthews and knew that JT was going to be our 1C for the next 5 or 6 years, it wasn't an overpay.

That started the descent into madness. Our 1C (and better scorer) obviously had to be paid more, and our 1RW had to be paid the same. Then why wouldn't Nylander, with comparable production (or better if you consider goals as more important than assists) over the three seasons leading up to their contracts be worth comparable (actually less in terms of cap %)?

Speaking of a descent into madness, I think thats the definition of trying to discuss anything you do with Dubas with dekes.

 

[arso40]

There was no Marner overpay. There was a Nylander overpay, that was the result of Treliving, not Marner.

Are you ok Marner has never been worth 10.9 if your being honest with yourself you’d agree he’s never been worth within a million of Matthews at no point center and wing are two different positions as we can see with Willy

 

[HolyCrap]

Are you ok Marner has never been worth 10.9 if your being honest with yourself you’d agree he’s never been worth within a million of Matthews at no point center and wing are two different positions as we can see with Willy

You’re wasting your time. Ignore the trolls.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Marner did not. There is nothing to suggest that the was worth than rantanen. Even considering the bonuses that Lou cheated him out of.

Let's look at a comparable who signed just before Marner:
Aho (Center) 2019 season

Marner has never been worth 10.9 if your being honest with yourself you’d agree he’s never been worth within a million of Matthews at no point center and wing are two different positions as we can see with Willy

If you need help understanding why Marner was worth more than Rantanen/Aho, or how he compared to Matthews or the history of post-ELC contracts, you're welcome to read through one of the many in-depth comparisons I have already provided. Marner had the 6th best pre-signing period in the cap era, got the 10th biggest compensation, and then continued to earn the contract he got. We're kind of getting away from the point though; that Treliving is responsible for the contracts he signs, not Marner or anybody else.

 

[Gabriel426]

Of course, that is why we brought him in, and it’s why so many of us have been counting down the days To Keefe’s exit.

There is a big difference in thinking from fans. Many feel that scoring challenges in the playoffs means you need to go out and improve your scoring. That’s obviously not what the leafs did.

The challenge has been keeping pucks out. Our new system prioritizes structured D and discipline. This comes at the expense of offense, and management knows this. However, when offense in the playoffs is tough to come by, high end talent makes all the difference. Which is why getting rid of Marner makes very little sense, in my opinion.

It all comes down to playoff results, but it will be team results that really matter, not individual results.

Not like the Betas been playing structured Defence in the past playoffs and yet our talented Betas still can’t score.

Not saying you idea is wrong but at what point do we go, maybe our top guys are really just Betas instead of Alphas that can be count on.

One thing I know for sure is that over the past 8 years, no one team in the Finals had AM, MM, Willie or JT on their teams and yet they all managed to either get to the Finals and half of them Won the Cup.

 

[Antropovsky]

If you need help understanding why Marner was worth more than Rantanen/Aho, or how he compared to Matthews or the history of post-ELC contracts, you're welcome to read through one of the many in-depth comparisons I have already provided. Marner had the 6th best pre-signing period in the cap era, got the 10th biggest compensation, and then continued to earn the contract he got. We're kind of getting away from the point though; that Treliving is responsible for the contracts he signs, not Marner or anybody else.

What does 6th best presigning periods mean? 10th biggest first post ELC contracts in cap era? Who was ahead?

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Was he booed in the home opener?

 

[Dekes For Days]

What does 6th best presigning periods mean? 10th biggest first post ELC contracts?

The pre-signing period is the period up to the time of signing. And yes, the first contracts after an ELC.

 

[Nineteen67]

Was he booed in the home opener?

I watched it and no one was booed and no one was really cheered. Many of the podcasters mention the lack of enthusiasm by the fans on their shows over the weekend and today

 

[Antropovsky]

The pre-signing period is the period up to the time of signing. And yes, the first contracts after an ELC.

Who were the other 5, who were the other 9 from your indicated stats?

 

[thewave]

If you need help understanding why Marner was worth more than Rantanen/Aho, or how he compared to Matthews or the history of post-ELC contracts, you're welcome to read through one of the many in-depth comparisons I have already provided. Marner had the 6th best pre-signing period in the cap era, got the 10th biggest compensation, and then continued to earn the contract he got. We're kind of getting away from the point though; that Treliving is responsible for the contracts he signs, not Marner or anybody else.

Are you winging it for days now?

Can explain what this means and show examples of comparables and rationale?

 

[Legion34]

The pre-signing period is the period up to the time of signing. And yes, the first contracts after an ELC.

There is nothing to suggest that he was worth more than rantanen.

Rantanen had back to back 85 pts seasons. Marner had 60,60,94.

Rantanen had 80g 209 pts in 230 games
Marner had 67 g 224 pts in 241 games

Per 82 game Marner had 76 pts. Rantanen had 74.5.

Rant 32g pace. Marner 23.

There is no way Marner is worth 1.7 more.

Matthews had no comparable for 20 years. Marner did. He had a bigger stronger more goal scoring comparable in his year. 1.7 is a massive difference.

He got overpaid. It wasn’t the end of the world but reality is reality

 

[Maple Leaf]

S E L K E candidate
am i right?
that is what the marner camp thinks

 

[ACC1224]

Was he booed in the home opener?

Those in attendance said he and Matthews received a tremendous ovation as you’d expect.