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Player Discussion: Mark S Discussion

Imcanadianeh said:
Weird that he played all last season with Connor and people said he wasn’t engaged, but for some reason thing year the only time he is engaged is when he accidentally gets to play with Connor.
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He was defensively awful last year and stick waving for sure... but honestly this year he's taken it to a whole new level.

Again, plus minus is not a great stat - unless there's a drastic change... Scheif has gone from a +19 player to -17 player in five years - with essentially the same usage, etc. Fancy stats are still good though.
 
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The problem with Schiefele is he's been the current version of himself for 4 seasons now and he's not getting better.

I think we're at the apex of his value this offseason. You'd think that those who bemoan us not selling guys like stasny and Dillon at the tdl would be fully onboard with maximizing a return on a very valuable asset.

At least Stas and Dillon are providing the intended value that was expected.

Scheif gets his points but I'd like to see an objective analysis of how many wins he is in the forefront of vs how many losses he has had a primary hand in.

Might be bias but I feel like he contributes to losses more than wins.
 
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WolfHouse said:
He was defensively awful last year and stick waving for sure... but honestly this year he's taken it to a whole new level.

Again, plus minus is not a great stat - unless there's a drastic change... Scheif has gone from a +19 player to -17 player in five years - with essentially the same usage, etc. Fancy stats are still good though.
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I don’t understand at all where you’re going with this, I never once said I think Scheifele is having a good season or hasn’t been trending down…..it’s like you’re just arguing with yourself.
 
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Imcanadianeh said:
I don’t understand at all where you’re going with this, I never once said I think Scheifele is having a good season or hasn’t been trending down…..it’s like you’re just arguing with yourself.
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Hmm that's weird - you said I was making things up when I said Scheif was especially checked out this year... maybe I missed the point you were making
 
HHel said:
It just fact, that this team doesn't win nothing major with those two guys. You have seen the signs in last three years.
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Again, that wasn't the claim. The claim was that Scheifele is sulking because he's not the top guy or is jealous of his teammates.
 
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If and that's a big if Chevy is trying to trade Scheifele and is trying to get a good return for him .... you guys are working for the other 31 GMs by saying 55 is not worth it.
 
Jet said:
The problem with Schiefele is he's been the current version of himself for 4 seasons now and he's not getting better.

I think we're at the apex of his value this offseason. You'd think that those who bemoan us not selling guys like stasny and Dillon at the tdl would be fully onboard with maximizing a return on a very valuable asset.

At least Stas and Dillon are providing the intended value that was expected.

Scheif gets his points but I'd like to see an objective analysis of how many wins he is in the forefront of vs how many losses he has had a primary hand in.

Might be bias but I feel like he contributes to losses more than wins.
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Re: Chef's points...

Mark has played 60 games.
Of those 60 games he has points in 36 of them.
Of those 36 games where he has produced points, the Jets have won 22 games. ( 22W - 14 L/OL )
Of those 36 games where he has produced points, he is a minus player in 12 of those games and he is a +7 overall in those 36 games.
Of the 24 games where he produced no points, he is a minus player in 16 of those games and he is a -26 overall in those 24 games.

JMO, but Chef is a bit of a defensive liability in general, but in games where he is not producing points, he's a huge liability.

This is why the Jets need him engaged in every game. If he's playing hard and putting in the effort, we can see the positive effects. If he's not engaged, it's not looking very good.
 
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Wonder if Scheifele heads to New York and is reunited with pals Trouba and Copp. I’m sure that would ignite him.

Lafreniere would be a good starting point on the return
 
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I see some of the same criticisms being levied at 55 as Flames fans were throwing at Gaudreau- soft, doesn't play defense etc. Now look at Gaudreau this season under a different coach.

You need to be absolutely certain that there isn't anything you can do to help him play a better 2 way game before you move on from him or that's a trade you regret for years. It is easy to call for trading him now when you are not missing his points, would feel much more painful if he is no longer here and no one to replace those points with. I have watched enough hockey in the early Jets 2.0 era from 2011-2016 to know how much it sucks watching a team that doesn't have offensive creativity or a PPG center.
 
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tbcwpg said:
Again, that wasn't the claim. The claim was that Scheifele is sulking because he's not the top guy or is jealous of his teammates.
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I think that makes diverce in the room. At the moment there are wrong kind of leaders in the room and that has shown in past years. There has to be some kind of change, wether that be selling Snuffles and Wheezer. Calgary, Minnesota and last Columbus has done great job after getting rid of old leadership group.
 
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JetsFan815 said:
I see some of the same criticisms being levied at 55 as Flames fans were throwing at Gaudreau- soft, doesn't play defense etc. Now look at Gaudreau this season under a different coach.

You need to be absolutely certain that there isn't anything you can do to help him play a better 2 way game before you move on from him or that's a trade you regret for years. It is easy to call for trading him now when you are not missing his points, would feel much more painful if he is no longer here and no one to replace those points with. I have watched enough hockey in the early Jets 2.0 era from 2011-2016 to know how much it sucks watching a team that doesn't have offensive creativity or a PPG center.
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Yup, I imagine that should be one of the interview questions facing the potential coaching candidates. What are your thoughts on Scheifele and how do you plan on fixing his game.
 
cbcwpg said:
Re: Chef's points...

Mark has played 60 games.
Of those 60 games he has points in 36 of them.
Of those 36 games where he has produced points, the Jets have won 22 games. ( 22W - 14 L/OL )
Of those 36 games where he has produced points, he is a minus player in 12 of those games and he is a +7 overall in those 36 games.
Of the 24 games where he produced no points, he is a minus player in 16 of those games and he is a -26 overall in those 24 games.

JMO, but Chef is a bit of a defensive liability in general, but in games where he is not producing points, he's a huge liability.

This is why the Jets need him engaged in every game. If he's playing hard and putting in the effort, we can see the positive effects. If he's not engaged, it's not looking very good.
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Are these numbers significantly different that you would find with any top-line player when comparing the games in which he had points vs. those in which he didn’t? It seems to be saying that if you cherry-pick all the games where he didn’t get a point, on average the top line he played against scored one more ES goal while he was on the ice than the Jets did, which doesn’t seem especially surprising, at least intuitively.
 
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Bob E said:
Wonder if Scheifele heads to New York and is reunited with pals Trouba and Copp. I’m sure that would ignite him.

Lafreniere would be a good starting point on the return
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I've been looking over the Rangers' cap situation and I think they are a bit tight add 55 and sign Copp. Leading me to believe Chytil would be a piece coming back and they might prefer RFA Kakko leaving over Laf who has another year of ELC.

It is an interesting concept though.
 
Say what you want about Dave Lowry but I will say this: he has made tough decisions on Mark Scheifele that Paul Maurice simply wouldn't (other than that one time in that Saturday night game against the Leafs).

In subtle ways he has sent a message to Scheifele that is no longer the top dog. We have seen this in his deployment in overtime, reduced ice time, empty net situations etc.

That in and of itself will be Lowry's value to this organization when we look back on him years from now - that he re-established the pecking order amongst the players.

He isn't head coaching material, we all know it, and I would think TNSE knows it.

But what he has done, is set a nice groundwork for the next coach to walk into next year.

Who knows, by that time maybe Scheifele will be on another team after he tells management in his exit meeting to "frick off".
 
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Guido Borsato said:
Say what you want about Dave Lowry but I will say this: he has made tough decisions on Mark Scheifele that Paul Maurice simply wouldn't (other than that one time in that Saturday night game against the Leafs).

In subtle ways he has sent a message to Scheifele that is no longer the top dog. We have seen this in his deployment in overtime, reduced ice time, empty net situations etc.

That in and of itself will be Lowry's value to this organization when we look back on him years from now - that he re-established the pecking order amongst the players.

He isn't head coaching material, we all know it, and I would think TNSE knows it.

But what he has done, is set a nice groundwork for the next coach to walk into next year.

Who knows, by that time maybe Scheifele will be on another team after he tells management in his exit meeting to "frick off".
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There has been no discernable change in his usage between Maurice and Lowry. He is averaging a whopping 7 seconds less per game under Lowry and a full two minutes more per game then PLD. No message is being sent here, he is getting all the minutes he wants.
 
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What kind of return will folks be happy with when (if) chevy trades 55 this summer?

Will you be good with a high draft pick and a roster player?

Do you get another team's underperforming offensive player?
 
ducky said:
What kind of return will folks be happy with when (if) chevy trades 55 this summer?

Will you be good with a high draft pick and a roster player?

Do you get another team's underperforming offensive player?
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It has to be roster players or ready to play prospects. Draft picks are 2-3 years away to make an impact and that really isn’t in our time line with the young core.
 
ducky said:
What kind of return will folks be happy with when (if) chevy trades 55 this summer?

Will you be good with a high draft pick and a roster player?

Do you get another team's underperforming offensive player?
Click to expand...
Has to be at least a 50-60 point forward with some term and a ready to play D prospect imo. Have to get some protection in the lineup for Perfetti and Dubois, to take some of the load. Nobody in the system is going to replace those points in the next year. A legit 1 or 2 D would be great but I’m not sure it makes up for losing Scheifele’s offense and doubt it would pay dividends next year. A potential 2 D prospect with a top 6 forward is minimum.
 
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ducky said:
What kind of return will folks be happy with when (if) chevy trades 55 this summer?

Will you be good with a high draft pick and a roster player?

Do you get another team's underperforming offensive player?
Click to expand...

Youngish cost controlled players. Would like a top tier D prospect and a top tier Center prospect. Both that are ready to go. 20/21/22 years of age.
 
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