Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects Thread - 2023-23 Season Edition

[justashadowof]

Shortly after SDA’s well earned call up he attempted a controlled zone entry and turned the puck over at the blue line. Sheldon Keefe didn’t trust him after that and he never got another game with the big club.

Failing to make basic plays is a sign that a player isn't ready. It's a difficult profession to be a support player. There's very little leeway for glaring mistakes. Organizations will tolerate higher end prospects making mistakes but not the grunts. Other recent examples of the harshness of this world: Kristian Rubins blown by a couple of times during a Saturday rivalry night game (after a decent first game) didn't see any more ice and was out of the organization by season's end, tall drink of water Curtis Douglas shrugging his shoulders at an opponent blasting his goalie was out of the organization in a month or so.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Failing to make basic plays is a sign that a player isn't ready. It's a difficult profession to be a support player. There's very little leeway for glaring mistakes. Organizations will tolerate higher end prospects making mistakes but not the grunts. Other recent examples of the harshness of this world: Kristian Rubins blown by a couple of times during a Saturday rivalry night game (after a decent first game) didn't see any more ice and was out of the organization by season's end, tall drink of water Curtis Douglas shrugging his shoulders at an opponent blasting his goalie was out of the organization in a month or so.

I still kind of cringe at the comments that Trotz made, basically saying aim for high end prospects, he can find 3rd and 4th line players all the time.

I don't know if I treat quality 3rd and 4th line players like they're nothing because teams have paid up at the TDL for them the last few years.

Yes, you need skill, your franchise is screwed without the skilled 1st line centre etc but definitely a 3rd line wing or 3rd pairing defenseman as a ceiling might not be sexy but in a 4th-7th rounder and they're hard to play against etc? Sure why not.

 

[LaPlante94]

I still kind of cringe at the comments that Trotz made, basically saying aim for high end prospects, he can find 3rd and 4th line players all the time.

I don't know if I treat quality 3rd and 4th line players like they're nothing because teams have paid up at the TDL for them the last few years.

Yes, you need skill, your franchise is screwed without the skilled 1st line centre etc but definitely a 3rd line wing or 3rd pairing defenseman as a ceiling might not be sexy but in a 4th-7th rounder and they're hard to play against etc? Sure why not.

I think he's just saying he knows what kind of players will be successful in the NHL in the 3rd and 4th line roles and he can spot kids with those talents easily and he wants his scouts to take homerun swings on kids that has the tools to be top 6 offensive players. Take Colby Barlow in this upcoming draft. A lot of mock drafts have him in the 10-20 range now and he's the perfect example of someone who might not drive a line on his own like some others will but he is the perfect complimentary piece to so many different types of players he can be a good top 6 guy or a very good bottom 6 guy who can play PP and PK. Basically a Mark Stone clone but he has a better shot than Stone imo.

 

[Menzinger]

I still kind of cringe at the comments that Trotz made, basically saying aim for high end prospects, he can find 3rd and 4th line players all the time.

I don't know if I treat quality 3rd and 4th line players like they're nothing because teams have paid up at the TDL for them the last few years.

Yes, you need skill, your franchise is screwed without the skilled 1st line centre etc but definitely a 3rd line wing or 3rd pairing defenseman as a ceiling might not be sexy but in a 4th-7th rounder and they're hard to play against etc? Sure why not.

I get where you're coming from. But I think the issue is you can find those bottom six/third pair guys a plenty in free agency without too much trouble. While getting a guy like Point from the 3rd round or Kaprizov from the 5th round can impact a franchise for a decade

 

[WTFMAN99]

I get where you're coming from. But I think the issue is you can find those bottom six/third pair guys a plenty in free agency without too much trouble. While getting a guy like Point from the 3rd round or Kaprizov from the 5th round can impact a franchise for a decade

If the skill level is unnaturally high or you don't see a lot of warts for the draft slot, I say go for it.

Point had size / speed issues for the drop to the 3rd round, he's solid enough on his skates now and actually it's unreal as to where his skating is. Kaprizov...not enough exposure as a Russian?

Grebyonkin was a pick where I can say, sure that's a gamble I am okay with, Voit too.

I'm not saying go back to the Burke days of just taking big dudes but there's a healthy balance there somewhere.

 

[Burnie97]

I just watched the video again of the hit last night by Stillman crushing the forward on Kamloops. What a hit. Then the other guy comes in to fight Stillman and he kicks his ass. What a beauty. Leafs need more of that.

Sorry realize its not a Leafs prospect but I'm a Petes fan.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Changes on the Maple Leafs blue line among the possibilities for Treliving

As the Leafs' new GM, Brad Treliving will put the roster under a microscope. Toronto's blue line is expected to grab some of his attention.

torontosun.com

From an NHL amateur scout (not employed by Toronto) who is on site at the Memorial Cup and watched Leafs prospect Fraser Minten with the Kamloops Blazers before the host team was eliminated by the Peterborough Petes: “I really like him. He’s a smooth two-way guy who probably fits into the middle six one day. The second line would be his ceiling, the third line his floor.” Minten, a second-round pick by the Leafs in 2022, signed a three-year entry-level deal with Toronto last October …

 

[Fogelhund]

I appreciate that his numbers or size don’t jump off the page, but Michael Simpson has been tremendous for the Pete’s in games that matter. He’s really kept the Pete’s in some games when maybe they weren’t the better team. He can be a Free Agent signing, so why not?

Londoner Michael Simpson steals spotlight (and goals) at Memorial Cup

London native Michael Simpson has turned around the Memorial Cup fortunes of the Peterborough Petes

lfpress.com

 

[AlienWorkShop]

Shortly after SDA’s well earned call up he attempted a controlled zone entry and turned the puck over at the blue line. Sheldon Keefe didn’t trust him after that and he never got another game with the big club.

Haha, I know the exact play you're talking about. I think it was his one and only shift on PP2 and he made a particularly dumb drop pass crossing the blue line and you could literally see Keefe turn his whole body in disgust on the bench haha

Always struck me as a kind of interesting slow-burn prospect. See how he slowly adapted himself to the pro game and go from there... has made some strides, but not surprising if he decides to bolt.

No major loss as a 3rd rounder. As per the discussion above, perhaps there's a balance to be had, but I have no issue with taking occasional big swings in the mid-low rounds.

 

[justashadowof]

I still kind of cringe at the comments that Trotz made, basically saying aim for high end prospects, he can find 3rd and 4th line players all the time.

I don't know if I treat quality 3rd and 4th line players like they're nothing because teams have paid up at the TDL for them the last few years.

Yes, you need skill, your franchise is screwed without the skilled 1st line centre etc but definitely a 3rd line wing or 3rd pairing defenseman as a ceiling might not be sexy but in a 4th-7th rounder and they're hard to play against etc? Sure why not.

I think I get what Trotz is saying that there are many more candidates to be 3rd/4th line players while higher skilled prospects are rarer and have a high return when they hit. I've always been an advocate for appreciating the contributions of the players in the lower part of the lineup. The most ideal situation as far as I'm concerned is the certainty of stability and mistake-free play from a team's lower lineup. I hate the constant turnover. In theory these guys should be as much about the team's culture as the stars. The salary cap kills this unless you want to populate the bottom of your lineup with absolute grunts. I still think it's a crying shame that players like Connor Brown and Kasperi Kapanen couldn't have become fixtures on the team's bottom 6 for a decade. The "team" in team has been so de-emphasized (and even moreso in Toronto) that the support talent is like the "friends for a night" that these guys experience going out on the town.

 

[Stand Witness]

Overall, I agree that you want to aim for high skill, top end players.

Maybe a little change on the wording makes sense though. Top 6 players and 3rd line centers are valuable imo. Bottom 6 wingers and 4th line centers can be filled dime a dozen.

 

[hockeynorth]

Matthews
X
Minten

Need to find a 2C prospect IMO

 

[RoadWarrior]

Taking his game to Russia, is probably a good move for SDA. He was making $70k in the minors here, he'll probably make more over there. He was making some decent progress with the Marlies, but I don't think he has a NHL future in him. He'll be 23 come the start of the next season. Best of luck in Russia.

----------------------------------------------------------

I've watched parts of most of the Memorial Cup games, and they've been a lot of fun to watch. Minten is a solid player, and I think he'll make a good Kampf replacement one day, as a good two way 3C, with ok offensive skills, but moreso very good defensive skills. I really like what he brings to the table.

SDA just doesn’t have the speed necessary to make up for his lack of physical strength. His passing game is NHL calibre but he didn’t develop enough physically.

Unfortunately I could say the same about Minten. He has a ways to go before his skating is up to NHL quality. That shot though is already at an NHL level.

 

[RoadWarrior]

I think he's just saying he knows what kind of players will be successful in the NHL in the 3rd and 4th line roles and he can spot kids with those talents easily and he wants his scouts to take homerun swings on kids that has the tools to be top 6 offensive players. Take Colby Barlow in this upcoming draft. A lot of mock drafts have him in the 10-20 range now and he's the perfect example of someone who might not drive a line on his own like some others will but he is the perfect complimentary piece to so many different types of players he can be a good top 6 guy or a very good bottom 6 guy who can play PP and PK. Basically a Mark Stone clone but he has a better shot than Stone imo.

You should always aim high at the draft. Teams can sign bottom 6 guys as free agents or make trades. They’re not expensive or hard to find. Scoring talent is very hard to find.

 

[Metroid]

Matthews
X
Minten

Need to find a 2C prospect IMO

Trade for Lindholm. Him and Willie would kill it I think.

 

[ULF_55]

Trade for Lindholm. Him and Willie would kill it I think.

I just don't see what the Leafs would have besides Nylander to land him?

Not proposing this, just suggesting a value ...

marner and Liljegren and a Marlies player
for
Hanifan and Lindholm and a Wrangler player
?

Tavares (25% retention) and Liljegren and a Marlies player
for
Hanifan and Lindholm and a Wrangler player
?

 

[Metroid]

I just don't see what the Leafs would have besides Nylander to land him?

Not proposing this, just suggesting a value ...

marner and Liljegren
for
Hanifan and Lindholm
?

Tavares (25% retention) and Liljegren
for
Hanifan and Lindholm
?

Ya, the issue would be what to give up for Lindholm, realized this is probably the wrong thread to discuss this after I quoted the other post haha

 

[Thornbury]

SDA just doesn’t have the speed necessary to make up for his lack of physical strength. His passing game is NHL calibre but he didn’t develop enough physically.

Unfortunately I could say the same about Minten. He has a ways to go before his skating is up to NHL quality. That shot though is already at an NHL level.

SDA was definitely a Dubas swing and miss, as was Riley Stotts. He wasn't infallible, but generally did well at the draft.

 

[LaPlante94]

You should always aim high at the draft. Teams can sign bottom 6 guys as free agents or make trades. They’re not expensive or hard to find. Scoring talent is very hard to find.

Idk about that. I'd rather take a very effective bottom 6 guy on a ELC that didn't require any assets to trade away or possibly overpay in FA for 3 years over trading away picks/prospects or whatever. Look at Kolesar on Vegas who is a 4th liner and pretty effective in his role. Vegas had to trade the 45th overall pick for a 4th liner not even playing 10 mins a game these playoffs which ended up being Texier. If I'm trading 1st or 2d round picks I would be wanting to get a top 6 player in return but the way the market is teams know teams are desperate for good bottom 6 depth guys so you see them getting moved for 1st or 2nd round picks and unfortunately we're always in the market for these types of players because we don't draft them . Don't go for a homerun pick everytime because if you could get a very good bottom 6 player who can skate and play physical then you possibly have them cheap for 3-7 years on cheap deals and towards the end of the 2nd deal you could probably move them if you know they'll want a raise for a very good return without really hurting your team, especially if you have another player like them waiting for an opening in the lineup. If scouts really love a guy and think they'll be a top 6 guy then pull the trigger but they shouldn't just be trying to find those hit or miss guys with every single pick every single year. That quote from Trotz the other day was perfect thinking imo between a GM and his scouts.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Idk about that. I'd rather take a very effective bottom 6 guy on a ELC that didn't require any assets to trade away or possibly overpay in FA for 3 years over trading away picks/prospects or whatever. Look at Kolesar on Vegas who is a 4th liner and pretty effective in his role. Vegas had to trade the 45th overall pick for a 4th liner not even playing 10 mins a game these playoffs which ended up being Texier. If I'm trading 1st or 2d round picks I would be wanting to get a top 6 player in return but the way the market is teams know teams are desperate for good bottom 6 depth guys so you see them getting moved for 1st or 2nd round picks and unfortunately we're always in the market for these types of players because we don't draft them . Don't go for a homerun pick everytime because if you could get a very good bottom 6 player who can skate and play physical then you possibly have them cheap for 3-7 years on cheap deals and towards the end of the 2nd deal you could probably move them if you know they'll want a raise for a very good return without really hurting your team, especially if you have another player like them waiting for an opening in the lineup. If scouts really love a guy and think they'll be a top 6 guy then pull the trigger but they shouldn't just be trying to find those hit or miss guys with every single pick every single year. That quote from Trotz the other day was perfect thinking imo between a GM and his scouts.

I guess you try to find a guy with some size and if it works out you have a scoring power forward but maybe if not, you have a 4th line banger that can give you 8-12 goals a year like a Kolesar or a Carrier.

Picking 5'10 guys every year though and sometimes with questionable speed means there isn't a secondary use, either they have to be a top 6 guy or they're not in the show. Take calculated guesses on guys like Grebyonkin but if you find me a William Carrier, I am happy.

 

[ULF_55]

I guess you try to find a guy with some size and if it works out you have a scoring power forward but maybe if not, you have a 4th line banger that can give you 8-12 goals a year like a Kolesar or a Carrier.

Picking 5'10 guys every year though and sometimes with questionable speed means there isn't a secondary use, either they have to be a top 6 guy or they're not in the show. Take calculated guesses on guys like Grebyonkin but if you find me a William Carrier, I am happy.

So how big is Grebyonkin now?

 

[Fonzieleaf]

I was kind of hoping Minten would've had a more impactful memorial cup. 1 goal in 4 games.

 

[WTFMAN99]

So how big is Grebyonkin now?

6'2 although I don't know if he has a translatable game as a checker type.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I guess you try to find a guy with some size and if it works out you have a scoring power forward but maybe if not, you have a 4th line banger that can give you 8-12 goals a year like a Kolesar or a Carrier.

Picking 5'10 guys every year though and sometimes with questionable speed means there isn't a secondary use, either they have to be a top 6 guy or they're not in the show. Take calculated guesses on guys like Grebyonkin but if you find me a William Carrier, I am happy.

We haven't taken too many guys who are top 6 or bust. A lot of them, especially the ones who are taken with earlier picks, have the hockey IQ and ability to adapt their games to a bottom 6 role... especially with the developmental resources we have available.

Now we just need a coach who is better at defensive structures than Moore and we should be fine.

 

[WTFMAN99]

We haven't taken too many guys who are top 6 or bust. A lot of them, especially the ones who are taken with earlier picks, have the hockey IQ and ability to adapt their games to a bottom 6 role... especially with the developmental resources we have available.

Now we just need a coach who is better at defensive structures than Moore and we should be fine.

Amirov would be not applicable and then we have Hirvonen at 5'9 and maybe he's a tweener type scorer in the middle 6...who else do we have that you'd be referring to? We just have so few early picks left.

Knies is definitely someone that can play in the top 6 but if things went bad, he could play on a 3rd line.

I guess Minten? Seems like a safe 3C.