Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XIV

[ACC1224]

They can match as long as Marner contract does not put them over 10% over CAP anytime before October 1st. We had established that fact. What I was asking is assuming they can't get back by October 1st then what happens to existing contracts?

Got it.
Not sure.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

They can match as long as Marner contract does not put them over 10% over CAP anytime before October 1st. We had established that fact. What I was asking is assuming they can't get back by October 1st then what happens to existing contracts?

1 guy was sure that with Dermott and Hyman on IR and Horton's 5.3M we could play with Marner up to 12.3M AAV to start season with a 23 man roster. but at some point when injured guys return we had to unload contracts to minors and lose guys to waivers to get back to CAP. Like maybe 4 guys in minors or lost in waivers and we play with 19 men. but after those moves get made can league force a contract off the books?

 

[ULF_55]

I would be pretty netural about Marner being traded straight up for Aho, Point, Rantanen, or Barzal. Pettersson I'm not sure about yet (only played one year and injury concerns). Werenski, no way.

It's not that I would want those trades to happen. But those are comparable players, and there's no real loss or gain from such a trade.

Let's see which of those players gm's is competent.

Regardless of the method, Carolina has Aho for 8.5x5.
Let's see what Dubas can do.

I know 'Canes are so happy Aho signed such a reasonable contract.

Kind of makes you think AHO would have been fining leaving, and I'm just guessing but I bet tax implications in Montreal would be much worse. (been almost 4 decades since I've deal with Quebec taxable rates)

 

[Throw More Waffles]

While right now I agree the Matthews deal should have been longer, I think we have to wait and see if the market has changed, and that the very top players are going shorter term going forward.

If it's a shorter term going forward, it will be at lower aav's. Like Aho.

I acknowledge that Matthews is better than Aho. But by how much?
Final elc years:
Aho: 30 goals/83 points 1.01 ppg
Matthews: 37 goals/73 points 1.07 ppg

Matthews production is only slightly better. Sure, he scores more goals... but I'm told in regards to Marner and his comparables that goals don't matter any more than points. And i DEMAND consistency on that.

Based on those numbers above... is Matthews really worth three million more per year?

If we're paying these guys as elite players, are we ever going to actually see elite production?

 

[Guided by Veseys]

How much room do we have?
Based on Aho I think at most he is worth 9.5 RFA with monster signing bonus.
If they sign him at 6x10 that basically giving one UFA year 12.5M on the year. That seems fair. Not sure how much he is valuing his UFA years at but looks like he doesn’t want to be underpaid for even a single one.

 

[Notsince67]

Same guy, two statements: "Marner ain't worth more than Aho".

"Trade him for Anderson and Jones and be done with it".

Interesting.

Telling

 

[BlueForever75]

So Paul Marner was spoken to by Uncle Lou for opening a website to sell his sons merch!!!!

Paul Marner always thought his son was better then McDavid!!!!

Now Paul Marner wants McDavid money for his son!!!!!

Sorry guys and gals if you don't see the writing on the wall, I will explain it to you. Marner will become a cancer in the Leafs organization if they don't rid themselves of him now. Him and his dad were already warned once by Uncle Lou that he isn't bigger then the team, and if he thought so he wouldn't be part of it. It is continuing now and it will forever be this way as long as Marner is a Leaf.

Get rid of him now that his value is high. Leafs don't need him.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

True but how much of the capspace would have been taken up had ovi not signed for 13 years and Crosby at 12? They would have likely been signed at league maximums. The 8 year limit change gave those teams advantages. Should the league change again to a 5 year max term, the leafs will be disadvantaged yet again. This is one of Dubas' biggest blunders. He should have set the ceiling with Matthews last summer with an 11 to 11.5 x 8 contract and an 8.5 to 9 mm x 8 contract with Marner. Nylander could have sat if he didnt like 6.5 x 8 or taken a bridge.

Dubas can't even get any of his stars to sign for 8 years... let alone 12 or 13 years.
So I'm not really sure if that factors into anything.

 

[ULF_55]

If it's a shorter term going forward, it will be at lower aav's. Like Aho.

I acknowledge that Matthews is better than Aho. But by how much?
Final elc years:
Aho: 30 goals/83 points 1.01 ppg
Matthews: 37 goals/73 points 1.07 ppg

Matthews production is only slightly better. Sure, he scores more goals... but I'm told in regards to Marner and his comparables that goals don't matter any more than points. And i DEMAND consistency on that.

Based on those numbers above... is Matthews really worth three million more per year?

If we're paying these guys as elite players, are we ever going to actually see elite production?

Do you remember, was it Belak who said goals are worth 2 points and assists 1?

We all had a few chuckles about that here.

20 goals, 60 assist = 100 points

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Do you remember, was it Belak who said goals are worth 2 points and assists 1?

We all had a few chuckles about that here.

20 goals, 60 assist = 100 points

Yep, it was Belak. Funny skit.

 

[ToneDog]

If Rantanen gets 10.5 to 11mm it is game over for Dubas

Rantanen is waiting for Mitch to be overpaid before he negotiates with Sakic. Dubas should be so lucky to have Rantanen or any other comparable RFA for that matter, sign first.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Same guy, two statements: "Marner ain't worth more than Aho".

"Trade him for Anderson and Jones and be done with it".

Interesting.

Yeah I was completely serious....

 

[JT AM da real deal]

So Paul Marner was spoken to by Uncle Lou for opening a website to sell his sons merch!!!!

Paul Marner always thought his son was better then McDavid!!!!

Now Paul Marner wants McDavid money for his son!!!!!

Sorry guys and gals if you don't see the writing on the wall, I will explain it to you. Marner will become a cancer in the Leafs organization if they don't rid themselves of him now. Him and his dad were already warned once by Uncle Lou that he isn't bigger then the team, and if he thought so he wouldn't be part of it. It is continuing now and it will forever be this way as long as Marner is a Leaf.

Get rid of him now that his value is high. Leafs don't need him.

Paul never has never said that. I know it is easy to say that in times like now where he is trying to get best deal for his kid. If you know the age group well and were at the spring/summer tournaments over the years you will know that Mitch never beat McJesus or Matty or their teams EVER. In fact it was never even close games. and even when Matty and Mitch played up an age group in spring games against McJesus McJesus and Matty were 2 best players on the ice. Paul may think it but it was never a reality in any of the games played on the ice.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Rantanen is waiting for Mitch to be overpaid before he negotiates with Sakic. Dubas should be so lucky to have Rantanen or any other comparable RFA for that matter, sign first.

Doesn't that say a lot about Dubas' reputation at the moment?

None of the other players will even negotiate until Dubas changes the market again with a Marner overpayment?

 

[ACC1224]

So Paul Marner was spoken to by Uncle Lou for opening a website to sell his sons merch!!!!

Paul Marner always thought his son was better then McDavid!!!!

Now Paul Marner wants McDavid money for his son!!!!!

Sorry guys and gals if you don't see the writing on the wall, I will explain it to you. Marner will become a cancer in the Leafs organization if they don't rid themselves of him now. Him and his dad were already warned once by Uncle Lou that he isn't bigger then the team, and if he thought so he wouldn't be part of it. It is continuing now and it will forever be this way as long as Marner is a Leaf.

Get rid of him now that his value is high. Leafs don't need him.

How many threads are you going to keep posting this garbage in?

 

[Mr Hockey]

Same guy, two statements: "Marner ain't worth more than Aho".

"Trade him for Anderson and Jones and be done with it".

Interesting.

I'm not sure CBJ trade Seth Jones even up for Mitch, Jones is going to win a Norris soon

 

[SeaOfBlue]

If it's a shorter term going forward, it will be at lower aav's. Like Aho.

I acknowledge that Matthews is better than Aho. But by how much?
Final elc years:
Aho: 30 goals/83 points 1.01 ppg
Matthews: 37 goals/73 points 1.07 ppg

Matthews production is only slightly better. Sure, he scores more goals... but I'm told in regards to Marner and his comparables that goals don't matter any more than points. And i DEMAND consistency on that.

Based on those numbers above... is Matthews really worth three million more per year?

If we're paying these guys as elite players, are we ever going to actually see elite production?

Remember that Aho also did that with an extra 1:30 per game of ice time over Matthews, which given the # of games Aho played and the amount of ice time he gets on average, is an extra 6 games. That makes his PPG a 0.94 vs. 1.07 for Matthews.

Aho also had 50 more minutes of PP time than Matthews over their first two seasons (I am sure he eclipsed Matthews again this year, but I don't have the exact TOI #'s). That also inflates his numbers a little bit too.

Matthews also has the added benefit of being a lot better at faceoffs (which are important for elite centers) and being the best ES goal scorer in his generation.

So to answer your question, Matthew really is worth 3 mill more per year than Aho. And since this is a Marner thread, he's worth at least 2 mill more than Marner too.

 

[Sypher04]

1 guy was sure that with Dermott and Hyman on IR and Horton's 5.3M we could play with Marner up to 12.3M AAV to start season with a 23 man roster. but at some point when injured guys return we had to unload contracts to minors and lose guys to waivers to get back to CAP. Like maybe 4 guys in minors or lost in waivers and we play with 19 men. but after those moves get made can league force a contract off the books?

Mitch really needs to sign prior the season start. Say things stayed as they are right now and we have roughly speaking 3.8 million in cap space. When the season starts we have two options with Horton.

1) we put him on LTIR as he would be going, but because we aren't up close to the cap the amount we can exceed the cap would not be what is should be. 5.3 - 3.8 means we only effectively get 1.5 million in cap relief. Space we badly need to fit Marner's coming salary.

Or

2) we don't put Horton on LTIR yet, but he costs us per day against our cap which is also bad news for us.

It's not absolutely imperative that its by October 2nd but it gets much more complicated to fit him as we pass that date. A fact I'm sure his camp is very aware of

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Yeah I was completely serious....

On which statement?

 

[Sypher04]

Doesn't that say a lot about Dubas' reputation at the moment?

None of the other players will even negotiate until Dubas changes the market again with a Marner overpayment?

Not really? Most everything said here is pure conjecture. Certainly the idea that all other RFA signings are waiting on Marner. More likely instead that just no one wants to go first

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Remember that Aho also did that with an extra 1:30 per game of ice time over Matthews, which given the # of games Aho played and the amount of ice time he gets on average, is an extra 6 games. That makes his PPG a 0.94 vs. 1.07 for Matthews.

Aho also had 50 more minutes of PP time than Matthews over their first two seasons (I am sure he eclipsed Matthews again this year, but I don't have the exact TOI #'s). That also inflates his numbers a little bit too.

Matthews also has the added benefit of being a lot better at faceoffs (which are important for elite centers) and being the best ES goal scorer in his generation.

So to answer your question, Matthew really is worth 3 mill more per year than Aho. And since this is a Marner thread, he's worth at least 2 mill more than Marner too.

Why did goal totals count in comparison when you just wrote of Matthews and Aho, but aren't a consideration for Marner and his comparables?

But regardless, ENOUGH of this.

I don't care what needs to change.

I don't care if it's the players, the gm, the coach. I don't care anymore.

The leafs can NO LONGER pay FAR more money than other teams do for similar production. I don't CARE about 5v5 short handed goals/60 and other such nonsense. The leafs need to STOP paying a premium on REAL points. To STOP paying 70 point players as though they score 120.

Again, if that change is on the coach, then so be it. But ENOUGH of paying WAY more money for similar real point production.

 

[Notsince67]

Remember that Aho also did that with an extra 1:30 per game of ice time over Matthews, which given the # of games Aho played and the amount of ice time he gets on average, is an extra 6 games. That makes his PPG a 0.94 vs. 1.07 for Matthews.

Aho also had 50 more minutes of PP time than Matthews over their first two seasons (I am sure he eclipsed Matthews again this year, but I don't have the exact TOI #'s). That also inflates his numbers a little bit too.

Matthews also has the added benefit of being a lot better at faceoffs (which are important for elite centers) and being the best ES goal scorer in his generation.

So to answer your question, Matthew really is worth 3 mill more per year than Aho. And since this is a Marner thread, he's worth at least 2 mill more than Marner too.

Faceoffs again? They are largely irrelevant except on the PK and the PP...where Matthews does not take faceoffs. Then we can talk about ppg comparisons this year between Mathews and Marner

 

[Sypher04]

Faceoffs again? They are largely irrelevant except on the PK and the PP...where Matthews does not take faceoffs. Then we can talk about ppg comparisons this year between Mathews and Marner

I fail to see how starting with the puck isn't important.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

Trade him for Anderson and Jones and be done with it

have you been indulging by chance when you wrote this? Jones by himself would be a tough sell to Columbus...add in Anderson and Dubas would literally have taken Karmolainen's (I think that's his name) job as well as literally committed highway robbery on an astronomical level...I love Marner but Jones AND Anderson...he'd get laughed off the phone

 

[shakes]

Doesn't that say a lot about Dubas' reputation at the moment?

None of the other players will even negotiate until Dubas changes the market again with a Marner overpayment?

No, it doesn't say anything about his reputation. You have no idea why they haven't signed. Why does it have to be they are waiting on Marner? Why not Point? Why not Laine?