Mario Lemieux's under-appreciated 2002-2003 season

[The Panther]

he worst part? ... He was so brilliant that you had to marvel at his greatness and couldn't even hate him.

One of the nice things about Howe, Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux (as opposed to elites in several other pro sports) is that all of them were publicly humble, kind men. Very rarely did any of them step out of line with the media or in the public eye. We can probably count on one hand the number of times Wayne and Mario did so -- and then only barely, by the strictest standards -- in a combined 35 or whatever years in the NHL. (Same with Howe and Orr, but that was a simpler, less media intense time.)

It's nice when it's hard to hate on the sport's most elite talents.

 

[Boxscore]

One of the nice things about Howe, Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux (as opposed to elites in several other pro sports) is that all of them were publicly humble, kind men. Very rarely did any of them step out of line with the media or in the public eye. We can probably count on one hand the number of times Wayne and Mario did so -- and then only barely, by the strictest standards -- in a combined 35 or whatever years in the NHL. (Same with Howe and Orr, but that was a simpler, less media intense time.)

It's nice when it's hard to hate on the sport's most elite talents.

Absolutely right. If you didn't love Gretzky, you don't have a soul. Two summers ago I was talking to Mark Howe during lunch while filming a video--he told me when they had a memorial luncheon for Gordie--Gretz stayed until the end, helped them clean up and put the chairs on top of the tables. He refused to leave until he helped the Howe family clean up. If that doesn't tell you what Gretz is all about, I don't know what will. Class act.

Mario was similar. I remember being a young, snot-nosed teenager in 1991 or so, running down the outside Spectrum tunnel to try and get Lemieux's autograph. He got out of a town car with Paul Coffey and walked down towards the players entrance. Arena personnel opened the door from the inside as I was yelling from like 70 feet away, "Mario wait up!! Can you sign my magazine?!" Coffey went in, Mario stood by the door and waited for me to run down so he could sign for me. A year or so later, I was at his first game back from Cancer and repaid the favor by losing my voice cheering for him lol.

 

[The Panther]

Absolutely right. If you didn't love Gretzky, you don't have a soul. Two summers ago I was talking to Mark Howe during lunch while filming a video--he told me when they had a memorial luncheon for Gordie--Gretz stayed until the end, helped them clean up and put the chairs on top of the tables. He refused to leave until he helped the Howe family clean up. If that doesn't tell you what Gretz is all about, I don't know what will. Class act.

Mario was similar. I remember being a young, snot-nosed teenager in 1991 or so, running down the outside Spectrum tunnel to try and get Lemieux's autograph. He got out of a town car with Paul Coffey and walked down towards the players entrance. Arena personnel opened the door from the inside as I was yelling from like 70 feet away, "Mario wait up!! Can you sign my magazine?!" Coffey went in, Mario stood by the door and waited for me to run down so he could sign for me. A year or so later, I was at his first game back from Cancer and repaid the favor by losing my voice cheering for him lol.

Those are great stories. Mark Howe also told the story of how Gretzky came into the Flyers' locker-room after game seven in 1987 and gave a short speech to tell the Flyers they were great and that the Oilers had never been pushed so far.

One thing I like about the French-Canadian players in general (and this includes Mario) is that they are never afraid to speak their minds and think outside the box a bit. I think the English-Canadian (and some American) players get too caught up in the PR-machine of being a pro-athlete and a company man. (Outside of his coaching / managing stints, Gretzky has had nothing interesting to say since about 1991.) I like that the French players are honest and say what they really think, but also maintain high standards of class and professionalism in public. Lemieux is a good example... or Martin St.Louis... lots of others.

 

[Boxscore]

Those are great stories. Mark Howe also told the story of how Gretzky came into the Flyers' locker-room after game seven in 1987 and gave a short speech to tell the Flyers they were great and that the Oilers had never been pushed so far.

This is correct--Mark Howe told me this directly the same day--and I think I shared it on the forums that night. The story's Howe, Propp and Crossman had about Keenan, the Cup, Canada Cup were incredible.

One thing I like about the French-Canadian players in general (and this includes Mario) is that they are never afraid to speak their minds and think outside the box a bit. I think the English-Canadian (and some American) players get too caught up in the PR-machine of being a pro-athlete and a company man. (Outside of his coaching / managing stints, Gretzky has had nothing interesting to say since about 1991.) I like that the French players are honest and say what they really think, but also maintain high standards of class and professionalism in public. Lemieux is a good example... or Martin St.Louis... lots of others.

I agree. Demers and Geoffrion immediately come to mind. And how about Bossy? Telling the Islanders he was going to get them 50 goals when he signed his first pro contract. Marcel Dionne also stands out to me, along with your examples.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Yes and yes. Gretz and Mario are demigods--in their own class, period. LEM was definitely the scariest player I ever watched--everything about him was intimidating as an opposing fan--his size, the black uniform, his reach, skill, sizzle, and ability to simply toy with teams. I spent many nights at the Spectrum in Philly watching Mario surgically take apart the Flyers. The worst part? ... He was so brilliant that you had to marvel at his greatness and couldn't even hate him.

the play at 7:45 is the definition of dominance.

 

[Troubadour]

the play at 7:45 is the definition of dominance.

In a way, it is. That's about the time Dominator started doing the Dominator's business.

 

[Stanislasjc]

I seem to recall Mario also played at times like he was lazy as F and just kinda floated and stood pat. But he was seemingly never in the wrong place or scrambly. His IQ was so high, he basically knew the best place to be. It kinda makes sense though with the pain he endured through most of his career and the low energy he probably had from the cancer treatments.

Jagr late in his career made similar comments about himself. Something along the lines of, "I might not be fast, but I know exactly where to be. Everyone else can quickly go to the wrong place.". I honestly believe he learned a similar skill in predicting the play from Mario.

This is way too late now, and not that important, but just for the record, I loved that comment you referenced so much I tracked down the exact quote: "'no question, my foot speed (is slower), but some guys get to the wrong places really fast. I get to the right places."

Breaking down the deal for Jaromir Jagr

EDMONTON — Calgary Flames fans have Curtis Lazar and, to a lesser extent, Spencer Foo, to thank for the signing of Jaromir Jagr.

calgaryherald.com

Such a great way to explain 2000s era Lemieux's game, as well as Jagr's.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Anyway, I guess Wayne just got lucky to lead six major international tournaments in a row in scoring. I mean, Mike Gartner could have done it...

Mike Gartner played on a checking line with Messier/Anderson in 1987.

 

[Gorskyontario]

And how about Bossy? Telling the Islanders he was going to get them 50 goals when he signed his first pro contract. Marcel Dionne also stands out to me, along with your examples.

Bossy wasn't french. He was anglo from Quebec. Maybe he was half French but definitely not his first language.

 

[dr robbie]

I love it when threads like this are revived and I can re-read some of the comments / re-watch some of the videos. I almost feel like a crazy person now-a-days with younger people completing glossing over the dominance that Gretzky and Lemieux had over hockey.

I literally got into a discussion earlier this week with a kid that was speaking nonsense such as Howe not being a top 10 player ever and he made the statement that Jagr was just as good as Lemieux, but was more durable, so was overall a better hockey player... It's like, I can't even wrap my head around the thought process and anyone that watched them play would never ever dream of making such a comparison. They were just on another level and it was obvious.

 

[Stanislasjc]

I love it when threads like this are revived and I can re-read some of the comments / re-watch some of the videos. I almost feel like a crazy person now-a-days with younger people completing glossing over the dominance that Gretzky and Lemieux had over hockey.

I literally got into a discussion earlier this week with a kid that was speaking nonsense such as Howe not being a top 10 player ever and he made the statement that Jagr was just as good as Lemieux, but was more durable, so was overall a better hockey player... It's like, I can't even wrap my head around the thought process and anyone that watched them play would never ever dream of making such a comparison. They were just on another level and it was obvious.

Yes I always read and revisit old threads and learn a lot!

I especially agree that Gordie Howe's legacy is being discounted lately as we try to secure the legacy of the Sid and Ovie generation. A coworker was telling me Crosby should easily knock Gordie Howe off "Mount Rushmore", especially when you consider Crosby's longevity lol

I mentioned that while Sid is doing amazing, longevity might not be the angle you want to use to beat Howe. Not only did Gordie score 100 pts at 40 (A milestone Sid hasn't achieved since he was 31) but Gordie even managed 40 pts in his 50's, and my coworker was like: yeah in that fake league for the Whalers!

I kindly pointed out that no, both of those seasons were in the NHL. Then he said those seasons were ancient history and don't count. And I said the 100 point season happened while Orr was playing and the 40 point season happened when Gretzky was playing, should we knock those guys off Mount Rushmore too? He averaged a PPG against the Soviets at the age of 46.

He was a big Leafs fan, so I told him: Gordie not only played against Syl Apps Sr. in the 1940's, but his career also outlasted Syl Apps jr. who played his final game in February of 1980. Howe lasted until April,1980. lol You've heard of generational talents, but have you heard of multi-generational talents?

He grumbled a lot but let it go at that lol I'm not saying Crosby isn't amazing, but Howe should not be forgotten so easily either. I'm sure in 50 years (if I am still alive) I will be hearing how Crosby could never play in the era of laser pucks, and hover skates lol)

 

[Gerulaitis]

Bossy wasn't french. He was anglo from Quebec. Maybe he was half French but definitely not his first language.

Bossy was actually a Ukrainian

 

[BraveCanadian]

Yes I always read and revisit old threads and learn a lot!

I especially agree that Gordie Howe's legacy is being discounted lately as we try to secure the legacy of the Sid and Ovie generation.

My son tries the old "they were all amateurs who were plumbers and smoked three packs a day" thing on me all the time but as you pointed out, careers like Gordie's and Ray Bourque and Jagr and others bridge the gaps successfully and make those arguments sink pretty quickly.

Then I bring up all the guys today who are supposedly cyborgs about fitness and nutrition and whatever.. but getting DUIs and going into the assistance program for dependencies to show him that things really haven't changed much on that front (sadly) either.

 

[MadLuke]

I feel Brady combine ability or now Mahome, baseball hitter in general, Tyson fury body shape have put some cold water on the cyborg modern athlete versus the past narrative. When we look at Patrick Kane, Kucherov or Ovechkin, easy to imagine them in the 70s playing hockey in a similar shape and they dominated modern people eating only what they think are the best, doing cold plunge and training every day in the summer.

Even in basketball where you have relatively objective metric to judge with shooting percentage, with what the Lebron James, Durant and Curry did at the Olympics, people trying to do some player today > early 00s do not have an easy time at that.

Even if everyone agree they are trained in a list of skillset that make possible for teams to destroy team of the past and that the slow big cannot shoot post forward became rare and so on and euros upped the talent pool, it is quite clear that the best of the past would have been good today.

It is a bit strange that it finally reached Mario, I thought Howe, Orr maybe even Gretzky will have that type of talk by the youngling, but Mario would be robust for a long time, with what he did in 2001-2003 type of hockey, it was almost HD tv days. And the clear Jagr 2006 performance and Ov-Crosby from those days still going strong, it would need at least a break from Jagr (like the post 06 to late 80s can feel to some) for the narrative to start.

But no, not needed.

 

[authentic]

This is way too late now, and not that important, but just for the record, I loved that comment you referenced so much I tracked down the exact quote: "'no question, my foot speed (is slower), but some guys get to the wrong places really fast. I get to the right places."

Breaking down the deal for Jaromir Jagr

EDMONTON — Calgary Flames fans have Curtis Lazar and, to a lesser extent, Spencer Foo, to thank for the signing of Jaromir Jagr.

calgaryherald.com

Such a great way to explain 2000s era Lemieux's game, as well as Jagr's.

This was like Gretzky in his prime except he also had great health and top notch stamina and decent to above average speed. He was always in the right places and was able to go harder towards the end of a game while others had exhausted themselves more. I’m trying to imagine a line of Lemieux-Gretzky-Jagr, best offensive line imaginable?

 

[authentic]

I love it when threads like this are revived and I can re-read some of the comments / re-watch some of the videos. I almost feel like a crazy person now-a-days with younger people completing glossing over the dominance that Gretzky and Lemieux had over hockey.

I literally got into a discussion earlier this week with a kid that was speaking nonsense such as Howe not being a top 10 player ever and he made the statement that Jagr was just as good as Lemieux, but was more durable, so was overall a better hockey player... It's like, I can't even wrap my head around the thought process and anyone that watched them play would never ever dream of making such a comparison. They were just on another level and it was obvious.

I honestly feel like a player like Kucherov today is most comparable to them and would’ve had a field day in the 80s/early 90s, just by the way he anticipates and thinks the game and how easy he makes things look. It’s hard to fathom how it takes an alien like talent in McDavid today with all that speed and skill combined with the high IQ to even scratch the surface of the dominance they displayed, and even then he doesn’t really scratch it at all outside of a season and a half and a few playoff runs.

 

[WalterLundy]

I honestly feel like a player like Kucherov today is most comparable to them and would’ve had a field day in the 80s/early 90s, just by the way he anticipates and thinks the game and how easy he makes things look. It’s hard to fathom how it takes an alien like talent in McDavid today with all that speed and skill combined with the high IQ to even scratch the surface of the dominance they displayed, and even then he doesn’t really scratch it at all outside of a season and a half and a few playoff runs.

I agree and I was intrigued at what each of the best seasons for the top players of this era would look like in 1988-89. That was 100% Lemieux’s magnum opus. I translated all stats to 1988-89’s averages of 2.53 even strength goals, 1.06 power play goals and 0.15 shorthanded goals. If they played over 80 games I stop them at 80 to match the schedule length.

1989 Lemieux
76 GP: 85 G, 114 A, 199 P (2.62)

2023 McDavid
80 GP: 82 G, 121 A, 203 P (2.54)

2024 Kucherov:
80 GP: 54 G, 130 A, 184 P (2.30)

2011, 2012 and 2013 peak Crosby
80 GP: 66 G, 115 A, 181 P (2.26)
(11: 41 GP: 45 G, 46 A, 91 P)
(12: 22 GP: 11 G, 42 A, 53 P)
(13: 17 GP: 10 G, 27 A, 37 P)

2024 MacKinnon:
80 GP: 61 G, 115 A, 176 P (2.20)

2023 Draisaitl:
80 GP: 73 G, 99 A, 172 P (2.15)

2012 Malkin:
75 GP: 70 G, 88 A, 158 P (2.11)

2010 Ovechkin:
72 GP: 67 G, 81 A, 148 P (2.06)

2008 Ovechkin:
80 GP: 86 G, 65 A, 151 P (1.89)

2016 Kane:
80 GP: 65 G, 84 A, 149 P (1.86)

2022 Matthews:
73 GP: 74 G, 56 A, 130 P (1.78)

2024 Matthews:
80 GP: 85 G, 49 A, 134 P (1.68)

2012 Stamkos:
80 GP: 80 G, 54 A, 134 P (1.68)

This to me is really cool to look at. Really makes you appreciate the talent we have in the game today.

 

[WalterLundy]

As for the thread topic itself I think 2003 Lemieux was even more impressive than 2001. No Jagr and similar totals throughout the same sample size. Jagr was the better player on that 01 team when both were active. What Lemieux did in 2003 for the first half was nothing short of remarkable.