Player Discussion: Mark S Discussion

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think how he approaches the game is the problem. It's hard to get buy in to play a hard all around game from everyone when your best player doesn't buy in. So in terms of overall team play yes I think he's a barrier to getting the team to play well as a whole. Ultimately the best result would be to somehow get through to him and get him to stop cheating and to play hard both ways. He may out up less points but I think he'd be less of a net negative and it would help set the tonne for the entire group.

This is JMO, but I think a player like Mark could put up more pts, not less, by playing a 200' game. It means he is not spending so many shifts hemmed in his own end. It means his side has possession of the puck more and it is very hard to score when the other team has the puck.

It may be counterintuitive to some. They obviously expect to score more by cheating for offense. But I don't think it necessarily works that way. Hockey is so much a team game that it is team play, not selfish play, that leads to goals for as well as fewer goals against.

 

[surixon]

This is JMO, but I think a player like Mark could put up more pts, not less, by playing a 200' game. It means he is not spending so many shifts hemmed in his own end. It means his side has possession of the puck more and it is very hard to score when the other team has the puck.

It may be counterintuitive to some. They obviously expect to score more by cheating for offense. But I don't think it necessarily works that way. Hockey is so much a team game that it is team play, not selfish play, that leads to goals for as well as fewer goals against.

I don't disagree with this. I think getting the puck back quicker and getting out of your end clearly and structurly increases the likelihood of sustained offense.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Yup, regardless of his fancy stats suckage since 2018, his points and role will create a huge void if its not replaced similarly. Just the sheer toi and qoc alone will be a huge challenge for PLD and Perfetti, unless the return nets someone who can play that role at least. By no means has to be a ppg player but it needs to be 15+ minute top 6 guy who can be in the 50-60 point range.

That’s not all they should get for him, but the package needs to include that type of player imo.

Not necessarily. You already referred to Perfetti. He could be that guy, at least within another year or two. Or other moves could be made that bring that top 6 C instead of Perfetti.

If we start by moving Scheifele, it may be necessary to make other major moves because of a domino effect.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Makes one wonder if Scheifele has been part of the problem for a while. And they kept him and jettisoned others instead. Make the golden boy happy 'cause there was no option at C.

I would have liked to sign Copp and trade Scheifele instead.

That would have had to have been done last off-season - when all but 1 of us were still optimistic.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Scheifele has a team of experts helping him, I highly doubt a sports psychologist isn't on his payroll.

Might that 'sports psychologist' be named Oates?

 

[Heldig]

That would have had to have been done last off-season - when all but 1 of us were still optimistic.

I was pretty optimistic after the moves made to add Dillon and Schmidt. I have been calling for a full scale coaching change for 3 years now. Chronic, system issues affect this team.

Now, the guy that should be our best player is looking like he wants to be anywhere but playing for the Jets. Will a new coaching staff right that ship for next season? Could be. I presume Chevy knows if Scheifele wants to be in Winnipeg. Probably find out this summer.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think it's a no-win situation with Scheifele.

I think he just needs to get out of Winnipeg and start somewhere new, maybe somewhere that doesn't have the same level of day to day scrutiny from everywhere. LA has a lot of youth in their system and they're starting to come together, they could be a good trading partner, though I don't know enough about them to know if Scheifele is a player they'd really be interested in.

The problem is that he'll likely rebound so well on another team that the Jets will lose any trade they make, but if they keep him, they'll get what they get now - a player that is very effective in the offensive zone and useless everywhere else.

Speaking of LAK - Scheifele for Vilardi + Grans. Vilardi hasn't taken off the way he was anticipated to. Partly lack of opportunity, I think. Still has 2C potential or, failing that very good 3C on a balanced 3rd line. I think Grans is a top pair RHD very soon and maybe even that true #1 Dman we have been wanting.

That may seem like a risky return to some and I don't entirely disagree. But I think we get at least 1 top level player out of it, or 1.5, and maybe 2. And we get a lot younger. With the picks and prospects we have it leaves us just the next starting goalie (still might be Helle) away from the next window which should be a lot longer than the last one was.

 

[Heldig]

Speaking of LAK - Scheifele for Vilardi + Grans. Vilardi hasn't taken off the way he was anticipated to. Partly lack of opportunity, I think. Still has 2C potential or, failing that very good 3C on a balanced 3rd line. I think Grans is a top pair RHD very soon and maybe even that true #1 Dman we have been wanting.

That may seem like a risky return to some and I don't entirely disagree. But I think we get at least 1 top level player out of it, or 1.5, and maybe 2. And we get a lot younger. With the picks and prospects we have it leaves us just the next starting goalie (still might be Helle) away from the next window which should be a lot longer than the last one was.

I would want more than that. Vilardi is a huge question mark.

 

[BrokerD]

Agree about Wiebe. I think he is barely above Sawyer when it comes to kissing TN butt. I can understand where he comes from on this somewhat, since his livelihood depends on having good access to the Jets and being generally on good terms. But on the Kenny and Renny show he often over rotates to defend or soft pedal criticism whereas Renny more oftern calls it like it is and is much more listenable in my opinion.

And on a side note, that heavy metal intro music they insist on playing to bring Wiebe in is so fricken annoying and kind of ironic because he does not personify heavy metal at all.

Now what the hell is going on with Schiefele? I'm working on it. But building an ark is first priority.

I agree about the intro music. Wiebe‘s got more of a Depeche Mode kinda vibe to him

 

[Ducky10]

Not necessarily. You already referred to Perfetti. He could be that guy, at least within another year or two. Or other moves could be made that bring that top 6 C instead of Perfetti.

If we start by moving Scheifele, it may be necessary to make other major moves because of a domino effect.

I mentioned Perfetti because he’s highly unlikely to be that guy in the next year, maybe two. It’s highlighting the reason they need to get someone who can reasonably fill a top 6 role to help take pressure off him and PLD, because like him or not, that’s what Scheifele allows. What other moves are the Jets going to make that brings in a top 6 C? I wouldn’t be moving any prospects to do it at this stage.

The broader point I was making is that Scheifele’s value is unlikely to be higher than it is right now and I don’t believe the Jets are likely to be a contender next year anyway. Keep him and you’re no further ahead but taking a risk by entering into his UFA year.

 

[johnnyonthspot]

I don't disagree with this. I think getting the puck back quicker and getting out of your end clearly and structurly increases the likelihood of sustained offense.

Just think about how many rushes McDavid or Drisediel or Crosby start from their own end.
His lack of effort getting back is painful as is his heading off the ice. I am dumbfounded by his play. I said trade him last year but now the media like Hustler and Wiebe are saying it. The Jets will not win the trade in what they get back kinda like the Copp trade but in the long run it should pay off with better team defence.

 

[johnnyonthspot]

I agree about the intro music. Wiebe‘s got more of a Depeche Mode kinda vibe to him

Agreed they do not need to play that song everytime. It is annoying and overused

 

[Mbraunm]

How about Scheif for Nico Hischier? Might be nice, but I doubt if the Devils would want Scheif to join their young core?

 

[Heldig]

I mentioned Perfetti because he’s highly unlikely to be that guy in the next year, maybe two. It’s highlighting the reason they need to get someone who can reasonably fill a top 6 role to help take pressure off him and PLD, because like him or not, that’s what Scheifele allows. What other moves are the Jets going to make that brings in a top 6 C? I wouldn’t be moving any prospects to do it at this stage.

The broader point I was making is that Scheifele’s value is unlikely to be higher than it is right now and I don’t believe the Jets are likely to be a contender next year anyway. Keep him and you’re no further ahead but taking a risk by entering into his UFA year.

And that is why I wanted to keep Copp. Keeping Copp gave the Jets options. Moving Scheifele would not have necessarily needed to net a top 6 C. Now it kind of does.

I like the idea of trading Scheifele and a D (Schmidt?) for a RHD such as Pulock and a 2/3 C such as Nelson.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

I mean to be fair - the team isn't any worse without Copp... but not better either.

I'm bummed out because he's our draft and develop success story - but I think Appleton can be too.

 

[Duke749]

I mean to be fair - the team isn't any worse without Copp... but not better either.

I'm bummed out because he's our draft and develop success story - but I think Appleton can be too.

Our whole team is full of successful draft and develop players. The hell are you talking about?

 

[Howard Chuck]

If (big if) 55 wants out of Winnipeg as his play indicates, what the hell is going on behind the scenes with the Jets that Laine had to go, 55 needs to go, Trouba, Chariot, Copp etc.

Maybe there is a common denominator that needs to be fixed instead of the massive exodus of talent.

Our management seems loyal to a fault and bends over backwards for anyone related to the team. Is it personalities?

I’m at a loss why Schief plays the way he does if he doesn’t want out, and why others seem to as well.

 

[Mbraunm]

How about Scheif for Nico Hischier?

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I mentioned Perfetti because he’s highly unlikely to be that guy in the next year, maybe two. It’s highlighting the reason they need to get someone who can reasonably fill a top 6 role to help take pressure off him and PLD, because like him or not, that’s what Scheifele allows. What other moves are the Jets going to make that brings in a top 6 C? I wouldn’t be moving any prospects to do it at this stage.

The broader point I was making is that Scheifele’s value is unlikely to be higher than it is right now and I don’t believe the Jets are likely to be a contender next year anyway. Keep him and you’re no further ahead but taking a risk by entering into his UFA year.

Agree with your last paragraph.

I'm not convinced Perfetti ever makes it at C in the NHL but if he does, I don't think it takes him all that long. One more year? Maybe less. He doesn't need to become a ppg 1C.

There are options, though 1 less with Copp gone. Play Wheeler at 2C for 1 year if nothing else works out. You already said we aren't contending next year anyway.

If you insist on a replacement top 6 C in the return we either lose the trade quite badly or we don't move Scheifele. If we can get a prospective C, great. If not, just make sure and get value. I would be happy with a return built on a top 2 RHD.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Our whole team is full of successful draft and develop players. The hell are you talking about?

Only comparable to Copp on the Jets for draft and develop is Lowry... first rounders make the NHL or they are busts.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Maybe work wheeler into the trade and get all that cap space back. Then they can ride off into the sunset together!

 

[Adam da bomb]

Agree with your last paragraph.

I'm not convinced Perfetti ever makes it at C in the NHL but if he does, I don't think it takes him all that long. One more year? Maybe less. He doesn't need to become a ppg 1C.

There are options, though 1 less with Copp gone. Play Wheeler at 2C for 1 year if nothing else works out. You already said we aren't contending next year anyway.

If you insist on a replacement top 6 C in the return we either lose the trade quite badly or we don't move Scheifele. If we can get a prospective C, great. If not, just make sure and get value. I would be happy with a return built on a top 2 RHD.

Why don't you see Perfetti as a centre? Size?

 

[Adam da bomb]

Only comparable to Copp on the Jets for draft and develop is Lowry... first rounders make the NHL or they are busts.

Samberg and Gus look like they could be draft and develop success stories.

 

[Duke749]

Only comparable to Copp on the Jets for draft and develop is Lowry... first rounders make the NHL or they are busts.

First off… Hellebyuck.

Second off… that’s not a great way to judge young talent at all.

Third… most of our high end firsts have exceeded expectations honestly.

 

[Ggg99]

I agree about the intro music. Wiebe‘s got more of a Depeche Mode kinda vibe to him

I was thinking Anne Murray.