Mark Stone: People want to see the Golden Knights crash and burn

[LeProspector]

I love when people say Vegas had a favourable expansion draft. When everyone thought Vegas was going to be a bottom feeder after the draft.

In reality, George McPhee made some really shrewd moves and took advantage of some desperate general managers. (Who panicked for little reason) Seattle had the same expansion rules a few seasons later, and they haven’t done anything since.

Anyone that says Vegas had “a favourable expansion draft” are lying to themselves to make themselves feel better because an expansion team hoisted the cup before they’re deadbeat franchise did and are rewriting history as a result.

 

[coooldude]

Anyone that says Vegas had “a favourable expansion draft” are lying to themselves to make themselves feel better because an expansion team hoisted the cup before they’re deadbeat franchise did and are rewriting history as a result.

Their**

And you're right, I much prefer starting a franchise with a minor league affiliate as half your roster, as well as being denied the 1st overall pick because Lindros can't go to an expansion team (or Quebec).

Follow that with 30 years of failure and underperformance and you've got yourself real character building potential.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Vegas? The team? I don’t really think of them at all.

same, vegas is irrelevant

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Team with an already massive unfair tax advantage that uses LTIR loophole to further cheat, I find it truly inconceivable that people hate your team, Mark.

 

[north21]

I love when people say Vegas had a favourable expansion draft. When everyone thought Vegas was going to be a bottom feeder after the draft.

In reality, George McPhee made some really shrewd moves and took advantage of some desperate general managers. (Who panicked for little reason) Seattle had the same expansion rules a few seasons later, and they haven’t done anything since.

Anyone that says Vegas had “a favourable expansion draft” are lying to themselves to make themselves feel better because an expansion team hoisted the cup before they’re deadbeat franchise did and are rewriting history as a result.

They had a massive edge over all previous expansion teams, but have to give them credit for taking advantage.

 

[The Hockey Tonk Man]

They had a massive edge over all previous expansion teams, but have to give them credit for taking advantage.

I dunno. I thought some of the picks they made were horrible. Also thought they were gonna be garbage but proved me & a lot of other people wrong.

I’m not a fan of the way they’ve treated some of their players, or the way they’ve used the ltir/activating guys to start the playoffs. But there’s other teams that play that game as well

 

[Laus723]

I love when people say Vegas had a favourable expansion draft. When everyone thought Vegas was going to be a bottom feeder after the draft.

In reality, George McPhee made some really shrewd moves and took advantage of some desperate general managers. (Who panicked for little reason) Seattle had the same expansion rules a few seasons later, and they haven’t done anything since.

Anyone that says Vegas had “a favourable expansion draft” are lying to themselves to make themselves feel better because an expansion team hoisted the cup before they’re deadbeat franchise did and are rewriting history as a result.

Incorrect. While they for sure “took advantage,” they had much favorable expansion draft than every other expansion team in league history. Seattle had the same and weren’t as shrewd.

 

[Hobble]

Incorrect. While they for sure “took advantage,” they had much favorable expansion draft than every other expansion team in league history. Seattle had the same and weren’t as shrewd.

Didn’t Seattle also set their price for dealing with teams super high during their draft, hoping to earn extra capital like Vegas, but then teams realized it didn’t make sense to pay those prices after seeing Vegas make off like bandits.

Also, F*** Vegas.

 

[Laus723]

Didn’t Seattle also set their price for dealing with teams super high during their draft, hoping to earn extra capital like Vegas, but then teams realized it didn’t make sense to pay those prices after seeing Vegas make off like bandits.

Also, F*** Vegas.

I believe that was the case.

Agreed.

 

[north21]

I dunno. I thought some of the picks they made were horrible. Also thought they were gonna be garbage but proved me & a lot of other people wrong.

I’m not a fan of the way they’ve treated some of their players, or the way they’ve used the ltir/activating guys to start the playoffs. But there’s other teams that play that game as well

Previous expansion teams were given scraps.

28 wins

Columbus Blue Jackets 2000-01 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 2000-01 Columbus Blue Jackets playing in the NHL.

www.hockeydb.com

25 wins

Minnesota Wild 2000-01 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 2000-01 Minnesota Wild playing in the NHL.

www.hockeydb.com

Compared to this team with 51 wins.

Vegas Golden Knights 2017-18 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 2017-18 Vegas Golden Knights playing in the NHL.

www.hockeydb.com

 

[north21]

It looks like back in 2000 they could protect 15 players, now it's 8 or 9.

 

[nightonthesun]

There are also like 30 other teams I’d love to see crash and burn, so, uh.

 

[Viqsi]

I love when people say Vegas had a favourable expansion draft. When everyone thought Vegas was going to be a bottom feeder after the draft.

In reality, George McPhee made some really shrewd moves and took advantage of some desperate general managers. (Who panicked for little reason) Seattle had the same expansion rules a few seasons later, and they haven’t done anything since.

Anyone that says Vegas had “a favourable expansion draft” are lying to themselves to make themselves feel better because an expansion team hoisted the cup before they’re deadbeat franchise did and are rewriting history as a result.

Compare it to the expansion drafts teams like the Blue Jackets got and then try again. They absolutely had a much more favorable expansion draft, and that's what helped McPhee pull off as much as he did.

 

[LeProspector]

Compare it to the expansion drafts teams like the Blue Jackets got and then try again. They absolutely had a much more favorable expansion draft, and that's what helped McPhee pull off as much as he did.

So it’s a crabs in a barrel type of thing?

 

[Viqsi]

Between the favourable expansion draft selection, and the LTIRing, it's not really a surprise that fans from around the league aren't big on Vegas. Seattle had the same draft rules, so obviously that wasn't the only reason Vegas succeded, but it sure helped.

I'm sure some expansion teams like San Jose and Ottawa who were brought into the league off the worst of the worst of other teams had some issues with the last 2 expansion drafts.

San Jose's expansion draft was bizarre because it was partially a raid of the North Stars' depth. Ottawa and Tampa had a rougher time of it a year later, especially since there were no "games played" or significant positional restrictions so they got a lot of crap; every team got to protect one goaltender and 14 skaters, and that also applied the year after that to Florida and Anaheim, who got to pick from the rejects left. Then five years later, the Preds (and a year after that, the Thrashers) got to pick from teams with a few more "minimum games played" requirements so they wouldn't be utterly screwed, but otherwise it was still 15 players (1 goaltender, 5 defensemen, 9 forwards) or 12 if you wanted to keep two goaltenders (3 defensemen, 7 forwards). And after that, the "rejects left" pile went to the Blue Jackets and the Wild.

(I can't find confirmation of this, but it also looks like Florida and Anaheim might have gotten even more screwed, because I can't see any evidence of the "first and second year pros are exempt" rule before that expansion draft. So they had an already reduced pool (from expansion drafts the last two years) cut back even more.)

Then Vegas comes along, and they get the 7F/3D/1G protection rules PLUS even more "games played" experience requirements for exposed guys.


Now, if you go through that history, you might notice that four teams in particular got especially screwed coming out of the gate by the circumstances of their expansion drafts - Florida, Anaheim, Columbus, and Minnesota. Now look at the 2017 draft and review - what teams, because of the timing of their cores' development and the expansion of the required talent pool, got the most screwed by the Vegas draft and provided much of their future core? Florida (Smith and Marchessault), Anaheim (Theodore), Columbus (Karlsson), and Minnesota (Tuch). What a shocking coincidence, no?

So yeah, some of us have MUCH more right to want to see Vegas crash and burn and suffer and fail than others.

 

[Viqsi]

So it’s a crabs in a barrel type of thing?

More like a "we got screwed when it was our chance, and then we got screwed AGAIN when it was their chance, so f*** everything."

 

[Chainshot]

San Jose's expansion draft was bizarre because it was partially a raid of the North Stars' depth. Ottawa and Tampa had a rougher time of it a year later, especially since there were no "games played" or significant positional restrictions so they got a lot of crap; every team got to protect one goaltender and 14 skaters, and that also applied the year after that to Florida and Anaheim, who got to pick from the rejects left. Then five years later, the Preds (and a year after that, the Thrashers) got to pick from teams with a few more "minimum games played" requirements so they wouldn't be utterly screwed, but otherwise it was still 15 players (1 goaltender, 5 defensemen, 9 forwards) or 12 if you wanted to keep two goaltenders (3 defensemen, 7 forwards). And after that, the "rejects left" pile went to the Blue Jackets and the Wild.

(I can't find confirmation of this, but it also looks like Florida and Anaheim might have gotten even more screwed, because I can't see any evidence of the "first and second year pros are exempt" rule before that expansion draft. So they had an already reduced pool (from expansion drafts the last two years) cut back even more.)

Then Vegas comes along, and they get the 7F/3D/1G protection rules PLUS even more "games played" experience requirements for exposed guys.


Now, if you go through that history, you might notice that four teams in particular got especially screwed coming out of the gate by the circumstances of their expansion drafts - Florida, Anaheim, Columbus, and Minnesota. Now look at the 2017 draft and review - what teams, because of the timing of their cores' development and the expansion of the required talent pool, got the most screwed by the Vegas draft and provided much of their future core? Florida (Smith and Marchessault), Anaheim (Theodore), Columbus (Karlsson), and Minnesota (Tuch). What a shocking coincidence, no?

So yeah, some of us have MUCH more right to wanlt to see Vegas crash and burn and suffer and fail than others.

San Jose's franchise was considered the Gund's old franchise absorbed into the North Stars from Cleveland that began life as the Golden Seals. That was why they got a partial list of the Minnesota reserve list.

Agree with the rest of your points, just wanted to put in the tidbit about them separating the two franchises back into two franchises was why the Sharks got so much of the Stars reserves.

These latest expansion teams have been expensive buy-ins by new ownership. I'm sure they weren't going to go along with the old style rules that absolutely screwed expansion teams at the outset for a billion dollar investment.

 

[Viqsi]

San Jose's franchise was considered the Gund's old franchise absorbed into the North Stars from Cleveland that began life as the Golden Seals. That was why they got a partial list of the Minnesota reserve list.

Agree with the rest of your points, just wanted to put in the tidbit about them separating the two franchises back into two franchises was why the Sharks got so much of the Stars reserves.

These latest expansion teams have been expensive buy-ins by new ownership. I'm sure they weren't going to go along with the old style rules that absolutely screwed expansion teams at the outset for a billion dollar investment.

I'm quite aware, which is why my grudge is against Vegas rather than the NHL. (Or Seattle.)

 

[BagHead]

I love when people say Vegas had a favourable expansion draft. When everyone thought Vegas was going to be a bottom feeder after the draft.

In reality, George McPhee made some really shrewd moves and took advantage of some desperate general managers. (Who panicked for little reason) Seattle had the same expansion rules a few seasons later, and they haven’t done anything since.

Anyone that says Vegas had “a favourable expansion draft” are lying to themselves to make themselves feel better because an expansion team hoisted the cup before they’re deadbeat franchise did and are rewriting history as a result.

Both things can be true. Compared to all previous expansions, they had very favorable expansion draft conditions. The 2000 expansion allowed teams to select between two options: protecting 9 forwards, 5 defensemen, and 1 goalie or 7 forwards, 3 defensemen, and 2 goalies. This compares to Vegas's rules of 7 forwards, 3 defensemen and 1 goalie or 8 forwards/defensemen and 1 goalie.

So Vegas was allowed to select a player who was between 9th and 11th on a team's depth chart, while the 4 expansion teams around 2000 had to select from between 11th and 14th. This is the difference between drafting a few 2nd liners as your top-talent vs. drafting a few 3rd liners as your top-talent. To be fair, their ownership paid for this right to the tune of $500 million instead of the $80 million of the last draft (inflation adjusted would be about $121 million). They paid about 5x the price and got 2nd liners instead of 3rd. That's flirting close enough with pay-to-win that I understand why people hate the Golden Knights even without the LTIR luck (or "luck").

That said, you're right, nobody thought a team with 2nd line talent on their 1st line would be good. People underestimated how good some of those players could be when given an elevated role.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Mark seems a bit stupid. Did he finish high school?

 

[LaCarriere]

San Jose's franchise was considered the Gund's old franchise absorbed into the North Stars from Cleveland that began life as the Golden Seals. That was why they got a partial list of the Minnesota reserve list.

Agree with the rest of your points, just wanted to put in the tidbit about them separating the two franchises back into two franchises was why the Sharks got so much of the Stars reserves.

These latest expansion teams have been expensive buy-ins by new ownership. I'm sure they weren't going to go along with the old style rules that absolutely screwed expansion teams at the outset for a billion dollar investment.

I think it was more a case of they were bringing hockey into the desert, and the league knew it wasn't going to work out unless Vegas had a good shot of competing out of the gate, so the the hiked up the expansion fees in order to somewhat pay off the existing owners for more favourable expansion draft rules.

If Vegas had to select a bunch of 4th liners the team wouldn't have lasted 2 years In Vegas.

 

[Chainshot]

I think it was more a case of they were bringing hockey into the desert, and the league knew it wasn't going to work out unless Vegas had a good shot of competing out of the gate, so the the hiked up the expansion fees in order to somewhat pay off the existing owners for more favourable expansion draft rules.

If Vegas had to select a bunch of 4th liners the team wouldn't have lasted 2 years In Vegas.

Perhaps. It still looks like the league is more interested in milking a new owner out of that enormous expansion fee and they gave the concession of better expansion rules because of the cost. And it took the GM’s messing up royally in the first one to see the error of their ways And change how they were going to do it for the one for Seattle.

 

[KovalchukFistPump]

I love when people say Vegas had a favourable expansion draft. When everyone thought Vegas was going to be a bottom feeder after the draft.

In reality, George McPhee made some really shrewd moves and took advantage of some desperate general managers. (Who panicked for little reason) Seattle had the same expansion rules a few seasons later, and they haven’t done anything since.

Anyone that says Vegas had “a favourable expansion draft” are lying to themselves to make themselves feel better because an expansion team hoisted the cup before they’re deadbeat franchise did and are rewriting history as a result.

True, I was on here and everyone said they f'ed up by not taking some of the defensemen from Anaheim or Minnesota. Funny enough, the leftoever guys people thought Vegas would pick (Montour and Scandella) both ended up in Buffalo and did nothing there.

 

[matt trick]

Agree with my fellow Sharks, Blue Jackets, Wild, and Sens fans annoyed about how we got much lesser options to pick from (and the aforementioned Lindros rule.

That said, while Vegas' rules were a dramatic advantage compared to the shit the above teams got, much of the blame falls on the other 30 GMs outsmarting themselves. If the Ducks simply bought out Kevin Bieska, and Florida could have protected Smith, Marchessault and whichever of Petrovic and Pysyk they preferred than Vegas loses two-thirds their top line and top pairing D. Karlsson and Tuch worked out great, as well, but ultimately their teams were quite deep, so each going to lose someone good. Vegas deserved full marks for 'the vow', grabbing multiple firsts, and creating a development environment where underheralded guys could thrive, but what were Tallon and Bob Murray thinking...

Since the expansion draft, their ruthlessness in acquiring top talent (Stone, Pietro, Hanifin, Hertl) for oft-hoarded draft picks and building a culture people want to be a part of, have set a new standard.

 

[Bruce Granville]

Mark seems a bit stupid. Did he finish high school?

Yeah, he for sure finished school “high”…