Mario Lemieux's under-appreciated 2002-2003 season

[TeeTee]

Mario was the complete package. If you would put together the components of a perfect hockey player, you would come up with Mario.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Hasek struggled against Pittsburgh in general. (Lemieux and Jagr having a lot to do with it). I remember hearing during the 2001 Buffalo series that his career stats against the pens were the worst of all teams.

Hasek did stone Lemieux twice in the 92 finals on breakaways

 

[HF007]

You aren't wrong. 7:40 in the video.

Insane reach, and with his skill its no chance

 

[crosbyshow]

Insane reach, and with his skill its no chance

Wow!!!. Lemieux was unbelievable.


Look the Pens roster in 88-89 when he did 199 points in 76 games.

The Pens first power play unit was:

Lemieux
Coffey
Rob f.. Brown
Bob who Errey
Russ!!!! Taglianetti!!!

199 points with those guys.

In 87-88 the roster was even worse..and he did 168 points.

This is the prime healthy Lemieux at 22-23 years old.

After that 160 points in 60 games with cancer in 92-93...

A Real phenom

 

[Spartachat]

Mario was the complete package. If you would put together the components of a perfect hockey player, you would come up with Mario.

Just imagine him if he was healthy, didn’t smoke and trained under Gary Roberts.

 

[Riddum]

It's actually massively overrated.

Lemieux was the second best player on his own line for a whopping half season, after three full years of rest. Then he fell apart in the playoffs, scoring zero goals and 3 points in his last six games despite playing ridiculously high minutes. People extrapolate that half season as proof that Lemieux could still dominate, but in reality he did the best he could and he was unable to handle playing hockey anymore.

Lemieux never led the NHL in anything after age 31.

"Three full years of rest" lollllllll

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Wow!!!. Lemieux was unbelievable.


Look the Pens roster in 88-89 when he did 199 points in 76 games.

The Pens first power play unit was:

Lemieux
Coffey
Rob f.. Brown
Bob who Errey
Russ!!!! Taglianetti!!!

199 points with those guys.

In 87-88 the roster was even worse..and he did 168 points.

This is the prime healthy Lemieux at 22-23 years old.

After that 160 points in 60 games with cancer in 92-93...

A Real phenom

Certainly worse team than Gretzky played in his prime years.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Just imagine him if he was healthy, didn’t smoke and trained under Gary Roberts.

He quit smoking before the 87-88 season

 

[Tweed]

Just leaving these here for anybody who actually wants to know the extent of the "wear and tear" that Lemieux overcame:

-Spinal Stenosis
-Fractured Vertebrae
-Knee Sprain (Left)
-Bronchitis
-Knee Sprain (Right)
-Torn Adductor Muscles
-Herniated Discs (required Surgery)
-Vertebral Osteomylitis
-Staphylococcus Infection
-Torn Adductor Muscles
-Broken Wrist
-Hodgkins Lymphoma (required Surgery)
-Radiation Therapy
-Herniated Back Muscle (required Surgery)
-Radiation Fatigue
-Torn Hip Flexors
-Torn Adductor Muscles
-Hip Joint & Cartilage (required Surgery)
-Atrial Fibrillation

 

[the]

If prime Mario played today he would easily get at least 500 points.

Those jabronis currently in the NHL got nothing on him.

 

[The Panther]

Wow!!!. Lemieux was unbelievable.


Look the Pens roster in 88-89 when he did 199 points in 76 games.

The Pens first power play unit was:

Lemieux
Coffey
Rob f.. Brown
Bob who Errey
Russ!!!! Taglianetti!!!

Bob Errey actually didn't score a PP point that entire season. And Taglianetti was with with Winnipeg in 1988-89. Then, don't forget Mario's buddy Dan Quinn, who put up 94 points in 1988-89, 50% of them on the power-play. (Quinn was a talented offensive player, but rather one dimensional. In three seasons '88 to '91, he went -87. Same could be said of Rob Brown.)

Pens in 1988-89 were strong offensively. They scored 347 goals, third in the NHL and by far the most in the East. Problem with the club was defense.

 

[crosbyshow]

Bob Errey actually didn't score a PP point that entire season. And Taglianetti was with with Winnipeg in 1988-89. Then, don't forget Mario's buddy Dan Quinn, who put up 94 points in 1988-89, 50% of them on the power-play. (Quinn was a talented offensive player, but rather one dimensional. In three seasons '88 to '91, he went -87. Same could be said of Rob Brown.)

Pens in 1988-89 were strong offensively. They scored 347 goals, third in the NHL and by far the most in the East. Problem with the club was defense.

Come on man.. they had a good offence because of Mario.

The Guy scored 199 points in 76 games and 85 goals and the Top 5 in points on the team were:

Lemieux
Coffey
Brown
Quinn
Errey.

199 with that roster......4 or 5 years before you would that said To people that somebody would score 199 points with those guys..and everybody would have said..this is not possible you describing the best player ever.

Look at the 87-88 Pens roster..it is even worse...and he did 168 points

 

[Danny46]

Lemieux was the perfect offensive player, to me him and Orr were better than Gretzky, the difference was that Gretzky was healthier than both...

 

[crosbyshow]

In 87-88 he did 168 points in 77 games and the Pens Top 5 in points were:

Lemieux
Dan Quinn
Randy Cunneyworth
Coffey ( he played only 46 games...)
Doug Bodger.

I mean....168 points...a miracle

Cunneyworth the third best player on the team never scored 50 points except of that season..

Mario before 1990 was ALONE....but he was healthy and at his prime...and his numbers are unbelievable

 

[The Panther]

Come on man.. they had a good offence because of Mario.

Don't think I was disputing that.

 

[Passchendaele]

Lemieux was the perfect offensive player, to me him and Orr were better than Gretzky, the difference was that Gretzky was healthier than both...

Staying healthy is a non-neglectable skill.

You're not helping your team if you're not on the ice.

IMO, Gretzky's durability is what make him stand above the other two.

 

[The Panther]

Orr and Gretzky (in his prime) are the two most individually-dominant hockey players ever.

In terms of individual skill, you can make an argument that Mario Lemieux is the most talented player ever, and I would probably agree (esp. when you factor in his size). Lemieux, at his peak, is probably the best player ever in terms of doing it by himself.

But hockey isn't a skills-competition about doing it by yourself. It's about making your team better. And that's why Orr and Gretzky are the two best players. Gretzky is the best player ever at making his teammates better, and Orr is the individual player who tilted the ice most in his team's favor.

If you tend to favor consistency and longevity, Gretzky also beats Orr and Lemieux, but he possibly falls behind Gordie Howe.

As far as Gretzky compared to Lemieux goes, Gretzky scored more, won more, set all the records, and did everything first and faster. He was also massively more dominant at even-strength. And he destroyed Lemieux head to head (including in the 90s).

The one point Lemieux has over Gretzky is that Gretzky declined suddenly and quickly after September 1991, aged 30. Lemieux was also 30 during his last superhuman season -- 1995-96 -- but he continued scoring goals at a huge rate in 1997 (and won the scoring title, albeit with more mortal numbers) and during his amazing shortened comeback in 2000-01. I think, in the 1990s, size became a bigger advantage for Mario, while Gretzky had a lot of mileage on him by age 30 compared to nearly any player.

Nobody will ever compare to what Gretzky achieved between 1979-80 and Sept. 1991, though. That's 12 straight years of hardly missing games, while doing consistently more than anyone ever had, while setting every record (on two teams), winning a lot, and dominating best-on-best international tournaments.

 

[Mogo]

He was a force of nature. Lemieux, Forsberg, Jagr, Lindros... we just don't have guys like that anymore. Lemieux smoked, drank and f***ed, but was still stronger than almost any other player. I still can't believe a 6'4", 230 lbs guy could skate like that.

Crazy to just think back to 90's how many real STARS the league had compared to now. I mean guys who had that star power that were still talking about them 20-30 years later how no player today compare to them in star power. Sure McDavid is great but those MOFO were badass too

 

[bobholly39]

Lemieux was the perfect offensive player, to me him and Orr were better than Gretzky, the difference was that Gretzky was healthier than both...

I'd change the bolded to be "difference was that Gretzky performed better than both". Because he simply did, it wasn't just about health, it's also about actually performing to the maximum of your potential, consistently every year. Health alone doesn't ensure that.

Every single regular season, he was the best scorer by a huge margin, without fail
Every single international competition, he was the best scorer by a big margin
Every single playoff - he was the best scorer, by a big margin

Consistency is through the roof.

At the end of the day, you get judged on what you did do - not what you could do. I'm a firm believer that Lemieux had it in him to top 215/92 if he had been perfectly healthy his peak years - but that's all it is, a belief. I don't believe Lemieux would have hit those numbers consistently every year, like Gretzky did. That's where Gretzky separates himself. Same for his playoff runs.

Even Orr - look at his playoffs. He has some all-time great runs, and some less ones. Gretzky was dynamite in every playoff run.

To clarify - i'm talking about peak versions here, so this is Gretzky in Edmonton.

 

[Sentinel]

He was a force of nature. Lemieux, Forsberg, Jagr, Lindros... we just don't have guys like that anymore. Lemieux smoked, drank and f***ed, but was still stronger than almost any other player. I still can't believe a 6'4", 230 lbs guy could skate like that.

Ovechkin fits all those criteria very nicely. Except smoking... but he makes up in the other two areas.

 

[Sentinel]

Insane reach, and with his skill its no chance

All those stars were awesome. Gave me chills!

It's also my favorite ASG format. The only one that actually made people care.

 

[Tweed]

Staying healthy is a non-neglectable skill.

You're not helping your team if you're not on the ice.

IMO, Gretzky's durability is what make him stand above the other two.

Check it out...
Gretzky's "durability"... caught on film!

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'd change the bolded to be "difference was that Gretzky performed better than both". Because he simply did, it wasn't just about health, it's also about actually performing to the maximum of your potential, consistently every year. Health alone doesn't ensure that.

Every single regular season, he was the best scorer by a huge margin, without fail
Every single international competition, he was the best scorer by a big margin
Every single playoff - he was the best scorer, by a big margin

Consistency is through the roof.

At the end of the day, you get judged on what you did do - not what you could do. I'm a firm believer that Lemieux had it in him to top 215/92 if he had been perfectly healthy his peak years - but that's all it is, a belief. I don't believe Lemieux would have hit those numbers consistently every year, like Gretzky did. That's where Gretzky separates himself. Same for his playoff runs.

Even Orr - look at his playoffs. He has some all-time great runs, and some less ones. Gretzky was dynamite in every playoff run.

To clarify - i'm talking about peak versions here, so this is Gretzky in Edmonton.

Don't you think its somewhat unfair to compare Gretzky to Orr (a defenseman) and then use "best scorer" as the only criteria?

 

[plusandminus]

Pittsburgh's PP was extremely good that season. After 23 GP they were officially at 32.8 %, with 2nd best team 23.0 %. Net PP% was 30.3 % with 2nd best team at 20.6. Almost twice as high as the average team.
NHL.com Stats

Mario himself had 29 PP pts, with 2nd best in league at 19 PP pts (teammates Kovalev & Tärnström, and Hossa).

Their even strength play wasn't very good and overall they were just tied for 8-11th in the standings.
Mario was officially -1.

Then they kept losing 10 straight (game 23-33, so 11 overall).

Player after player left.
During their last 21 games of the season, they were 2-17-2 (won-lost-tied).
2002-03 Pittsburgh Penguins Team Gamelog | Hockey-Reference.com

Mario scored only 8 pts in his last 15 gp, and was officially -21 in those 15 gp.
Mario Lemieux 2002-03 Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[plusandminus]

Pittsburgh's PP was extremely good that season. After 23 GP they were officially at 32.8 %, with 2nd best team 23.0 %. Net PP% was 30.3 % with 2nd best team at 20.6. Almost twice as high as the average team.
NHL.com Stats

Mario himself had 29 PP pts, with 2nd best in league at 19 PP pts (teammates Kovalev & Tärnström, and Hossa).

During Pittsburgh's other 59 gp, they were tied for worst in the league in PP! Officially 11.2 %. Net PP 8.1 %.
NHL.com Stats
Mario himself only had 8 PP pts during those 59 gp.

So... Mario had 29 PPpts in 23 gp. Then 8 PPpts in 59 gp.
I actually felt sorry for him to see such a great start of the season and then end up being in a horrible team, all while having problems with his own body.