Prospect Info: Marlies & Prospect Discussion

[Stephen]

Agree - he has less competition for 3LD in Ottawa.

There is still a strong chance he’s the only player of the 3 in that trade that sticks in the NHL.

Kleven is a credible prospect. That type of player is what I typically think of as a “Western Conference” body organizations like Anaheim, LA, Arizona, Dallas, San Jose and St. Louis stereotypically always seem to have.

 

[ULF_55]

Time to eat crow, admit you were wrong, and apologize to Mr. Grebenkin.

@Zine

To be fair, the coach denied it.

It is now a known fact he was playing injured.
He wasn't even able to take the ice in Toronto earlier this summer.
He and a mate were drugged up so they could even play during the playoffs.
No surgery, but it was a serious injury he played through.

We can give @Zine a pass, speculation is rife with eating crow.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

By now I expected to see some progression. Considering there are few players we drafted years after are not pushing for roles

Not everyone develops at the same rate.

Keep in mind these kids are still only 21-22 yrs old and later round picks. Also they've only played one year in the AHL, some of them. In AA's case, he's just going into his first AHL season.

 

[notbias]

Kleven was made fun of when drafted with that Leaf pick but he’s definitely rounding out into an NHL possible big body defender. These kind of guys just get jobs because they can project onto bottom pairing roles. A Simon Benoit is more useful at the bottom of the depth chart than a Victor Mete for example.

This is not true, it varies far too much and the best hockey players are normally the ones who stick around.

Size is an asset, but it doesn't matter if you suck at hockey.

Florida just won with a below average sized bottom pairing.

Kleven is a credible prospect. That type of player is what I typically think of as a “Western Conference” body organizations like Anaheim, LA, Arizona, Dallas, San Jose and St. Louis stereotypically always seem to have.

He is 6'4 200lbs... he is not that big...

"Big bodied" usually just refers to low skill players.

 

[Stephen]

This is not true, it varies far too much and the best hockey players are normally the ones who stick around.

Size is an asset, but it doesn't matter if you suck at hockey.

Florida just won with a below average sized bottom pairing.



He is 6'4 200lbs... he is not that big...

"Big bodied" usually just refers to low skill players.

The idea of a skill vs size dichotomy is not really always A or B, but there dirty jobs that need to be done in any hockey game. Many of those tasks fall to guys lower in the line up. That is where size can be more useful than “skill.” That’s where a guy like Kleven could get a toe hold in the NHL more easily than a “skill guy” because he’s built to handle game situations where someone else is going to have a hard time. It’s not that complicated and it’s not a referendum on either.

 

[notbias]

The idea of a skill vs size dichotomy is not really always A or B, but there dirty jobs that need to be done in any hockey game. Many of those tasks fall to guys lower in the line up. That is where size can be more useful than “skill.” That’s where a guy like Kleven could get a toe hold in the NHL more easily than a “skill guy” because he’s built to handle game situations where someone else is going to have a hard time. It’s not that complicated and it’s not a referendum on either.

Dirty jobs can be done higher up the lineup, an example of that is Tanev.

The skilled jobs can be done lower down the lineup as well, an example of that is Ghost.

I agree that the low skilled players who do nothing other than PK are going to be in higher demand than a skilled PP specialist who doesn't do much else because of most organizational needs.

Usually, the top 4 is filled more with two way guys or play driving D than a bunch of guys like Tanev/Brodie.

I think we agree, I just think we likely disagree on Kleven being more useful... a #6 who PKs, is big, and generally useless outside of that is a dime a dozen and an easy UFA signing.

We were collecting these types last year.

 

[Americanadian]

Size is an asset, but it doesn't matter if you suck at hockey.

Florida just won with a below average sized bottom pairing.

Their bottom pairing was OEL(6'2)-Kulikov(6'1).

 

[notbias]

Their bottom pairing was OEL(6'2)-Kulikov(6'1).

Yes, so two average players who are below average in weight... this means they are?

Kampf is the size of OEL and Timmins is slightly bigger than Kulikov.

 

[Americanadian]

Yes, so two average players who are below average in weight... this means they are?

Kampf is the size of OEL and Timmins is slightly bigger than Kulikov.

So you're saying that Kulikov at 6'1, 201 lbs and OEL at 6'2, 191 lbs are "undersized" NHL defenseman?

 

[notbias]

So you're saying that Kulikov at 6'1, 201 lbs and OEL at 6'2, 191 lbs are "undersized" NHL defenseman?

No, they are a below average bottom pairing in terms of size... they are average at best.

You are using the term undersized... we are discussing large D and these two are far from that.

 

[Americanadian]

No, they are a below average bottom pairing in terms of size... they are average at best.

You are using the term undersized... we are discussing large D and these two are far from that.

My apologies - I misquoted your original post of "below-average" sized as "under" sized. What is the difference between "below average" and "under"? Also - do you have data on bottom pairings that lead you to the conclusion?

 

[Stephen]

Dirty jobs can be done higher up the lineup, an example of that is Tanev.

The skilled jobs can be done lower down the lineup as well, an example of that is Ghost.

I agree that the low skilled players who do nothing other than PK are going to be in higher demand than a skilled PP specialist who doesn't do much else because of most organizational needs.

Usually, the top 4 is filled more with two way guys or play driving D than a bunch of guys like Tanev/Brodie.

I think we agree, I just think we likely disagree on Kleven being more useful... a #6 who PKs, is big, and generally useless outside of that is a dime a dozen and an easy UFA signing.

We were collecting these types last year.

I don’t think Tyler Kleven is a very unique or atypical kind of defensive defense prospect. Big bodies fit certain roles and teams will promote them to fill out rosters. The only reason why we even talk about him is the Hirvonen and Niemela trade down play which was hailed as genius on draft day 2020 so everyone’s invested.

 

[notbias]

My apologies - I misquoted your original post of "below-average" sized as "under" sized. What is the difference between "below average" and "under"? Also - do you have data on bottom pairings that lead you to the conclusion?

NYT says in 2021 it was 202.3 for a D, another site says the same (slightly more).

Undersized sounds like they are significantly smaller or that they are in the NHL despite being an anomaly.

Anyway, my point was that OEL and Kulikov are not large, they are average at best.

I don’t think Tyler Kleven is a very unique or atypical kind of defensive defense prospect. Big bodies fit certain roles and teams will promote them to fill out rosters. The only reason why we even talk about him is the Hirvonen and Niemela trade down play which was hailed as genius on draft day 2020 so everyone’s invested.

Yes, players are put on a roster to fill holes... just like last year we could have used a puck mover like Niemela since we had a roster full of Klevens and it neutered our offensive ability.

 

[Stephen]

NYT says in 2021 it was 202.3 for a D, another site says the same (slightly more).

Undersized sounds like they are significantly smaller or that they are in the NHL despite being an anomaly.

Anyway, my point was that OEL and Kulikov are not large, they are average at best.



Yes, players are put on a roster to fill holes... just like last year we could have used a puck mover like Niemela since we had a roster full of Klevens and it neutered our offensive ability.

If Niemela can survive a heavy NHL forecheck and still play to his transition game strengths he’ll have an NHL job. If you’re skilled but can’t execute you won’t be in the NHL.

 

[Americanadian]

Anyway, my point was that OEL and Kulikov are not large, they are average at best.

Average sized I won't quibble with. I'm not sure if this makes Kleven more or less likely to be a regular NHLer.

 

[aingefan]

Before last year, the team was reluctant to give many prospects legit auditions.
Maybe after having some success integrating young/less established forwards last year, the team will do more trial and error on the D side….though maybe not this year.

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

Has the prospect tournament happened yet? Or does anyone know when it is.

Traverse city tournament. I know they aren't playing in the one but they are playing in a different one this year right?

Nevermind found it on my own.

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/latest-news/maple-leafs-rookie-challenge-and-development-camp-dates-released-

 

[ULF_55]

Before last year, the team was reluctant to give many prospects legit auditions.
Maybe after having some success integrating young/less established forwards last year, the team will do more trial and error on the D side….though maybe not this year.

Prospects are a year older.
They have a new coach who ...

 

[Mess]

The Toronto Maple Leafs' "NHL Pipeline Ranking" is rapidly rising, according to The Athletic's Corey Pronman.​

There's no question that the Maple Leafs have been hard up for draft capital in recent years after former GM Kyle Dubas emptied the cupboard prior to being relieved of his duties in favour of new GM Brad Treliving, who was hired during the 2023 off-season.

Last year, around this time, The Athletic had the Maple Leafs ranked 27th in the NHL Pipeline Rankings. However, this year, thanks to the growth of several key young players within the organization, including Matthew Knies, Easton Cowan and Fraser Minten, along with the selection of right-shot D Ben Danford in this year's draft, Pronman has the Leafs moving up to the 22nd rank among the 32 NHL franchises.
A big reason for the boost in Pronman's rankings was the emergence of Easton Cowan and the breakout year that he had in the OHL last season. His 96-point campaign earned him regular season MVP honours, and his 34-point playoffs led to the kid from Mount Brydges, Ontario winning an OHL championship and being named Playoffs MVP as well.​

​

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5633124/2024/08/27/toronto-maple-leafs-nhl-prospect-pipeline-rankings-2024/?source=user_shared_article

 

[Americanadian]

Worth noting from the Atheltic article today that the only players worthy of a write-up were Knies, Cowan, Danford, Minten, Grebenkin. Niemela was an honorable mention.

 

[ULF_55]

Worth noting from the Atheltic article today that the only players worthy of a write-up were Knies, Cowan, Danford, Minten, Grebenkin. Niemela was an honorable mention.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5633124/2024/08/27/toronto-maple-leafs-nhl-prospect-pipeline-rankings-2024/

​

Has a chance to play​

Topi Niemela is a very smart defenseman who skates well enough and has shown two-way value as a pro. Given his average-size frame, whether the offense in his game is special enough to make him a legit power-play guy in the NHL is to be determined. Miroslav Holinka is a good skater with decent size and a strong skill level, although his hockey sense is average. Chadwick is a tall defenseman with legit offensive tools. He has the hand skills to beat opponents with skill frequently. He makes a lot of plays, can run a power play and makes a lot of smart decisions with the puck at both ends. Chadwick projects to score versus men, but whether he can make enough stops is a minor question. He’s a heavy skater, which is why he was a mid round pick, and he’s not overly physical.

 

[Fogelhund]

""

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Worth noting from the Atheltic article today that the only players worthy of a write-up were Knies, Cowan, Danford, Minten, Grebenkin. Niemela was an honorable mention.

At least they mentioned Grebenkin. I've seen prospect rankings that don't even list him in our top 10. Guy keeps getting slept on.

Hildeby too. Guy has been solid in Sweden and in the AHL and should be regarded higher

 

[Apex Predator]

At least they mentioned Grebenkin. I've seen prospect rankings that don't even list him in our top 10. Guy keeps getting slept on.

Hildeby too. Guy has been solid in Sweden and in the AHL and should be regarded higher

I’m not here to disagree with you because I think both become NHL players. We’ve said things in the past about this prospect is getting slept on (or a variation of that saying)and then they don’t amount to anything

I remember how much people were sleeping on Josh Leibovitz, Matt Finn, Jermey Bracco, Dmitry Timashov, Filip Kral,Michael Koster.

Now it’s Ryan Tvberg,Topi, Hilldeby and Grebonkin. I hope these guys work out.

 

[Fogelhund]

I’m not here to disagree with you because I think both become NHL players. We’ve said things in the past about this prospect is getting slept on (or a variation of that saying)and then they don’t amount to anything

I remember how much people were sleeping on Josh Leibovitz, Matt Finn, Jermey Bracco, Dmitry Timashov, Filip Kral,Michael Koster.

Now it’s Ryan Tvberg,Topi, Hilldeby and Grebonkin. I hope these guys work out.

Did you mean Leivo?

Tverberg doesn't belong in the same sentence as Hildeby or Grebenkin at this point. Niemela put up more points than Tverberg did last year... same age, but Niemela is a D.

Hildeby has been excellent in the SHL, and had very good rookie numbers last year in the AHL. He's got a ways to go still, but he is showing promise for sure.

Grebenkin however is someone I think we should be excited about. Here are the all time 20 year stats records in the KHL.

20-Year Old KHL Players - Regular Season Stats

20-year old KHL player stats. KHL player statistics segmented by age group.

www.quanthockey.com

His points totals from last year are 5th all time. PPG 14th all time. Of course some guys don't make despite such production... such as Korshkov, but he is around Panarin level of production at the same age.

Of the guys you list, Bracco should have been a useful NHLer...except for the issues there, which seemed to be his downfall.