Prospect Info: Marlies & Prospect Discussion

Prominence

Ryan Tverberg Fan
Jul 22, 2011
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Regarding Grebyonkin: "He makes a lot of difficult plays with the puck from the perimeter and in traffic. Grebenkin was never highly touted as a prospect because of his heavy stride. He’s still slow by NHL standards, but his great compete level, ability to win pucks and play at the net have helped him succeed versus men."

I believe I've read here that Grebs is a a fast, skilled skater. Is Pronman off in his analysis?
iirc, his straight line speed was average-ish, but his mobility was slightly off. He couldn't pivot his body well when I watched him. He should be able to fix any skating issues. You know whose skating is a real issue? Noah Chadwick and people on this sub keep promoting him like he's a sure thing. Greb's selling point is his skill though and his KHL production is very optimistic.

Tverberg should be fine. If he does not get some games at the nhl level, I'll be very surprised.
 
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ULF_55

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Feb 27, 2002
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Regarding Grebyonkin: "He makes a lot of difficult plays with the puck from the perimeter and in traffic. Grebenkin was never highly touted as a prospect because of his heavy stride. He’s still slow by NHL standards, but his great compete level, ability to win pucks and play at the net have helped him succeed versus men."

I believe I've read here that Grebs is a a fast, skilled skater. Is Pronman off in his analysis?
Has remarkable stickhandling ability, can get creative to challenge defensemen one-on-one.. pretty fast too

Draftin Europe 2018

Leafs drafted this guy in the 5th. round?

Nikita Grebyonkin pre-draft rankings:

  • Ranked 46th by HockeyProspect.com’s Blackbook
  • Ranked 51st by NHL Central Scouting (EU Skaters)


Nikita Grebyonkin Scouting Report

courtesy of the 2022 Blackbook (BUY NOW)

We want to see prospects with slighter frames who don’t project to be very big or imposing have backup options when players try to physically overwhelm them. They need to be able to fight through checks when they are pinned against the boards, they need to be able to drive through traffic in areas of the ice where they know they might get banged up to make a play, and above all else, they need to make sure that their talent doesn’t get suppressed by getting mentally intimidated, especially when their game is based almost exclusively on skill.

Grebyonkin not only doesn’t get intimidated, but he steps up, he leads with his natural line-driving instincts for the game, and he finds a way to generate high-danger chances with his fantastic mental-mapping ability that’s showcased through his high-level playmaking skill set. That skill set led him to have some of the best primary assist rates out of any draft-eligible player that played junior hockey this past season.

Grebyonkin couldn’t generate with his playmaking if he didn’t put himself in the right positions on the ice, and in order to do that with a thinner frame, he had to rely on one of the most elusive natural skill sets out of any prospect available. Nikita has a rare blend of deception, elusiveness, and puck-handling ability that makes sure he doesn’t have to rely on his frame too often. We want players to be able to take hits, but it’s an even better projection when they are almost impossible to hit in the first place, and that’s the true defining quality of Grebyonkin’s game.
 
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4thline

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Jul 18, 2014
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Indeed, Tverberg and Quillan are likely 4th line NHLers, if they make it. Again, the context of my comments were guys being slept on, who could be quality higher end guys.
In old Hockey's Future ranking parlance, I think Grebyonkin/Hildeby would be consensus 7.5D types. The upside is obvious to anyone paying attention, but the track record/ pedigree isn't there so they're flagged as having a lot of risk. Whereas Tverberg/Quillan would be consensus 6B or even 5.5B based on their track record so far, but someone might look at that low upside consensus and say "nah their being slept on, I think they've got more upside than you'd think."
 

IrishInOntario

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May 18, 2013
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The reason I'm barely interested in how prospect pools rank is that they don't even attempt (largely because it's not the goal of the ranking) to account for the strength of the NHL roster at the top of the system. It's one thing to have an ultra strong prospect pool, but if your roster is trash, you actually need a huge majority of those guys to hit in order to turn your organization around.

Let's take Toronto's roster. The following are the current NHL pieces that I would consider to be "core" pieces for the foreseeable future.

C: Auston Matthews
C: John Tavares

LW: Matthew Knies
LW: Bobby McMann

RW: Mitch Marner
RW: William Nylander
RW: Max Domi

D: Morgan Rielly
D: Chris Tanev
D: Oliver Ekman-Larsson
D: Jake McCabe

G: Joseph Woll

If you assume that there are 6 remaining forward spots, 3 remaining defense spots and 1 remaining goalie spot that are not part of the core, you expect free agency to take care of at least 1/3 of those spots, with 2/3 of the remaining spots being filled by the prospect pool. Let's call that 4 forwards, 2 defense and 0 goalies that the prospect pool has to produce of the next few years.

Now let's look at the prospects in the system that I think have a reasonable to good chance of making the NHL in the coming years, and try to project where they might slot into the lineup.

Forwards
LW/RW: Eastan Cowan (Top 6)
RW: Nikita Grebenkin (Middle 6)
C: Fraser Minten (Bottom 6)
C: Alex Steeves (4th line)
LW/C Ryan Tverberg (Bottom 6)
LW/C Jacob Quillan (4th line)

Defense
Ben Danford (Bottom 4)
Topi Niemela (Bottom 4)
Noah Chadwick (Bottom 4)
Cade Webber (3rd pair)

Goalies
Dennis Hildeby (potential starter)
Artur Akhtyamov (potential starter)

Obviously, not all those guys will make it. There will also be 1 or 2 guys that I missed that wind up becoming players, but the reality is that the prospect pool is actually fairly respectable given how few players it needs to produce in the coming years to keep Toronto strong. Yes, you can make the argument that there isn't much projected top 6 talent in the forward pool, nor is there any top pairing defensive talent in the defense pool, but there also aren't many spots to fit those guys. Between Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Domi, Knies and Tavares, the top 6 forward spots look to be mostly filled for the foreseeable future. The same thing goes on defense. Rielly and Tanev are expected to be 1LD and 1RD for the foreseeable future and there looks to adequate current roster talent to fill out the 2nd pair. Therefore, we're really talking about the bottom pair and I' pretty comfortable with those options.
 

conFABulator

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Apr 11, 2021
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The reason I'm barely interested in how prospect pools rank is that they don't even attempt (largely because it's not the goal of the ranking) to account for the strength of the NHL roster at the top of the system. It's one thing to have an ultra strong prospect pool, but if your roster is trash, you actually need a huge majority of those guys to hit in order to turn your organization around.

Let's take Toronto's roster. The following are the current NHL pieces that I would consider to be "core" pieces for the foreseeable future.

C: Auston Matthews
C: John Tavares

LW: Matthew Knies
LW: Bobby McMann

RW: Mitch Marner
RW: William Nylander
RW: Max Domi

D: Morgan Rielly
D: Chris Tanev
D: Oliver Ekman-Larsson
D: Jake McCabe

G: Joseph Woll

If you assume that there are 6 remaining forward spots, 3 remaining defense spots and 1 remaining goalie spot that are not part of the core, you expect free agency to take care of at least 1/3 of those spots, with 2/3 of the remaining spots being filled by the prospect pool. Let's call that 4 forwards, 2 defense and 0 goalies that the prospect pool has to produce of the next few years.

Now let's look at the prospects in the system that I think have a reasonable to good chance of making the NHL in the coming years, and try to project where they might slot into the lineup.

Forwards
LW/RW: Eastan Cowan (Top 6)
RW: Nikita Grebenkin (Middle 6)
C: Fraser Minten (Bottom 6)
C: Alex Steeves (4th line)
LW/C Ryan Tverberg (Bottom 6)
LW/C Jacob Quillan (4th line)

Defense
Ben Danford (Bottom 4)
Topi Niemela (Bottom 4)
Noah Chadwick (Bottom 4)
Cade Webber (3rd pair)

Goalies
Dennis Hildeby (potential starter)
Artur Akhtyamov (potential starter)

Obviously, not all those guys will make it. There will also be 1 or 2 guys that I missed that wind up becoming players, but the reality is that the prospect pool is actually fairly respectable given how few players it needs to produce in the coming years to keep Toronto strong. Yes, you can make the argument that there isn't much projected top 6 talent in the forward pool, nor is there any top pairing defensive talent in the defense pool, but there also aren't many spots to fit those guys. Between Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Domi, Knies and Tavares, the top 6 forward spots look to be mostly filled for the foreseeable future. The same thing goes on defense. Rielly and Tanev are expected to be 1LD and 1RD for the foreseeable future and there looks to adequate current roster talent to fill out the 2nd pair. Therefore, we're really talking about the bottom pair and I' pretty comfortable with those options.

Thanks for this, it is an interesting and relevant way to look at our prospects and what we need from them. I would say that the outlook might even be a bit more positive than you paint.

You mention we will need 6F 3D and 1G and that 1/3 of these may come from FA. One of two of these free agents could be too end guys, say a 2C or a top six winger if Nylander shifts to C successfully. Getting one or two top end pieces (F or D) allows some of cor pieces to "slot down", say Tavares or Tanev, as they get older and reduces the requirement for prospects to quickly fill top and roles.

You left out some tweeners that could play a role also. Holmberg, Robertson, Dewar, Liljegren and Benoit are all young enough to continue to grow into core pieces. If not, their trades my add return that would show up as named players or prospects in this model.

Also, and I know you said you may have missed a name or two. I would add Hirvonen as a bottom six F option, not a sure thing but another iron in the fire.

So what does this look like:

Knies Matthews Domi
XXXXX Nylander Marner
Tavares YYYYY McMann
Dewar ZZZZZ AAAAA
BBBBB

Rielly CCCCC
McCabe Tanev
OEL Liljegren
Benoit

Woll
DDDDD

XXXXX = FA, or Cowan, Grebenkin, Robertson, or Holmberg
YYYYY = Minten, Cowan, Grebenkin, Robertson or Holmberg (JT can be C or LW)
ZZZZZ and AAAAA = Minten, Quillan, Grebenkin, Holmberg, Steeves, Tverberg, or Hirvonen (Dewar can play C or LW)

CCCCC = FA or Niemela, with the rest of our prospects having to win jobs and knock people out

DDDDD = Hildeby or Akhtyamov

We actually may have a lot of competition among prospects for very few openings and this is a great thing. If we end up with a few of these guys making the jump we end up with them as trading chips or pushing other guys to that status.

Our cap space is pretty good too in support of the FA objectives. The cap keeps going up by at least $5M per year and that will cover raises for Knies, McCabe and even Marner. JT coming off a being resigned at a discount is a big save, Kampf and Jarñkrok and possibly Liljegren and Stolarz being replaced by league minimum ELC guys provides a good amount of cap flexibility too.
 

The Iceman

Registered User
Sep 22, 2007
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Fine move. Replaces Clune as the PP coach
WHY do teams have assistant coaches that do not line up to their playing strengths (Or coaching experience)

Clune seems like he would be a PK coach not a PP coach.
Same with Guy Boucher put in charge of Leafs PP. He is known as a lock down defensive coach.

Sullivan helping the PP seems 100% like a great idea.
 

aingefan

Registered User
Feb 27, 2008
5,189
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WHY do teams have assistant coaches that do not line up to their playing strengths (Or coaching experience)

Clune seems like he would be a PK coach not a PP coach.
Same with Guy Boucher put in charge of Leafs PP. He is known as a lock down defensive coach.

Sullivan helping the PP seems 100% like a great idea.
I don’t know how much stock to put into this, but he was also a smaller offense first guy like a number of Marlies…so he might be good example on that side of things?
He was pretty dynamic.
 

Folignos Helmet

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Sep 4, 2020
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Anyone know which of our fringe roster players can be claimed on waivers if/when they get cut in camp?

I think I read Steeves. Timmins I think for sure, maybe the other vets, but any other younger players?

This might be a place to target another team during camp cuts for a forward piece if Robbie doesn't sign.
 

notbias

Registered User
Feb 16, 2017
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Anyone know which of our fringe roster players can be claimed on waivers if/when they get cut in camp?

I think I read Steeves. Timmins I think for sure, maybe the other vets, but any other younger players?

This might be a place to target another team during camp cuts for a forward piece if Robbie doesn't sign.


Probably the best resource.

All these guys require waivers: Timmins, Steeves, Rifai (I like him more than most), Holmberg, and Dewar.

Benoit too, but I assume he has a spot guaranteed, not sure he did when Hakanpaa was rumoured.

Mattinen is waiver exempt which is nice.

Only roster player with waiver exemption is Knies.
 
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Folignos Helmet

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Sep 4, 2020
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Probably the best resource.

All these guys require waivers: Timmins, Steeves, Rifai (I like him more than most), Holmberg, and Dewar.

Benoit too, but I assume he has a spot guaranteed, not sure he did when Hakanpaa was rumoured.

Mattinen is waiver exempt which is nice.

Only roster player with waiver exemption is Knies.
Seems Abbruzesse as well.
I dont think we have anyone others would claim. But maybe someone interesting will pop loose eslewhere.
 

aingefan

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Feb 27, 2008
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Probably the best resource.

All these guys require waivers: Timmins, Steeves, Rifai (I like him more than most), Holmberg, and Dewar.

Benoit too, but I assume he has a spot guaranteed, not sure he did when Hakanpaa was rumoured.

Mattinen is waiver exempt which is nice.

Only roster player with waiver exemption is Knies.
Interesting.
I checked capfriendly for Marlie waiver eligibility before it went dark, and posted. Only Steeves and Abruzzese were waiver eligible of the Marlies, none on the D.
Now that would include Mermis and Myers, I presume.
 

aingefan

Registered User
Feb 27, 2008
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It would be nice if they placed him on the Marlies rather than an overage year.
You’d think he’d done enough to garner interest from other teams at least on an AHL deal?
Would he rather play junior than AHL for another organization?
 

IceColdBear

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Apr 5, 2016
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Looking at Oshawa's roster - is Luca D'amato expected to return as an overager?

If so, Danford will probably have a tough time getting a chance on the PP behind him and Marrelli.

Obviously that's not the strength of his game, but it would be nice if he was able to work on his puck skills a bit this season and play in all situations.

Did Danford get looks on the PP last year?
 

stickty111

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Jan 23, 2017
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