Prospect Info: Marlies & Prospect Discussion

[conFABulator]

Quillan
Grebyonkin
Cowan

Are all guys I look at in the main camp.

I know people put Minten in that group but I honestly think you're going to get a better finished product by putting him at the 1C with the Marlies and giving him good wingers to get better offensively.

If only say, Cowan made it, the below is a pretty good group;

Nylander-Minten-Steeves would be great wingers for him to start.
Abrusezze-Shaw-Grebyonkin
Hirvonen-Quillan-Tverberg

Nice top 9

I like all of this.

I agree on the Minten approach. It might be good to get him a few games in the NHL this year so he can benchmark his development and readiness and go back to the AHL knowing what work he needs to do. Him getting 1C touches and minutes might be exactly the grooming he needs to be a 3C in the show, which I think is a fine place for him to end up. 3C/4C combination of Minten and Quillan could be huge for us for the next 5 to 7 years.

I also think we should give Steeves a real look this year, probably once injuries hit. I feel like he has done what have needed him to do as a Marlie and we should reward that with an opportunity.

I would like to see Robertson, Holmberg, Minten, Cowan, Grebyenkin, and Steeves play a combined 300 NHL games this year. We need to start integrating youth into the lineup (maybe include A. Nylander in this, he is a wildcard).

Cowan is another situational one. I used to think being with big club was best for his development (nothing left to learn in the O) and for the team (depth with energy and upside). Now I think we only plan for the nine games unless he blows our doors off and forces his way into the top nine. He would be taking a spot from Robertson or Holmberg. Those guys have upside too so it's a bit about asset management. I could see either of the following being a good call:

(a) He sticks with the Leafs and gets into +/- 40 games this year, he practices with pros and NHL coaches every day, he observes and learns from the pressbox too, he gets released to the juniors and leads them, he is a fresh playoff option for us, and he is prepare and confident to be an a full timer and contributor the following year.

(b) He goes back to the Knights, plays centre, bulks up a bit, works on his game, and shows us he can do what he did last year again only as the undisputed leader of his team. He goes to the juniors and has more impact there too. He comes to camp next year to win a job or be a Marlie fighting for a call up all year.

Plan (B) seems like the more measured and patient approach and we do have other youth we want to integrate this year. Grebyenkin for example.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I like all of this.

I agree on the Minten approach. It might be good to get him a few games in the NHL this year so he can benchmark his development and readiness and go back to the AHL knowing what work he needs to do. Him getting 1C touches and minutes might be exactly the grooming he needs to be a 3C in the show, which I think is a fine place for him to end up. 3C/4C combination of Minten and Quillan could be huge for us for the next 5 to 7 years.

I also think we should give Steeves a real look this year, probably once injuries hit. I feel like he has done what have needed him to do as a Marlie and we should reward that with an opportunity.

I would like to see Robertson, Holmberg, Minten, Cowan, Grebyenkin, and Steeves play a combined 300 NHL games this year. We need to start integrating youth into the lineup (maybe include A. Nylander in this, he is a wildcard).

Cowan is another situational one. I used to think being with big club was best for his development (nothing left to learn in the O) and for the team (depth with energy and upside). Now I think we only plan for the nine games unless he blows our doors off and forces his way into the top nine. He would be taking a spot from Robertson or Holmberg. Those guys have upside too so it's a bit about asset management. I could see either of the following being a good call:

(a) He sticks with the Leafs and gets into +/- 40 games this year, he practices with pros and NHL coaches every day, he observes and learns from the pressbox too, he gets released to the juniors and leads them, he is a fresh playoff option for us, and he is prepare and confident to be an a full timer and contributor the following year.

(b) He goes back to the Knights, plays centre, bulks up a bit, works on his game, and shows us he can do what he did last year again only as the undisputed leader of his team. He goes to the juniors and has more impact there too. He comes to camp next year to win a job or be a Marlie fighting for a call up all year.

Plan (B) seems like the more measured and patient approach and we do have other youth we want to integrate this year. Grebyenkin for example.

I think with Cowan, he needs to be top 9 and an everyday player for us like Knies was, I wouldn't get cute with the in/out of the line up stuff. If he makes the team out of camp but the 9 game mark comes around and he isn't effective, unfortunately he needs to go back to the OHL for another year.

If Grebyonkin of Quillan are legit better, then you give them the spot in the line up, it needs to be based on merit now to create a strong culture.

 

[conFABulator]

I think with Cowan, he needs to be top 9 and an everyday player for us like Knies was, I wouldn't get cute with the in/out of the line up stuff. If he makes the team out of camp but the 9 game mark comes around and he isn't effective, unfortunately he needs to go back to the OHL for another year.

If Grebyonkin of Quillan are legit better, then you give them the spot in the line up, it needs to be based on merit now to create a strong culture.

I tend to agree on Cowan. However 40 or so NHL games + world juniors + NHL playoffs (possibly even eligible for AHL.olayofds, unsure) is about the same amount of games he might get in the OHL.

I agree it needs to be handled properly and not too cute. I also think that it is the minimum commitment we need to make to his development if we keep him up.

Fully agree on a meritocracy of course.

 

[shaner8989]

Exciting to finally have talent to watch and could finally get NHL games.

Cowan
Grebyonkin
Quillan
Minten
Niemela

Knies was the last prospect I was excited about. That was years ago.

 

[ULF_55]

They will be in tough to ever make the Leafs. Tre didn't draft them and likes size.

​

Everyone likes size ... but Treliving doesn't draft based on size.

Connor Zary​

Center -- shoots L
Born Sep 25 2001 -- Saskatoon, SASK
[22 yrs. ago]
Height 6.00 -- Weight 178 [183 cm/81 kg]

Dillon Dube​

Center -- shoots L
Born Jul 20 1998 -- Golden, BC
[26 yrs. ago]
Height 5.11 -- Weight 185 [180 cm/84 kg]

Andrew Mangiapane​

Left Wing -- shoots L
Born Apr 4 1996 -- Toronto, ONT
[28 yrs. ago]
Height 5.10 -- Weight 184 [178 cm/83 kg]
Drafted by Calgary Flames
- round 6 #166 overall 2015 NHL Entry Draft

 

[ULF_55]

USA Vs. Canada Scouting Reports At World Junior Summer Showcase And More - FloHockey

USA beat Canada in a thrilling game that was decided in a shootout. Chris Peters breaks down some of the most impressive performances from the game.

www.flohockey.tv

Chadwick was in this game.

IIRC they sent the locks home, including Cowan.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

They will be in tough to ever make the Leafs. Tre didn't draft them and likes size.

Tre is the same guy that drafted the likes of Fox, Dube, Mangiapagne, Pelletier and Phillips. All guys that are 5'11 and under

 

[Fogelhund]

They will be in tough to ever make the Leafs. Tre didn't draft them and likes size.

Tre looks good hockey players. If they grow to be good hockey players, good enough to make the team better, they’ll be on the team. I have no idea if that will happen though.

 

[Stephen]

I like all of this.

I agree on the Minten approach. It might be good to get him a few games in the NHL this year so he can benchmark his development and readiness and go back to the AHL knowing what work he needs to do. Him getting 1C touches and minutes might be exactly the grooming he needs to be a 3C in the show, which I think is a fine place for him to end up. 3C/4C combination of Minten and Quillan could be huge for us for the next 5 to 7 years.

I wouldn't be too surprised if Minten has to go to the AHL for a year minimum, maybe stretching into two seasons, with a handful of NHL games sprinkled in. Then bake in another unproductive year and a half of NHL hockey before he finds his true footing in the middle 6, top 9. All told, about a 2.5-3 year process before you have a 23 year old centerman who can contribute a real shift. Basing this on a Morgan Geekie progression, but maybe something faster like Charlie Coyle if we're lucky.

 

[conFABulator]

I wouldn't be too surprised if Minten has to go to the AHL for a year minimum, maybe stretching into two seasons, with a handful of NHL games sprinkled in. Then bake in another unproductive year and a half of NHL hockey before he finds his true footing in the middle 6, top 9. All told, about a 2.5-3 year process before you have a 23 year old centerman who can contribute a real shift. Basing this on a Morgan Geekie progression, but maybe something faster like Charlie Coyle if we're lucky.

Yeah, that does seem like the play with Minten and players that age and level. Minten however, is praised for him maturity, hockey IQ, and poise. They thought he was good enough LAST year for the nine game cup of coffee. The Leafs do have F depth and the ability to shelter and support a kid or two every year.

Two years form now, JT could be resigned on a 3C deal and maybe Minten gets brought up to play 3LW on a line with Tavares and gradually shifts over to C over the subsequent year or two as JT settles into 3LW? Who knows?

 

[Stephen]

Yeah, that does seem like the play with Minten and players that age and level. Minten however, is praised for him maturity, hockey IQ, and poise. They thought he was good enough LAST year for the nine game cup of coffee. The Leafs do have F depth and the ability to shelter and support a kid or two every year.

Two years form now, JT could be resigned on a 3C deal and maybe Minten gets brought up to play 3LW on a line with Tavares and gradually shifts over to C over the subsequent year or two as JT settles into 3LW? Who knows?

I'm just willing to be patient with Minten and let him build up his experience, pro game and body over time, careful not to pencil him into anything and hopefully just be pleasantly surprised whenever he's ready t go.

On the high IQ piece, I don't think that will factor into promotion time. Personally I'm not sure what to make of the previous regime and all the high IQ players they pumped up over the years. For all the guys Dubas, Clark or whomever highlighted as a high IQ player, there wasn't always a direct line to how special that player was. The Alex Kerfoot base model utility forward. The high IQ QB in Rasmus Sandin. Nick Abruzzese who seems to be able to think the game but has AAAA level skills. Pontus Holmberg who is alternatingly impressive and completely vanilla.

 

[Fogelhund]

• 2023/2024
• 
  
• DEL Defenseman of the Year
• DEL Most Points by Defenseman (46)
• DEL Player of the Year

2021/22

• USports (OUA East) Defenceman of the Year
• USports (OUA East) Most Valuable Player
• USports (OUA Far East) All-Star Team
• USports All-Canadian First Team
• USports Defenceman of the Year

Late bloomer? 6'6" RHD. Strong skating, smart guy, good one timer...

""

 

[ULF_55]

I'm just willing to be patient with Minten and let him build up his experience, pro game and body over time, careful not to pencil him into anything and hopefully just be pleasantly surprised whenever he's ready t go.

On the high IQ piece, I don't think that will factor into promotion time. Personally I'm not sure what to make of the previous regime and all the high IQ players they pumped up over the years. For all the guys Dubas, Clark or whomever highlighted as a high IQ player, there wasn't always a direct line to how special that player was. The Alex Kerfoot base model utility forward. The high IQ QB in Rasmus Sandin. Nick Abruzzese who seems to be able to think the game but has AAAA level skills. Pontus Holmberg who is alternatingly impressive and completely vanilla.

Minten doesn't remind me of the term dynamic.

However, HIQ, decent skating and good size.

The following reflects the little I've witnessed.

Fraser Minten

March 2024 - Minten became a force for the Saskatoon Blades, scoring 19 goals and 38 points in 36 games after being acquired. The Blades finished the WHL season as the top-team in the entire league and will look to make it to this year's Memorial Cup. If they want to get there though, Minten

dobberprospects.com

North-South center with above-average intelligence and defensive abilities. Needs to round out his puck skills and add some finesse, but could become a middle-six forward at the NHL level.

NHL Certainty​

Summary: Numerical rating from zero to ten. Indicates what are the odds of said prospect becoming a full-time NHL player (e.g. 5.5 rating equals to 55% odds). Prospect’s NHL Certainty changes over time – 18-year-olds start with lower odds, and those odds are improved if their development is on track and they prove themselves against higher level of competition. Prospects who are already playing in the NHL should have a rating of 9.0 or higher.

 

[ULF_55]

• 2023/2024
• 
  
• DEL Defenseman of the Year
• DEL Most Points by Defenseman (46)
• DEL Player of the Year

2021/22

• USports (OUA East) Defenceman of the Year
• USports (OUA East) Most Valuable Player
• USports (OUA Far East) All-Star Team
• USports All-Canadian First Team
• USports Defenceman of the Year

Late bloomer? 6'6" RHD.

""

Wouldn't that be a homerun if he can steal a spot?

 

[Sypher04]

• 2023/2024
• 
  
• DEL Defenseman of the Year
• DEL Most Points by Defenseman (46)
• DEL Player of the Year

2021/22

• USports (OUA East) Defenceman of the Year
• USports (OUA East) Most Valuable Player
• USports (OUA Far East) All-Star Team
• USports All-Canadian First Team
• USports Defenceman of the Year

Late bloomer? 6'6" RHD. Strong skating, smart guy, good one timer...

""

“In Game 2 of the series against Berlin, he played a whopping 41:57 in a one-goal loss (and no, that game didn’t go to overtime).”

 

[ULF_55]

“In Game 2 of the series against Berlin, he played a whopping 41:57 in a one-goal loss (and no, that game didn’t go to overtime).”

That would be great for the Cap.

Use him on two pairs.

j/k before the posting police arrive.

 

[conFABulator]

I'm just willing to be patient with Minten and let him build up his experience, pro game and body over time, careful not to pencil him into anything and hopefully just be pleasantly surprised whenever he's ready t go.

On the high IQ piece, I don't think that will factor into promotion time. Personally I'm not sure what to make of the previous regime and all the high IQ players they pumped up over the years. For all the guys Dubas, Clark or whomever highlighted as a high IQ player, there wasn't always a direct line to how special that player was. The Alex Kerfoot base model utility forward. The high IQ QB in Rasmus Sandin. Nick Abruzzese who seems to be able to think the game but has AAAA level skills. Pontus Holmberg who is alternatingly impressive and completely vanilla.

it's possible you are blending high IQ (you listed some Harvard guys) with high hockey IQ. Those are different. I think every management team puts high value on the latter.

 

[Stephen]

it's possible you are blending high IQ (you listed some Harvard guys) with high hockey IQ. Those are different. I think every management team puts high value on the latter.

I’m personally not blending high IQ with high hockey IQ, since I’m just regurgitating what the Leafs have put out there about some of these guys. But yeah maybe Toronto has conflated the intellectual with the hockey when they talked up Kerfoot and Abruzzese in the past.

 

[conFABulator]

I’m personally not blending high IQ with high hockey IQ, since I’m just regurgitating what the Leafs have put out there about some of these guys. But yeah maybe Toronto has conflated the intellectual with the hockey when they talked up Kerfoot and Abruzzese in the past.

Fair. Actual hockey IQ is an asset in any player that has it. We shouldn't hold it against anyone on our current or previous scouting and management teams that placed a premium on this attribute.

However, if they were wrong on assessing how much hockey IQ a player had, then that's not a good thing. I guess also if they place it as the top attribute for players we acquire that could be a problem too, as we do need players that might have "compete" or "aggressiveness" as top attributes.

I have heard from a few sources, anecdotally that Bertuzzi does not have a high hockey IQ and you can see that this might be the case when you watch him. However, he is effective and seemed to complement his linemates and perhaps it was because he brought a different mix of skills and strengths. It is also possible that this was why he took a while to fit it with his new team?

 

[Stephen]

Fair. Actual hockey IQ is an asset in any player that has it. We shouldn't hold it against anyone on our current or previous scouting and management teams that placed a premium on this attribute.

However, if they were wrong on assessing how much hockey IQ a player had, then that's not a good thing. I guess also if they place it as the top attribute for players we acquire that could be a problem too, as we do need players that might have "compete" or "aggressiveness" as top attributes.

I have heard from a few sources, anecdotally that Bertuzzi does not have a high hockey IQ and you can see that this might be the case when you watch him. However, he is effective and seemed to complement his linemates and perhaps it was because he brought a different mix of skills and strengths. It is also possible that this was why he took a while to fit it with his new team?

What I’m trying to say is the type of high IQ player the previous regime was in love with didn’t always translate into a particularly impactful or noticeable player overall.

So while the notion of a high IQ player is great, I wouldn’t expect it to carry the day for Minten until his maturity, physical strength and pro level experience also catches up a little bit.

 

[Stephen]

Wouldn't that be a homerun if he can steal a spot?

Imagine a Webber Mattinen game of Red Rover.

 

[Stephen]

Minten doesn't remind me of the term dynamic.

However, HIQ, decent skating and good size.

The following is reflects the little I've witnessed.

Fraser Minten

March 2024 - Minten became a force for the Saskatoon Blades, scoring 19 goals and 38 points in 36 games after being acquired. The Blades finished the WHL season as the top-team in the entire league and will look to make it to this year's Memorial Cup. If they want to get there though, Minten

dobberprospects.com

North-South center with above-average intelligence and defensive abilities. Needs to round out his puck skills and add some finesse, but could become a middle-six forward at the NHL level.

View attachment 899423

NHL Certainty​

Summary: Numerical rating from zero to ten. Indicates what are the odds of said prospect becoming a full-time NHL player (e.g. 5.5 rating equals to 55% odds). Prospect’s NHL Certainty changes over time – 18-year-olds start with lower odds, and those odds are improved if their development is on track and they prove themselves against higher level of competition. Prospects who are already playing in the NHL should have a rating of 9.0 or higher.

Yeah that seems to be the knock against him. Lack of finesse skills.

 

[conFABulator]

What I’m trying to say is the type of high IQ player the previous regime was in love with didn’t always translate into a particularly impactful or noticeable player overall.

So while the notion of a high IQ player is great, I wouldn’t expect it to carry the day for Minten until his maturity, physical strength and pro level experience also catches up a little bit.

That's fair. In the case of Minten. He has maturity and strength. I am also ok let him develop in the A for a year or two.

 

[hockeynorth]

I’m hoping Minten/Quillan could be like a Lowry/Copp for us

 

[The Iceman]

Fair. Actual hockey IQ is an asset in any player that has it. We shouldn't hold it against anyone on our current or previous scouting and management teams that placed a premium on this attribute.

However, if they were wrong on assessing how much hockey IQ a player had, then that's not a good thing. I guess also if they place it as the top attribute for players we acquire that could be a problem too, as we do need players that might have "compete" or "aggressiveness" as top attributes.

I have heard from a few sources, anecdotally that Bertuzzi does not have a high hockey IQ and you can see that this might be the case when you watch him. However, he is effective and seemed to complement his linemates and perhaps it was because he brought a different mix of skills and strengths. It is also possible that this was why he took a while to fit it with his new team?

My neighbour played with BERT in junior and said he is the dumbest dude he has ever met.
Does not mean that his hockey smarts are not strong though.