Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion XX - The Dog Days of August V3

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zeke

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Malkin won awards; yes he was playing behind crosby that should be factored in - but purely based on one to one comparison Malkin's seasonsin ELC periods were way better than Matthews.

The only reason malkin's ELC stats looked better is because he received over two and a half times as much PP time, and that PP time came with Sidney Crosby. The reality is that Malkin Ha e a much much smaller role than Matthews at even strength, always either sheltered behind the best center in the league or playing on his wing.

I have to calculate these by hand so unfortunately they include empty net points and I can't filter out primary points...

Age 20-21 (Malkin didn't play at 19)

Even Strength

EM: 160gm, 14:15, 47gls, 111pts, .29gpg, .69ppg, 1.24g60, 2.92p60
AM: 130gm, 15:57, 54gls, 103pts, .42gpg, .79ppg, 1.56g60, 2.98p60

Power Play

EM: 160gms, 5:23, 33gls, 80pts, .21gpg, .50ppg, 2.30g60, 5.57p60
AM: 130gms, 2:22, 17gls, 33pts, .13gpg, .25ppg, 3.32g60, 6.44p60
 
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IPS

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your argument is filled with flaws and does not account different era of hockey, different rules in hockey now vs then; any point you are trying to make in regards to matthews vs malkin is filled with biases.

Malkin ELC period >> Matthews ELC period

a blind man can see that. Your understanding of how to analyze data and process it appropriately without any biases seems to be very limited and you are not able to distinguish between achievements then vs now while trying to make apples to apples comparison; because it is not.
What, you don't think Mitch Marner is a better ES scorer than prime Crosby and Malkin?!?!

Hell even Crosby today is a better ES scorer than he was in his prime! How bout that!? Past his prime yet he's getting even better at scoring at ES. What a time we live in.
 

zeke

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Ill agree to a point. The repeatability of goals vs primary assists arent hugely different though. Primary assists are a great indicator of skill. Secondary assists are more a function of deployment...for a forward. Nothing is really absolute in this game though. JVR scored a bunch of goals in a sheltered role.

Absolutely.

The good news with these Leafs comps is that Matthews has not been sheltered much at all and Marner only a bit.
 

Throw More Waffles

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that is true Leafs can use the LTIR right now and sign Marner but the max they will be able to spend is 89.65 million; 89.65 million is the magic number in the off-season.

Max Leafs can spend right now is 89.65M (including full LTIR releaf of 10.5M) yes they can sign marner now but the max number is 89.65M

If Leafs wait till the season opener the max they can spend in 92M 81.5 cap ceiling + 10.5 LTIR releaf = 92M

there is an additional cap flexibility of around 2.5M that leafs gain by waiting till the season begins.

Scenario:
Leafs current cap hit is 84M (with 3M LTIR used i.e. they have around 7.5 more LTIR they can use)

Lets say Leafs sign Marner now at 10AAV in the off-season

cap hit goes to 84 + 10 = 94 million (use the remaining 7.5 LTIR)

94-7.5 = 86.5M < 89.65M (allowed overage of 10%)

now by doing this Leafs max spending would be only around 86.5M in total for the rest of the season i.e. the max they could spend is 86.5M for the entire season because they have used the LTIR relief already;

but by waiting till the season starts and being close to the ceiling 81.5M (not including Marner) say 22 man roster; they gain cap flexibility more than 86.5M

The magic number for the Leafs for cap flexibility IMO is 92M

So there is a 10% overage in the offseason. Does that include players added to ltir?

Or are you saying there is absolutely no cap relief from adding a player to ltir in the offseason? It's 10% overage, regardless of anyone being on ltir or not.
 

zeke

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Remember when I said I didn't believe you?

Still there.

Again, I seem to remember you being all about corsi and fenwick and stuff back then. Thus proving my ongoing theory... whatever stats the CURRENT leafs are good at, are the flavour of the month for you.

But those leafs sucked by corsi.

I did argue that certain guys on the leafs - like Kessel and Rielly, were being underrated by corsi thanks to extremely tough usage (and guys like Gardiner overrated), and I like to think I've been proven right about that.
 
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PromisedLand

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The only reason malkin's ELC stats looked better is because he received over two and a half times as much PP time, and that PP time came with Sidney Crosby. The reality is that Malkin Ha e a much much smaller role than Matthews at even strength, always either sheltered behind the best center in the league or playing on his wing.

I have to calculate these by hand so unfortunately they include empty net points and I can't filter out primary points...

Age 20-21 (Malkin didn't play at 19)

Even Strength

EM: 160gm, 14:15, 47gls, 111pts, .29gpg, .69ppg, 1.24g60, 2.92p60
AM: 130gm, 15:57, 54gls, 103pts, .42gpg, .79ppg, 1.56g60, 2.98p60

Power Play

EM: 160gms, 5:23, 33gls, 80pts, .21gpg, .50ppg, 2.30g60, 5.57p60
AM: 130gms, 2:22, 17gls, 33pts, .13gpg, .25ppg, 3.32g60, 6.44p60

quite frankly your ability to analyze data has been suspect so i don't take any of your posts that outline numbers as good.

second, PP production is part of production one should not separate PP production because PP scoring has impact on the outcome of the games.

comparing ev strength production from different eras when it was harder to score because of different NHL rules, bigger goalie equipment and less room behind the net versus now is suspect to begin with. same applies to PP production.

second, scoring on PP is a skill; not able to score on PP it not a positive from not only personal but team success POV
 

PromisedLand

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What, you don't think Mitch Marner is a better ES scorer than prime Crosby and Malkin?!?!

Hell even Crosby today is a better ES scorer than he was in his prime! How bout that!? Past his prime yet he's getting even better at scoring at ES. What a time we live in.

:laugh:

come on man really? lol ;)
 

PromisedLand

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So there is a 10% overage in the offseason. Does that include players added to ltir?

Or are you saying there is absolutely no cap relief from adding a player to ltir in the offseason? It's 10% overage, regardless of anyone being on ltir or not.

there is cap relief by adding LTIR in the off-season but the maximum team can go is 89.65M (10% overage allowed) but that changes when the season starts where the team can go to the maximum of

cap hit (at that time) + LTIR relief = allowable spending that year

in short leafs can go

cap ceiling (81.5M) + LTIR (10.5M) = 92M > 89.65M (allowed 10% overage in the offseason)

My whole spiel is based on the explanations provided by cap friendly at the following link:
LTIR FAQ - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
 

zeke

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quite frankly your ability to analyze data has been suspect so i don't take any of your posts that outline numbers as good.

Ok. For the record, everybody really respects your ability to analyze the game and the data.

second, PP production is part of production one should not separate PP production because PP scoring has impact on the outcome of the games.

I didn't say "remove", I said "separate". The reasons for that separation are too obvious to even argue about.

comparing ev strength production from different eras when it was harder to score because of different NHL rules, bigger goalie equipment and less room behind the net versus now is suspect to begin with. same applies to PP production.

That is fair. Do you have the league scoring rates at ES to compare?

(Note that Auston Matthews ranks in the top 5s of the p60 rates today, and ranks are obviously indexed to league scoring rates.)


second, scoring on PP is a skill; not able to score on PP it not a positive from not only personal but team success POV

Absolutely. And in this case, Matthews is also a super elite PP producer (top 10 in the league).
 

IPS

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:laugh:

come on man really? lol ;)

Yeah I haven't really been big on comparisons from one era to another since day 1. And I'm definitely not convinced that Matthews = Malkin.

If you want to make Matthews' contract look passable, you need to be using Eichel and McDavid. Those are what you work with, not Malkin from freaking 10+ years ago.

My hopes are hinged on what Matthews can do without Babcock as coach. I think he's got an untapped level to him.
 
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Throw More Waffles

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there is cap relief by adding LTIR in the off-season but the maximum team can go is 89.65M (10% overage allowed) but that changes when the season starts where the team can go to the maximum of

cap hit (at that time) + LTIR relief = allowable spending that year

in short leafs can go

cap ceiling (81.5M) + LTIR (10.5M) = 92M > 89.65M (allowed 10% overage in the offseason)

My whole spiel is based on the explanations provided by cap friendly at the following link:
LTIR FAQ - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
But, in the offseason, can't the leafs go 89.65 million, plus the extra 10.5 million ltir relief of Horton/Clarkson?
 

PromisedLand

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Yeah I haven't really been big on comparisons from one era to another since day 1. And I'm definitely not convinced that Matthews = Malkin.

If you want to make Matthews' contract look passable, you need to be using Eichel and McDavid. Those are what you work with, not Malkin from freaking 10+ years ago.

My hopes are hinged on what Matthews can do without Babcock as coach. I think he's got an untapped level to him.

It is absolutely STUPID to compare Malkin's production then to Matthews' production now. There isn't apples to apples comparison

- Goalie Equipment change
- More room behind the net now
- Better hockey sticks now
- icing rules have changed
- clutch and grab then (i.e. not easier to score) versus penalties called now

Malkin was a beast; if Malkin had debuted in today's NHL with today's NHL rules Malkin would have blown his competition out of the park.

Malkin's production in ELC > Matthews production in ELC one cannot even compare. It is absolutely stupid to compare them.

Only thing one could potentially claim is that Malkin played behind Crosby other than that there is no claim; copying and pasting the stats without really understanding the nuances of the data is f***ing stupid.
 
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Suntouchable13

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Yeah I haven't really been big on comparisons from one era to another since day 1. And I'm definitely not convinced that Matthews = Malkin.

If you want to make Matthews' contract look passable, you need to be using Eichel and McDavid. Those are what you work with, not Malkin from freaking 10+ years ago.

My hopes are hinged on what Matthews can do without Babcock as coach. I think he's got an untapped level to him.

Yea, well I am not convinced that Marner = Kane either, yet he still wants a higher cap % than what Kane got out of his elc. Salaries are out of control again, IMO.
 

PromisedLand

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Ok. For the record, everybody really respects your ability to analyze the game and the data.



I didn't say "remove", I said "separate". The reasons for that separation are too obvious to even argue about.



That is fair. Do you have the league scoring rates at ES to compare?

(Note that Auston Matthews ranks in the top 5s of the p60 rates today, and ranks are obviously indexed to league scoring rates.)




Absolutely. And in this case, Matthews is also a super elite PP producer (top 10 in the league).

lol google Anscombe's quartet; understand what it means before copying and pasting data from naturalstatrik or puckanalytics
 
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BoredBrandonPridham

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does not account different era of hockey, different rules in hockey now vs then;

Pro tip: The best way to account for production in 2006 and production in 2019 is to account for the amount of PP time.

Your argument for Malkin being more effective offensively is not as strong as you make it out to be. You nice you take into consideration PP time Matthews produces more primary points.
 

hfman

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Santa is coming guys.

He's bringing Marner, all wrapped up with a bow on top
 

zeke

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Hell even Crosby today is a better ES scorer than he was in his prime! How bout that!? Past his prime yet he's getting even better at scoring at ES. What a time we live in.

Crosby/60

08: 3.06p, 2.58p1
09: 2.93p, 2.42p1
10: 3.32p, 2.79p1
11: 3.96p, 3.21p1
12: 4.64p, 3.48p1
13: 4.07p, 3.20p1

14: 2.52p, 2.02p1
15: 2.41p, 1.80p1
16: 2.54p, 1.98p1
17: 2.90p, 2.44p1
18: 1.87p, 1.37p2
19: 2.92p, 2.46p1

Nowhere near his peak rates, unfortunately.

Malkin:

08: 2.85p, 2.29p1
09: 2.94p, 2.33p1
10: 2.38p, 1.79p1
11: 2.07p, 1.38p1
12: 3.43p, 2.98p1
13: 1.83p, 1.31p1
14: 2.53p, 2.06p1
15: 2.39p, 1.81p1
16: 1.92p, 1.71p1
17: 3.04p, 1.78p1
18: 2.58p, 2.26p1
19: 2.53p, 1.92p1
 

PromisedLand

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But, in the offseason, can't the leafs go 89.65 million, plus the extra 10.5 million ltir relief of Horton/Clarkson?

according to the explanations from cap friendly they can but then they will have to be cap compliant by the time season starts LTIR and ACSL are re-calculated.

ACSL = Salary cap upper limit - team cap space

at the moment for leafs it is:
81.5 - 0= 81.5M + 10% offseason cushion = 89.65M

Max overage allowed is 89.65M right now they can exceed it by spending around 8M more at max; Leafs are currently showing around 84M in projected cap hit on cap friendly

I could be wrong here but my understanding is that offseason spending overage allowed for 86.95M (10%) includes LTIR; if it doesn't then it really doesn't matter whether leafs sign marner now or later as it will end being the same exceed limit allowed.

But the catch is that the leafs have to be close to the upper limit of 81.5M when the season starts to fully exercise the max they can spend which is around 92M.

If the Leafs are below 81.5M in cap hit they won't be able to maximize their spending of 92M; and if they are above it they will have to either trade (or bury) few contracts.

My whole thinking is based around the fact that if the 22 man roster by the time season starts is around 81.5M then leafs can spend 10.5M for Marner and hit 92 million mark

If Leafs sign Marner now and lets say their 23 man roster is less than 81.5M they will not be able to maximize their spending potential as they might not be able to use full 10.5 LTIR relief and if it is above (which it definitely will be) leafs are gonna have to make some moves.

Suppose Leafs are able to go over the 10% overage using LTIR i.e. 89.65+10.5 around 100M

by the time season starts Leafs will have to be cap compliant for 81.5M + 10.5 = 92M (max) allowed; that means Leafs will have to bury 8 million somewhere that is a hard thing to do.

At the moment Leafs show

84M cap hit (cap friendly) with a 23 man roster (not including Marner, Hyman, Dermott, Clarkson, Horton) and they are already at 48 contracts

Toronto Maple Leafs - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps


Leafs 2 way contracts are as follows:
Two-Way Contracts
Frederik Gauthier675,000
Travis Dermott863,333
Ilya Mikheyev925,000
Egor Korshkov925,000
Pierre Engvall925,000
Jeremy Bracco842,500
Semyon Der Arguchintsev783,333
Mason Marchment767,500
Adam Brooks759,167
Dmytro Timashov694,444
Rasmus Sandin894,167
Timothy Liljegren863,333
Joe Duszak800,000
Mac Hollowell799,766
Teemu Kivihalme792,500
Jesper Lindgren775,833
Aaron Luchuk759,166
Andreas Borgman700,000
Ian Scott805,833
Joseph Woll800,000
Kasimir Kaskisuo675,000
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
The bolded ones technically speaking can be buried as they are expected to start on the roster (2.5M bolded ones) other than that all of them are one way contracts that at present are listed in the 23 man roster (not including marner)

So if one does the math

leafs currently 84M - 2.5M (burried) = 81.5M right at the ceiling which will alow them to exercise the full 92M cap hit; but as soon as they start calling (which they will-> Dermott + Mikheyev) leafs are gonna be above the cap if Leafs give Marner 10.5AAV.

Sure one can argue that there is some LTIR relief from Hyman and Dermott that can be used (Dermott doesn't have to be buried) but then the transactions get really freakin' complicated.

Idea is to be around 81.5 cap ceiling (with the contracts) at the start of the season before leafs use full LTIR releif of Clarkson and Horton to maximize spending.
 
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PromisedLand

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Pro tip: The best way to account for production in 2006 and production in 2019 is to account for the amount of PP time.

Your argument for Malkin being more effective offensively is not as strong as you make it out to be. You nice you take into consideration PP time Matthews produces more primary points.

This is the most inaccurate way of portraying proper comparisons. This is more like an amateur tip than a pro tip
 

PromisedLand

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Ok bud, no real come back. Sorry for embarrassing you.

you keep on comparing malkin and matthews while i have already pointed out that the comparison cannot be done one to one because of different eras, different goalie equipment and different NHL rules.
it was more harder to score in that era versus now but you keep on repeating the same BS.

here is a pro tip for you. Repeating BS again and again doesn't make it true; it is still BS
 

PromisedLand

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With absolutely nothing to back it up.

unlike some morons posts that keep posting numbers without understanding strengths and weaknesses of the said numbers I could have posted the graph below to prove my point

GgGbB9sa6yTEEigjabE0mO9o8U5BOeQDBydrujTCK8E.png


FYI Malkin is 6th overall according to this chart of era adjusted scoring

but because this chart doesn't outline how these numbers are calculated and what is the model I refuse to believe in it.

Similarly the stupidity of your ever repeating jargon regarding points production and ridiculous comparison between malkin and matthews without understanding the context and different rules/equipment between Malkin ELCs and Matthews ELC years you keep posting the same BS; I call it BS

if your so called analysis was presented on an academic forum that would be laughed at and ridiculed much more brutally than my rebuttals here

and to udnerstand why different eras matter perhaps you might want to read the following article
Ovechkin closer to Gretzky's goal record with era-adjusted scoring

Knowledge is power, BS is BS. Which one do you choose? Knowledge or BS?
 
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