Prospect Info: Marlies & Prospect Discussion

[Stephen]

Looks like the Leafs are set to lose the rights to Veeti Miettinen.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Looks like the Leafs are set to lose the rights to Veeti Miettinen.

That's him and Lisowsky that they said Thanks but no thanks on.

 

[Stephen]

That's him and Lisowsky that they said Thanks but no thanks on.

I know Lisowsky is from a later draft but man fan favorite 2020 draft class is looking like a horror show.

 

[4thline]

I know Lisowsky is from a later draft but man fan favorite 2020 draft class is looking like a horror show.

Is it, or does having 6 picks after 160 make things look worse than they really were?

Amirov (RIP) was tracking well. Hirvonen/Niemela/Ahkyamov/Villeneuve/Tverberg are all still prospects with a chance of games. The only "miss" outside of rounds 6 and 7 was Ovchinnikov in... round 5

 

[Stephen]

Is it, or does having 6 picks after 160 make things look worse than they really were?

Amirov (RIP) was tracking well. Hirvonen/Niemela/Ahkyamov/Villeneuve/Tverberg are all still prospects with a chance of games. The only "miss" outside of rounds 6 and 7 was Ovchinnikov in... round 5

The pace and path of progression for most of these guys and the depth requirements of the real roster are quite misaligned. Not a lot to really look forward to.

 

[ULF_55]

The pace and path of progression for most of these guys and the depth requirements of the real roster are quite misaligned. Not a lot to really look forward to.

All teams are limited to a number of contracts.

Which means all teams will have to lose picks.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I know Lisowsky is from a later draft but man fan favorite 2020 draft class is looking like a horror show.

Well, yeah a guy died from brain cancer.

 

[Byron Bitz]

The pace and path of progression for most of these guys and the depth requirements of the real roster are quite misaligned. Not a lot to really look forward to.

I’m quite high on Niemela

 

[Martin Skoula]

Well, yeah a guy died from brain cancer.

Hirvonen also almost lost an eye and lost a bunch of time to that. In a normal development world we have 6mil freed up to spend on defense because Amirov is doing Bertuzzi’s job for ELC money and Hirvonen is close enough that we dump Jarnkrok to open up a spot for him.

 

[LaPlante94]

Hirvonen also almost lost an eye and lost a bunch of time to that. In a normal development world we have 6mil freed up to spend on defense because Amirov is doing Bertuzzi’s job for ELC money and Hirvonen is close enough that we dump Jarnkrok to open up a spot for him.

Amirov isn't doing Bertuzzis job. Completely different skillsets and people need to stop thinking players like Amirov can do what Bertuzzi does to help out our skilled guys. Hirvonen hasn't even played a full season in the AHL and hasn't dominated down there and we're gonna open up a spot for him already. Not saying it's not gonna happen because he has looked good at times but we have guys like Steeves, Abruzzesse and even Tverberg who might be ahead of him atm for who'll get a shot. Bellows might even have a better chance atm after his season with the Marlies, even though I think we'd need to sign him again. It'd also be nice to see our prospects dominate in the AHL and have a good season because the Marlies for the last few years have looked average at best to very bad.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Amirov isn't doing Bertuzzis job. Completely different skillsets and people need to stop thinking players like Amirov can do what Bertuzzi does to help out our skilled guys. Hirvonen hasn't even played a full season in the AHL and hasn't dominated down there and we're gonna open up a spot for him already. Not saying it's not gonna happen because he has looked good at times but we have guys like Steeves, Abruzzesse and even Tverberg who might be ahead of him atm for who'll get a shot. Bellows might even have a better chance atm after his season with the Marlies, even though I think we'd need to sign him again. It'd also be nice to see our prospects dominate in the AHL and have a good season because the Marlies for the last few years have looked average at best to very bad.

Bertuzzi isn’t doing Bertuzzi’s job, 40 points for a D+4 with 5 years of pro experience isn’t a high bar to clear. Re Hirvonen I said if he had a normal development process and didn’t lose a lot of time to serious freak injuries. These guys were coming out of pro leagues and didn’t need the same 3+ years of AHL seasoning the CHL/NCAA guys do, it’s not a stretch to expect them to play middle 6 roles 3-4 years post draft had tragedy not struck.

 

[LaPlante94]

Bertuzzi isn’t doing Bertuzzi’s job, 40 points for a D+4 with 5 years of pro experience isn’t a high bar to clear. Re Hirvonen I said if he had a normal development process and didn’t lose a lot of time to serious freak injuries. These guys were coming out of pro leagues and didn’t need the same 3+ years of AHL seasoning the CHL/NCAA guys do, it’s not a stretch to expect them to play middle 6 roles 3-4 years post draft had tragedy not struck.

Bert had a slow start and finished strong which is a normal thing for new players on new teams. Even with him struggling to score every line he played on was our best line consistently and that was because of the work Bertuzzi puts in, kid of like what Hyman provides on the forecheck. So again, Bertuzzi did his job and maybe watch the games instead of the stat sheet and you'd see how well he does his job for his linemates. Hirvonen was like 5'9 170 when we drafted him and his numbers in the years after drafting him didn't increase by that much at all. Sure they're respectable for his age but this past season was the first season he had issues with injuries as far as I know and he still played 37 games and put up 13 points. For someone who played in Mens leagues already I wouldn't say that's great production for a 21 year old in the AHL. Look at Robertson who played in the CHL. He put up 2 fewer points and only played 9 games in the AHL and they are the same age. Robertson has dealt with far more injuries ruining his development much more than Hirvonen has. Wanna say it was his first year in the league? Ok fine, Robertson still put up better numbers as a 18 year old his 1st year in the AHL. Both were literally drafted the same spot of the draft as well. There's levels to this and comparing those 2 just goes to show that playing in the Mens league in Finland and Juniors over here doesn't really make a difference and won't speed up your process to make the NHL.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Bert had a slow start and finished strong which is a normal thing for new players on new teams. Even with him struggling to score every line he played on was our best line consistently and that was because of the work Bertuzzi puts in, kid of like what Hyman provides on the forecheck. So again, Bertuzzi did his job and maybe watch the games instead of the stat sheet and you'd see how well he does his job for his linemates. Hirvonen was like 5'9 170 when we drafted him and his numbers in the years after drafting him didn't increase by that much at all. Sure they're respectable for his age but this past season was the first season he had issues with injuries as far as I know and he still played 37 games and put up 13 points. For someone who played in Mens leagues already I wouldn't say that's great production for a 21 year old in the AHL. Look at Robertson who played in the CHL. He put up 2 fewer points and only played 9 games in the AHL and they are the same age. Robertson has dealt with far more injuries ruining his development much more than Hirvonen has. Wanna say it was his first year in the league? Ok fine, Robertson still put up better numbers as a 18 year old his 1st year in the AHL. Both were literally drafted the same spot of the draft as well. There's levels to this and comparing those 2 just goes to show that playing in the Mens league in Finland and Juniors over here doesn't really make a difference and won't speed up your process to make the NHL.

Hirvonen played 2 games for the Marlies and then almost lost an eye lol, I would imagine that might have something to do with the production in the other 35 games. Something about only looking at the stat sheet right?

 

[daethfromabove1979]

Hirvonen played 2 games for the Marlies and then almost lost an eye lol, I would imagine that might have something to do with the production in the other 35 games. Something about only looking at the stat sheet right?

Have you also considered that Hirvonen just isn't very good? He's small, slow, and doesn't put up points. His Finnish league stats are pretty bad but let's pretend like he's a decent prospect, he's not.

2020 draft is pretty sad, except for maybe Niemela and Tverberg if we are lucky. I believe every other team has players from the 2020 draft that have made the NHL, Toronto has 0 games played from their class.

 

[4thline]

The pace and path of progression for most of these guys and the depth requirements of the real roster are quite misaligned. Not a lot to really look forward to.

Hirvonen's injury set him back for sure, but him and Tverberg both have a "pace and path of progression" that's more favourable than our comparable previous depth graduates, with play styles and strengths that lend themselves very well to NHL depth requirements.

At the end of D+4/U22
Hyman was a very mediocre NCAAr with good two way game
Engvall was finishing up in the SHL
Moore was coming off a very similar rookie AHL campaign to Tverberg
Komarov was playing his last year in Finland, still had 3 years in Russia before crossing the pond.

AA is a long term goalie prospect. For comparison- Joe Woll was drafted 4 years prior.
Villeneuve and Niemela are more boom/busty coinflips but both RHD's showing well in the AHL.

Maybe we still yet strike out. But it's not like we're talking about the 17 draft where 4 years out it was already clear that we're getting nothing but Liljegren and a fools hope that Kara would be a late bloomer in the KHL.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Have you also considered that Hirvonen just isn't very good? He's small, slow, and doesn't put up points. His Finnish league stats are pretty bad but let's pretend like he's a decent prospect, he's not.

2020 draft is pretty sad, except for maybe Niemela and Tverberg if we are lucky. I believe every other team has players from the 2020 draft that have made the NHL, Toronto has 0 games played from their class.

Still early.

The leafs had 9 selections from the 4th round on. 11 out of 128 players take. Have played a game. If you take that 8% and apply it to the 9 the Leafs have, one player becoming a regular is a moderate success. Tverberg is the most likely at this point but Villeneuve has potential.

Hard to be too critical of that draft after what happened to Amirov. hirvonen looks like not much but Niemela could make the jump.

Need to see big steps from those few guys this season though, this is an important year

 

[Stephen]

Hirvonen's injury set him back for sure, but him and Tverberg both have a "pace and path of progression" that's more favourable than our comparable previous depth graduates, with play styles and strengths that lend themselves very well to NHL depth requirements.

At the end of D+4/U22
Hyman was a very mediocre NCAAr with good two way game
Engvall was finishing up in the SHL
Moore was coming off a very similar rookie AHL campaign to Tverberg
Komarov was playing his last year in Finland, still had 3 years in Russia before crossing the pond.

AA is a long term goalie prospect. For comparison- Joe Woll was drafted 4 years prior.
Villeneuve and Niemela are more boom/busty coinflips but both RHD's showing well in the AHL.

Maybe we still yet strike out. But it's not like we're talking about the 17 draft where 4 years out it was already clear that we're getting nothing but Liljegren and a fools hope that Kara would be a late bloomer in the KHL.

Yeah I like Tverberg. But not so much Hirvonen.

 

[Stephen]

Still early.

The leafs had 9 selections from the 4th round on. 11 out of 128 players take. Have played a game. If you take that 8% and apply it to the 9 the Leafs have, one player becoming a regular is a moderate success. Tverberg is the most likely at this point but Villeneuve has potential.

Hard to be too critical of that draft after what happened to Amirov. hirvonen looks like not much but Niemela could make the jump.

Need to see big steps from those few guys this season though, this is an important year

The thing that annoys me most about that draft is how hyped up the Hirvonen and Niemela trade down was. Looks like Kleven might be a player after all.

Never had an issue with the Amirov pick. Loved the upside, the recovery of the pick from Pittsburgh and seemed like a great kid. Absolute tragedy that goes beyond hockey.

Like Tverberg too. But don’t like much else from that draft class.

 

[francis246]

The thing that annoys me most about that draft is how hyped up the Hirvonen and Niemela trade down was. Looks like Kleven might be a player after all.

Never had an issue with the Amirov pick. Loved the upside, the recovery of the pick from Pittsburgh and seemed like a great kid. Absolute tragedy that goes beyond hockey.

Like Tverberg too. But don’t like much else from that draft class.

I’m still in the group of we should have taken Guhle or Schneider but I warmed up to Amirov, sad sad sad story.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I think realistically on Amirov, if he posted like 50-60 points, you maybe feel okay in either letting Nylander walk or you're 100% sure you can trade Marner, even though you should feel 95% sure (barring really bad trade offers).

Unfortunately Amirov's skillset could not do what Bertuzzi or Domi could do because there is an edge there.

 

[The Iceman]

I’m still in the group of we should have taken Guhle or Schneider but I warmed up to Amirov, sad sad sad story.

And it looked for those that watched that draft like Dubas tried right up to the very last second to move the Amirov pick for something.

Dubas looked frustrated to have to make a selection.

 

[LaPlante94]

Hirvonen played 2 games for the Marlies and then almost lost an eye lol, I would imagine that might have something to do with the production in the other 35 games. Something about only looking at the stat sheet right?

Yeah I'm sure they rushed him back so fast that it made him not be able to produce in the AHL. He came back healthy and still didn't produce a lot. His stats in the Finnish league suggest the same things. Did he have an eye injury over there too that hurt his production? He's a small guy so it's not gonna come easy for him. Robertson literally missed an entire season and still came back and produced more. He's also been injured way more and hasn't been able to train as much and still produces more. Some players just got it and some players just don't. Hirvonen shows flashes but he's 22 now who has been playing in Mens leagues since he was a teenager getting outproduced by players who played Junior and NCAA hockey over here. Tverberg was a 7th round pick the same draft and looks like he'll be a better player than him at the next level.

 

[LaPlante94]

I think realistically on Amirov, if he posted like 50-60 points, you maybe feel okay in either letting Nylander walk or you're 100% sure you can trade Marner, even though you should feel 95% sure (barring really bad trade offers).

Unfortunately Amirov's skillset could not do what Bertuzzi or Domi could do because there is an edge there.

Amirov would've been great on the 3rd line, especially if Nylander was on his other wing. 3 good scoring lines.

 

[Legion34]

Have you also considered that Hirvonen just isn't very good? He's small, slow, and doesn't put up points. His Finnish league stats are pretty bad but let's pretend like he's a decent prospect, he's not.

2020 draft is pretty sad, except for maybe Niemela and Tverberg if we are lucky. I believe every other team has players from the 2020 draft that have made the NHL, Toronto has 0 games played from their class.

Again. The top pick died.

That kind of changes things.

 

[Stephen]

I’m still in the group of we should have taken Guhle or Schneider but I warmed up to Amirov, sad sad sad story.

Agreed. At the time I wanted to trade up for Askarov, liked the positional fit of a Schneider, Guhle was a little off my radar and I was very happy with the Amirov pick. RIP.