Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XIII

[Marshy]

He got paid for lost time.

A none issue - most NHLers woud rather be playing hockey than sitting at home.

7.5M was never going to be offered before Dec 1 by Dubas though to get 7.5M Nylander had to wait until he'd missed enough time to bring his Cap hit < 7M a year. He could have got his 42M right away on Oct 2nd if he wanted to. His choice to miss 60 days of playing to get it. Ruined his season.

 

[Chris18820]

Even more confusing, CapFriendly lists Nylanders total salary over his contract as $45,000,000 but the McKenzie tweet they link to says that he makes $41,770,000 over six years. I was told over and over again on this board that Nylander is actually making $7.5 million a year and that that's the number we should be focusing on rather than $6.9.

He is actually making 7.5 per season.
(2/3) of season 18/19 x $7.5 million + 5 years x $7.5 million = $41.77 mill

 

[Semantics]

People like Bob MacKenzie have already said publicly the Leafs do not have the cap flexibility to what they did with Nylander. So, I'd say he will be signed prior to season start

Bob McKenzie is a reporter. He's way out of his element trying to understand contracts and math.

 

[Marshy]

He is actually making 7.5 per season.
(2/3) of season 18/19 x $7.5 million + 5 years x $7.5 million = $41.77 mill

Both parties got what they wanted. Willy got his $7.5M salary and Dubas got his sub $7M cap hit.

Willy also got a 2 month vacation. (Unpaid)

 

[Joey Hoser]

Bob McKenzie is a reporter. He's way out of his element trying to understand contracts and math.

All you have to do is look at Capfriendly to see they can't do that now, unless they do something else to make room for it.

 

[Semantics]

McKenzie states it as fact and even names teams that can no longer be trade partners because of the cap inflation. He was carrying on this theme for weeks. This is just brutal journalism if all he said is false. Unforgivable levels of incompetence.

Ask yourself what would be the purpose of this so-called cap inflation that supposedly only screws over teams. There's no reason for that to exist, which tells you right there that this is wrong information.

As has been said 50 times in this thread, cap hit is calculated DAILY. A 10M cap hit for 3 months is equivalent to a 5M cap hit for 6 months. Nylander's daily cap hit was higher because he signed later in the season, but his cap hit was ZERO for the two months he sat out, so the Leafs were just banking that cap space in the meantime.

It would only be a problem if the Leafs spent to the cap while Nylander was holding out instead of banking the salary, then dumped salary to sign him. It would also be a problem if they tried to trade him to a team that had been up against the cap all year.

The Leafs have a small issue in that Horton's contract will waste some of the cap until Marner signs (as well as Dermott and Hyman's replacement while they're out), but Horton's cap hit is a lot less than what Marner will get so they should be able to maneuver around that.

This really isn't rocket science, it's just common sense.

 

[socko]

Ask yourself what would be the purpose of this so-called cap inflation that supposedly only screws over teams. There's no reason for that to exist, which tells you right there that this is wrong information.

As has been said 50 times in this thread, cap hit is calculated DAILY. A 10M cap hit for 3 months is equivalent to a 5M cap hit for 6 months. Nylander's daily cap hit was higher because he signed later in the season, but his cap hit was ZERO for the two months he sat out, so the Leafs were just banking that cap space in the meantime.

It would only be a problem if the Leafs spent to the cap while Nylander was holding out instead of banking the salary, then dumped salary to sign him. It would also be a problem if they tried to trade him to a team that had been up against the cap all year.

The Leafs have a small issue in that Horton's contract will waste some of the cap until Marner signs, but Horton's cap hit is a lot less than what Marner will get so they should be able to maneuver around that.

This really isn't rocket science, it's just common sense.

I thought it was nonsense, but who knows really these days.

 

[Marshy]

Ask yourself what would be the purpose of this so-called cap inflation that supposedly only screws over teams. There's no reason for that to exist, which tells you right there that this is wrong information.

As has been said 50 times in this thread, cap hit is calculated DAILY. A 10M cap hit for 3 months is equivalent to a 5M cap hit for 6 months. Nylander's daily cap hit was higher because he signed later in the season, but his cap hit was ZERO for the two months he sat out, so the Leafs were just banking that cap space in the meantime.

It would only be a problem if the Leafs spent to the cap while Nylander was holding out instead of banking the salary, then dumped salary to sign him. It would also be a problem if they tried to trade him to a team that had been up against the cap all year.

The Leafs have a small issue in that Horton's contract will waste some of the cap until Marner signs (as well as Dermott and Hyman's replacement while they're out), but Horton's cap hit is a lot less than what Marner will get so they should be able to maneuver around that.

This really isn't rocket science, it's just common sense.

That's why a team that is 5M under the cap all year can add a 7.5M player at the TDL without having to clear extra room.

 

[Semantics]

All you have to do is look at Capfriendly to see they can't do that now, unless they do something else to make room for it.

Cap friendly indicates Marner could sign on Dec 1 for as much as 11.7M if they do nothing else besides run a 21 man roster in the interim, although if it were that high the Leafs would have to move out some salary as the year went on.

Just running a 21 man roster with no additional moves to clear space they could sign him for approx 10.6M AAV before the season, or up to approx 8.3M by Dec 1 due to the Horton contract.

 

[Marshy]

Cap friendly indicates Marner could sign on Dec 1 for as much as 11.7M, although if it were that high the Leafs would have to move out some salary as the year went on.

Just running a 21 man roster with no additional moves to clear space they could sign him for approx 10.6M AAV before the season, or up to approx 8.3M by Dec 1 due to the Horton contract.

Cap friendly indicates Marner could sign on Dec 1 for as much as 11.7M, although if it were that high the Leafs would have to move out some salary as the year went on.

Just running a 21 man roster with no additional moves to clear space they could sign him for approx 10.6M AAV before the season, or up to approx 8.3M by Dec 1 due to the Horton contract.

What about injuries? If a Marlie comes up to replace...say, an injury to a bigger salary player - Leafs bank the difference in salaries on the cap? How does it work does the injured player have to miss a certain amount of time for the Leafs to get the cap break?

 

[Muikea Bulju]

Here is The 2018-2019 Toronto Cap Payroll chart

As you can see, Nylander's personal cap hit was over 10 million, but he counted against the Toronto team cap only for 126/186 days, and so his cap number / accumulated cap hit against the team cap was under 7 million.

So, in short: if Toronto can afford Marner in the beginning of the season, they can afford him in december too.

 

[Semantics]

That's why a team that is 5M under the cap all year can add a 7.5M player at the TDL without having to clear extra room.

Yeah, it's also why the Leafs usually send waiver-exempt players down to the Marlies between games, it lets them save 700k or whatever in cap hit on the in-between days.

 

[Semantics]

What about injuries? If a Marlie comes up to replace...say, an injury to a bigger salary player - Leafs bank the difference in salaries? How does it work dies the injured player have to miss a certain amount of time for the Leafs to get the cap break?

Nope, injuries could hurt, as far as I know you can exceed the cap by the injured player's salary but the replacement's salary still counts. That's why Horton's contract is a problem, his 5.3M still counts against the cap, him being on LTIR just means the Leafs are allowed to go 5.3M above the upper limit.

If we end up having a bunch of injured players early in the season and calling up Marlies to replace them, I think that would cut into how much space we have to give to Marner. But Dubas can always clear salary mid season to make room, so I'm not worried.

Actually, if Marner still isn't signed by later in the summer I wouldn't be surprised if they trade Horton to a cap floor team. He only has one year left, and at that time of year I don't think it would cost a 1st like Marleau did.

 

[MyBudJT]

View attachment 243423

Here is The 2018-2019 Toronto Cap Payroll chart

As you can see, Nylander's personal cap hit was over 10 million, but he counted against the Toronto team cap only for 126/186 days, and so his cap number / accumulated cap hit against the team cap was under 7 million.

So, in short: if Toronto can afford Marner in the beginning of the season, they can afford him in december too.

If we weren't using LTIR, you're correct. However I believe we are over the cap and into our LTIR space, which doesn't accumulate the same way. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[socko]

So, in short: if Toronto can afford Marner in the beginning of the season, they can afford him in december too.

Assuming the Leafs don't have someone else called up in his place eating up cap space correct? Otherwise, that would have to be subtracted from the contract assuming we max out the salary cap.

 

[nuck]

A 22 year old 94 point forward is going to get quite the haul no matter what.

Not if he wants the moon. You need to be a UFA to get top $. Everyone wants a 94pt winger but $11M is going to be out of the budget for most of the teams in the league if he isn't Ovechkin. In fact most teams would probably not consider re-upping an existing player at close to that number; ie Carolina. never mind paying multiple high draft picks as a bonus for the over pay. But $9M is still quite a haul.

 

[Kiwi]

If we weren't using LTIR, you're correct. However I believe we are over the cap and into our LTIR space, which doesn't accumulate the same way. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

You are correct, you don't accumulate cap space if your using LTIR

So if your using LTIR it's in your best interests to use as much of that space as possible, every single dollar of that 5.3M if you can

 

[Jmo89]

If we weren't using LTIR, you're correct. However I believe we are over the cap and into our LTIR space, which doesn't accumulate the same way. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

If Marner is unsigned I don't believe they need to use the LTIR do they? So as Semantics said they would save the cap hit until Marner is signed, and then begin using the LTIR.

They currently have like 3.5M in space I think.

I could be wrong though. Feel free to correct.

 

[Amadeus]

Yeah many dont realize that 4 years is a long time and a lot can go wrong in one of two of those years that bring those picks up in the lottery range.

Mitch is my favorite player but a part of me will accept that letting him go may end up being better for us in the long run. With the added space we can feasibly re-sign both Rielly and Barrie and still have enough to improve our team.

 

[FlareKnight]

All we can do is hope that as the options dwindle that Marner feels the pressure and tells his agent to just take the best deal available. The further into the Summer we go the less I can take the offer sheet as a serious threat. Although again if it comes down to that...Marner has signed his ticket out of town one way or another. He will and should get paid. But if he's going to be here then it has to be within the realm of reason.

Nothing to do but keep waiting on it.

 

[Trapper]

At the end of the day I don’t think you should be paying 4 players half the cap and not one is a defensemen.

If you are taking up half the cap it should be spread out over 3 forwards, 2 D.
Say in the next 3 years (Rielly is UFA) the cap is going to 84-86 mil. That’s 43 mil half on the high end. This year it’s ok but moving forward:

Matthews 11.634
Tavares 11
Rielly (next deal 8)?
Barrie (next deal 7)?
Forward 7-10 mil. Not 2.

That’s 47 high end. Plus new deal Andersen.

The 4 forward thing, or 3 forwards double digits is pushing the team envelope.

 

[OddyOh]

Can’t wait for Marner to sign on the dotted line, then he should tweet one of these many photos of happier times.

60 Top Mitch Marner Carlton Pictures, Photos and Images - Getty Images

 

[Sypher04]

He needs to sign by October 2nd. By the time the season starts if the Leafs are not against the cap they will not get the full benefit of Horton's LTIR. They need to be as close to the cap ceiling as possible. If Marner isn't signed by then we risk losing valuable LTIR space we need to fit him

 

[Sypher04]

Cap friendly indicates Marner could sign on Dec 1 for as much as 11.7M if they do nothing else besides run a 21 man roster in the interim, although if it were that high the Leafs would have to move out some salary as the year went on.

Just running a 21 man roster with no additional moves to clear space they could sign him for approx 10.6M AAV before the season, or up to approx 8.3M by Dec 1 due to the Horton contract.

Exactly. Although you also have to factor the money made by whoever is holding Marner's roster spot while he's out still. Wouldn't be overly significant but it's probably another couple hundred thousand by Dec 1

 

[kfox]

I think Cody Ceci was signed not because he's actually wanted but to bring the cap space available inline to what Dubas wants to pay Marner...Dubas: "Mitch, you can see the cap room we have." Ceci will end up traded or on waivers and with a 1 year contract someone will claim him