Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part II

[Bomber0104]

You have any evidence to suggest they're lying?

Hitchens razor at its finest here.

The burden of proof rests on the person making the unsubstantiated claim.

A "professional student" would know this.

There are multiple avenues for them.to potentially find this information out

Then why didn't they cite them?

 

[Sonny21]

Dubas has to see that he is seen as a contract push over.

His career in the league won't last long as the leagues Agents keep punking him.

He is 0/2 with Melander and Matty.

Either he sends a league wide message with Melander and MM or i fear his tenure won't last long as a NHL GM.

This will be 2 years in a row that this roster of "never won a PO series" has to be thinned due to contract demands.

I don't disagree per se, but my question is do you think or believe Dubas would trade Marner?

i expect Dubas to move Melander for D help and then make a VERY firm stand on MM or move him also for D help.

I don't want 17m/18m cap tied up in 2 wingers and neither should KD.

Alright, that's what I wanted to know.

 

[SlpLessInMuskoka18]

JT had way more goals man.. Marner helped him. If babs wasn't such a cockblock.. and had a left-winger.. JT's assist totals would've been on par with his last Isles season too.

 

[Kiwi]

Marner helped him to a whopping 4 points more than he had the year before. Meanwhile, Marner jumped 25 points from last year. It's pretty clear who helped who the most.

Lol what?

You realize JT only scored 4 more points this season than he did last year?

I'm firmly in the good players make each other better camp but I'll be buggered if I know where the Marner is making his linemates vastly better narrative came from, I still haven't had anybody explain to me how that's actually happening

 

[Faltorvo]

Ok so I have a fun scenario.

Last year at the end of year presser, Dubas was asked about Offer sheets, and his quote made headlines as he said we were set up to either match anything or counter with offer sheets. He said it's part of the CBA and fair game.

If we assume his thinking hasn't changed, let's say..

Marner gets offer sheeted to something like 11 x 7 and it's too rich for the Leafs. They accept the 4 first rounders (assume they would be around 10-20 in an average year).

Leafs decline to match and accept the picks.

Then offer sheet Bryden Point for 10.5x5. Compensation is 2 firsts, 2nd, 3rd.

Tampa can't match, and if they do it guys their team. We lose two higher firsts, don't really down grade the roster, and gain 2 first round picks out of it.

Win / win. We screw over a division rival and shorten their window either way. Worse case scenario we lose Marner and only have cap space and 4 firsts. Best case we get 2 firsts + point for Marner.

1 hitch to your plan,,, IF a team is going to offer a 11 x 7 deal to a RFA

It's going to be to Point the center and not the winger.

 

[SlpLessInMuskoka18]

I can't wait to start the season with two 1st lines.. but I bet brownie gets promoted to Hymans spot up left wing on one of the top 2 lmao

 

[WTFMAN99]

lol. No context without Marner most of those minutes of JT where with Mathews,
Kadri after killing a penalty.

JT finished behind Marner in points. Obviously Marner help him more then JT help Marner. His stats for the last 40 games including playoffs were the same and that was with Kadri and Marleau.

Like others have said, JT had similar point totals with guys like Lee and Bailey on his wing. Marner exploded for 20-30 more points then he ever had before. Keep in mind scoring is up quite a lot this season too.

 

[Menzinger]

Hitchens razor at its finest here.

The burden of proof rests on the person making the unsubstantiated claim.

A "professional student" would know this.



Then why didn't they cite them?

A journalist writing an article for a publication has more legitimacy than an anonymous online commentator

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

I can't wait to start the season with two 1st lines.. but I bet brownie gets promoted to Hymans spot up left wing on one of the top 2 lmao

Head over to cap friendly and make an armchair GM Leafs team. I have a feeling you'll be less sure of Connor Brown taking a spot on any Leaf lines.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

I would trade Melander for help on D and send a message to MMs camp
and trade MM for more D if need be, if their demands will kill our cap.

screw these RFAs that have not won a damn thing.

kappy and AJ can play wing with the 2 stud Cs

Shouldn't we trade Metthews too? His contract might be the riches in the league.

 

[The CyNick]

This is all theory, I'm not an NHL GM but I'm fairly comfortable writing somebody like Marner being available would make a lot of defenseman we think aren't available very available

Just throw out a name for conversation sake. By the definition, there would be what? 15 guys in the league? I can't think of one who would be available.

 

[The CyNick]

I don't think he should pay for less, just not ask to be the highest paid winger in the game because he's not the best winger in the game, or more specifically, his age group. But we shall see what the ask is. Just not liking the tone of the public negotiations.

What about getting paid the same as the guys he put up more points than on the same team?

 

[Faltorvo]

Shouldn't we trade Metthews too? His contract might be the riches in the league.

Well if we are going to improve the defence in any meaningful manner

it will take meaningful assets out and

meaningful cap space made.

and i would rather use the 17m/18m wingers to make that happen then our strength at C.

 

[Kiwi]

Just throw out a name for conversation sake. By the definition, there would be what? 15 guys in the league? I can't think of one who would be available.

I'm not the Leafs GM so unless I become clarvoint I wouldn't have a clue who would be available for Marner, I do know that Marner is in his early 20's with a better than PPG season last year and 2 60 point seasons on his ECL

I can surmise he's one of the most valuable assets in the league right now and his return would reflect that, so somebody pretty bloody good

 

[nuck]

ya I could see a bridge happening, but I think if he wants to be paid like a 100pt center he needs to be a 100pt center, or quite a bit better than that as a winger. As good as he is, wingers don't have the same impact


when I ran it on capfriendly, we were a few hundred thousand above the cap if we traded Brown, signed Kapanen & Johnsson to bridge deals in the mid $2M's, used Dermott as a top 4D and filled the winger & bottom pair D spots with ELC guys from the Marlies and that included the relief from Horton. I think I had Marner at either $9.5M or $10M in that one, so I think if he holds out into the season we just won't have the space to sign him barring a big AAV guy getting injured


I think Panarin will get $10-11M, and he should actually be a guy to set the high water mark as a top-ish tier winger with UFA leverage. I guess there's been a trend towards paying guys earlier in their careers but I don't think it will come to guys making whatever they want just because they want to.

We'll see what Dubas does, he made a small concession to Nylander probably because he was the first of the three and thought that he might have a chance at a cup before the big contracts hit like Chicago did, he made a larger concession the Matthews who's really the straw that will stir the drink if this team is going to win cups, and Marner I think he's in a much better position because the team still has star power without him and the combo of picks & cap space would fill the void left by Marner if that's what it comes to

I agree that the step down from Marner to Skinner would be less appealing, but that's still a pretty good team and Skinner won't cost what Marner will so maybe that lets us bet on Johnsson for a longer term contract that may become a steal, plus the picks you get from Marner would probably give us better reinforcements to sustain the contention window. I'd live with this if it happened honestly Skinner at $8Mx7 years + 4 1sts for Marner wouldn't be a bad open market trade in my view

I would do 6 x $10.5 for Panarin easily and take the fours 1sts rather than pay the same money to Marner. Look at the team around him that he scored 87pts for, that's a monster win. Do we not think he would score more beside Tavares than beside Atkinson? Pat Kane is Marner's best case but PK is a better shooter so what is the realistic growth curve? I don't see any 120 pt seasons and I think Mitch will be challenged to ever have much more than a 30g season. It isn't unreasonable to expect Panarin to have more goals than Mitch every year.

MM is a really good player but he is a smallish winger who hasn't hit 30g. $10M is not an insult and when they start awarding victories for most assists I will be standing right behind him, but if his crew is setting their sights on the same overpayment AM got, I think the club really needs to seriously explore other options. The only reason we are having this discussion is because of Dubas on-the-job contract negotiation training. He has to put the brakes on at some point and you would hope he might at least have an idea what doesn't work by now. These are young primadonnas, not guys who are grinding their way up through Juniors and the AHL. I don't think he was prepared for the entitlement.

Having said all that, I want Mitch back at a fair contract.

 

[Stephen]

What about getting paid the same as the guys he put up more points than on the same team?

No, I wouldn't pay Marner at a Matthews or Tavares level. The reason I say this is because I think Matthews and Tavares could reasonably be expected to put up 90 points at any point in the near future, but Marner isn't going to reasonably give us the contributions of a big franchise center in his prime on a playoff run.

I'm not saying I'd lowball Marner but if the reports out there are true, I just think his "> Patrick Kane money" stance is something that approaches a zero sum game for Toronto.

If he's firm on those demands, I think the Leafs could move on from him, take the compensation, spend the money on another star RFA/UFA and still be right on track if not ahead.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Putting your needs ahead of someone or something else, for profit. I believe that's the exact definition of selfish.

This new generation of stars have more balls than the past Would you rather have the owners and the NHL be selfish, rather than the players being selfish?

I'm fine with players being called selfish then. 21-27 year old NHL players are the only ones that have to lower their worth when signing contracts, literally no other players in their prime/peak in other leagues do that. Pretty silly if you ask me.

 

[Nineteen67]

Wouldn’t it be a tad embarrassing for Marner to sign a $10+ million while the Cup finals are going on?

 

[AreBe]

Let's be Leafs! Let's see what young future Stanley Cup, Con Smyth and Norris Trophy winners we can drum out of town: Nylander, Kapanen, Johnsson and a couple of consecutive first round picks and some Swedes from the Marlies to soften the blow of the team taking Nylander off our hands, oh well!

Then we resign Mitch Marner

and bring in Patrick O'Thuggo! We can get him to play as our right handed defenseman! Surely you can see how Boston is beating St. Louis up with folding chairs and spraying them with fire extinguishers, and the refs are not calling it- surely, surely the Leafs would get the same deal from the refs, American TV interest in the American NHL awarding the American Stanley Cup notwithstanding, What do you mean Kadri would be suspended for his length of the ice long skate for a headhunting shot? If that were the case, then trading all that young promising talent for grizzled 40 year old O'Thuggo with torn ACLs- and Leafs fans know trading young promising talent for diminishing returns is a Leafs thing, would suddenly be a mistake, some Harold Ballard styled, self imposed hell!

But imagine if an idiot gave us 4 consecutive first round picks. Imagine him in an Edmonton Oilers uniform. Or an Ottawa Senators uniform. Ivan Svensky, 1st overall pick! Then the next year, what are the odds? Another Ivan Svensky first overall! And then the third year- Can you believe it, yet another Ivan Svensky! And the fourth year? Could it be the rookie of the year, again, and again a possible Conn Smyth winner? Another Ivan Svensky! And then, who do we sign as an unrestricted free agent, a player who really struggled, a player who might really benefit form playing on a line with 2 Svenskys? We bring back, as an unrestricted free agent, Mitch Marner!

 

[kb]

Now do goal scoring, since guys get a premium for goals and the position they play

Easier to take a defined limit that paints your homeboy in the best possible light.

Lol what?

You realize JT only scored 4 more points this season than he did last year?

He's delusional at best, but this runs deeper.

 

[kb]

I'm firmly in the good players make each other better camp but I'll be buggered if I know where the Marner is making his linemates vastly better narrative came from, I still haven't had anybody explain to me how that's actually happening

It hasn't happened except in the minds of the few.

 

[Faltorvo]

This new generation of stars have more balls than the past Would you rather have the owners and the NHL be selfish, rather than the players being selfish?

I'm fine with players being called selfish then. 21-27 year old NHL players are the only ones that have to lower their worth when signing contracts, literally no other players in their prime/peak in other leagues do that. Pretty silly if you ask me.

I truly do not understand what you are trying to say here?

There is a hard cap,,this has nothing to do AT ALL with the owners trying to be selfish

This has everything to do with building a cup contender IN that hard cap.

and having a roster full of selfish players will never ever sip from the cup,,FULL STOP.

 

[Erndog]

Wouldn’t it be a tad embarrassing for Marner to sign a $10+ million while the Cup finals are going on?

Why?

 

[AreBe]

I truly do not understand what you are trying to say here?

There is a hard cap,,this has nothing to do AT ALL with the owners trying to be selfish

This has everything to do with building a cup contender IN that hard cap.

and having a roster full of selfish players will never ever sip from the cup,,FULL STOP.

why should a player be poorer?

Why should a player not be able to say, "I prefer the softer ride of my Maserati over the firmness of my Porsche, but no doubt, the Aston Martin is my favourite car that I have" to a cop?

Who are we to dictate what is too much money for them? Let them make as much as they see fit to make! Salary cap expanding like crazy, and of that I would like to be your assurer.

What's wrong with players intelligently talking about wine like rock stars do? What's wrong with them making a considered decision and ordering a Puliac and not a Saint Emilion with their meal? In my view, that is not off the top

 

[Nineteen67]

Why?

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