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Mario Lemieux's under-appreciated 2002-2003 season | Page 5 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League
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Mario Lemieux's under-appreciated 2002-2003 season

Don't you think its somewhat unfair to compare Gretzky to Orr (a defenseman) and then use "best scorer" as the only criteria?

I was highlighting "best scorer" to show how good Gretzky was in regards to performing year to year, playoff to playoff and in tournaments. I wasn't implying that's the same criteria by which we should measure Orr.

Where I prefer Gretzky to Orr in terms of performances is that I feel like Gretzky had great performances every single playoff run in Edmonton (top scorer, by far, each time). Orr has some great playoffs - but also at least 1 or 2 so-so ones. 1973 for example. I admit that's before my time so I'm mostly going off of stats with that assessment, maybe you disagree?
 
I'd change the bolded to be "difference was that Gretzky performed better than both". Because he simply did, it wasn't just about health, it's also about actually performing to the maximum of your potential, consistently every year. Health alone doesn't ensure that.

Every single regular season, he was the best scorer by a huge margin, without fail
Every single international competition, he was the best scorer by a big margin
Every single playoff - he was the best scorer, by a big margin

Consistency is through the roof.

At the end of the day, you get judged on what you did do - not what you could do. I'm a firm believer that Lemieux had it in him to top 215/92 if he had been perfectly healthy his peak years - but that's all it is, a belief. I don't believe Lemieux would have hit those numbers consistently every year, like Gretzky did. That's where Gretzky separates himself. Same for his playoff runs.

Even Orr - look at his playoffs. He has some all-time great runs, and some less ones. Gretzky was dynamite in every playoff run.

To clarify - i'm talking about peak versions here, so this is Gretzky in Edmonton.
Not only was Gretzky not always the best scorer in international competitions by a big margin, but - in best-on-best tournaments - he never was. Unless you consider his 21 points to Lemieux's 18 points a big margin. The others were by the smallest margin possible, and Perreault was leading Gretzky in '81 before Perreault's injury.
 
I was highlighting "best scorer" to show how good Gretzky was in regards to performing year to year, playoff to playoff and in tournaments. I wasn't implying that's the same criteria by which we should measure Orr.

Where I prefer Gretzky to Orr in terms of performances is that I feel like Gretzky had great performances every single playoff run in Edmonton (top scorer, by far, each time). Orr has some great playoffs - but also at least 1 or 2 so-so ones. 1973 for example. I admit that's before my time so I'm mostly going off of stats with that assessment, maybe you disagree?

In 1973 the Rangers blew out the Bruins in 5 games. Boston finished 2nd in the league to Montreal that season and the Rangers were right behind them in 3rd. Espo got hurt in Game 2 but the Rangers outplayed the Bruins start to finish. Cheevers had jumped to the WHA and Gilles Gilbert wasn't there yet so the Bruins had 37 year-old Eddie Johnston and 44 year-old Jacques Plante in goal for the playoffs. No match for Giacomin. Yes, Orr was so-so.
 
Not only was Gretzky not always the best scorer in international competitions by a big margin, but - in best-on-best tournaments - he never was. Unless you consider his 21 points to Lemieux's 18 points a big margin. The others were by the smallest margin possible, and Perreault was leading Gretzky in '81 before Perreault's injury.
Are you seriously trying to downgrade Gretzky's international performance by saying that although he led EVERY TOURNAMENT IN SCORING, he didn't win the scoring by a large enough sample?? Just when you think you've seen every desperate attempt to downgrade a great player...

1977-78 World Junior Championships
17 PTS -- Gretzky (age 16)
16 PTS -- Shkurdyuk (age 19)
15 PTS -- Lautenschlager (age 18)
15 PTS -- Makarov (age 19)

1981 Canada Cup
12 PTS -- Gretzky
11 PTS -- Bossy / Trottier / Lafleur / Kasatonov

1982 World Championships
14 PTS -- Gretzky
13 PTS -- Shalimov / Makarov
12 PTS -- Kapustin
11 PTS -- Larionov

1984 Canada Cup
12 PTS -- Gretzky
11 PTS -- Goulet / Coffey / Nilsson
10 PTS -- Loob

1987 Canada Cup
21 PTS -- Gretzky
18 PTS -- Lemieux
15 PTS -- Makarov
14 PTS -- Krutov

1991 Canada Cup
12 PTS -- Gretzky (missed 1.5 games)
11 PTS -- Larmer
9 PTS -- Hull / Modano


(About Lemieux's impressive totals at the '87 Canada Cup... how many of his 11 goals were assisted by Gretzky?)

Anyway, I guess Wayne just got lucky to lead six major international tournaments in a row in scoring. I mean, Mike Gartner could have done it...
 
Are you seriously trying to downgrade Gretzky's international performance by saying that although he led EVERY TOURNAMENT IN SCORING, he didn't win the scoring by a large enough sample?? Just when you think you've seen every desperate attempt to downgrade a great player...

1977-78 World Junior Championships
17 PTS -- Gretzky (age 16)
16 PTS -- Shkurdyuk (age 19)
15 PTS -- Lautenschlager (age 18)
15 PTS -- Makarov (age 19)

1981 Canada Cup
12 PTS -- Gretzky
11 PTS -- Bossy / Trottier / Lafleur / Kasatonov

1982 World Championships
14 PTS -- Gretzky
13 PTS -- Shalimov / Makarov
12 PTS -- Kapustin
11 PTS -- Larionov

1984 Canada Cup
12 PTS -- Gretzky
11 PTS -- Goulet / Coffey / Nilsson
10 PTS -- Loob

1987 Canada Cup
21 PTS -- Gretzky
18 PTS -- Lemieux
15 PTS -- Makarov
14 PTS -- Krutov

1991 Canada Cup
12 PTS -- Gretzky (missed 1.5 games)
11 PTS -- Larmer
9 PTS -- Hull / Modano


(About Lemieux's impressive totals at the '87 Canada Cup... how many of his 11 goals were assisted by Gretzky?)

Anyway, I guess Wayne just got lucky to lead six major international tournaments in a row in scoring. I mean, Mike Gartner could have done it...

"Big margin" is precisely what they are talking about. The stats you posted shows he didn't lead by a "big margin".
 
Are you seriously trying to downgrade Gretzky's international performance by saying that although he led EVERY TOURNAMENT IN SCORING, he didn't win the scoring by a large enough sample?? Just when you think you've seen every desperate attempt to downgrade a great player...

1977-78 World Junior Championships
17 PTS -- Gretzky (age 16)
16 PTS -- Shkurdyuk (age 19)
15 PTS -- Lautenschlager (age 18)
15 PTS -- Makarov (age 19)

1981 Canada Cup
12 PTS -- Gretzky
11 PTS -- Bossy / Trottier / Lafleur / Kasatonov

1982 World Championships
14 PTS -- Gretzky
13 PTS -- Shalimov / Makarov
12 PTS -- Kapustin
11 PTS -- Larionov

1984 Canada Cup
12 PTS -- Gretzky
11 PTS -- Goulet / Coffey / Nilsson
10 PTS -- Loob

1987 Canada Cup
21 PTS -- Gretzky
18 PTS -- Lemieux
15 PTS -- Makarov
14 PTS -- Krutov

1991 Canada Cup
12 PTS -- Gretzky (missed 1.5 games)
11 PTS -- Larmer
9 PTS -- Hull / Modano


(About Lemieux's impressive totals at the '87 Canada Cup... how many of his 11 goals were assisted by Gretzky?)

Anyway, I guess Wayne just got lucky to lead six major international tournaments in a row in scoring. I mean, Mike Gartner could have done it...
Of course I'm not downgrading Gretzky's best-on-best performances, which were excellent. I was merely correcting the other poster, who said that Gretzky led every one of his international tournaments in scoring by big margins. I pointed out that he never led a best-on-best by a big margin, which is accurate.
 
Wow!!!. Lemieux was unbelievable.


Look the Pens roster in 88-89 when he did 199 points in 76 games.

The Pens first power play unit was:

Lemieux
Coffey
Rob f.. Brown
Bob who Errey
Russ!!!! Taglianetti!!!

199 points with those guys.

In 87-88 the roster was even worse..and he did 168 points.

This is the prime healthy Lemieux at 22-23 years old.

After that 160 points in 60 games with cancer in 92-93...

A Real phenom

Have you ever seen Rob Brown play?:huh:


No doubt he wasn't a complete player but he did know his way around the offesnive zone.
 
Have you ever seen Rob Brown play?:huh:


No doubt he wasn't a complete player but he did know his way around the offesnive zone.
Yeah, Rob Brown was quite a phenom when he was young.

Did he grow up in Kamloops, is that why he played in the WHL when he was 15?
 
Come on man.. they had a good offence because of Mario.

The Guy scored 199 points in 76 games and 85 goals and the Top 5 in points on the team were:

Lemieux
Coffey
Brown
Quinn
Errey.

199 with that roster......4 or 5 years before you would that said To people that somebody would score 199 points with those guys..and everybody would have said..this is not possible you describing the best player ever.

Look at the 87-88 Pens roster..it is even worse...and he did 168 points


You do realize that 4 or 5 years before Coffey was scoring 120+ points and Dan Quinn was a near PPG player as a 21 year old with a pretty good offensive pedigree right?
 
Rob Brown dated Alyssa Milano so he must've been doing something right.
As noted in another thread, she was quite the hockey fan...
rob-brown-1992-46.jpg
2136024334_3949ec5ac2.jpg
cb18b76b686b342de4bb61ba76260eb3.jpg

Either that, or she was into short guys with mullets...
 
Are you seriously trying to downgrade Gretzky's international performance by saying that although he led EVERY TOURNAMENT IN SCORING, he didn't win the scoring by a large enough sample?? Just when you think you've seen every desperate attempt to downgrade a great player...

1977-78 World Junior Championships
17 PTS -- Gretzky (age 16)
16 PTS -- Shkurdyuk (age 19)
15 PTS -- Lautenschlager (age 18)
15 PTS -- Makarov (age 19)

1981 Canada Cup
12 PTS -- Gretzky
11 PTS -- Bossy / Trottier / Lafleur / Kasatonov

1982 World Championships
14 PTS -- Gretzky
13 PTS -- Shalimov / Makarov
12 PTS -- Kapustin
11 PTS -- Larionov

1984 Canada Cup
12 PTS -- Gretzky
11 PTS -- Goulet / Coffey / Nilsson
10 PTS -- Loob

1987 Canada Cup
21 PTS -- Gretzky
18 PTS -- Lemieux
15 PTS -- Makarov
14 PTS -- Krutov

1991 Canada Cup
12 PTS -- Gretzky (missed 1.5 games)
11 PTS -- Larmer
9 PTS -- Hull / Modano


(About Lemieux's impressive totals at the '87 Canada Cup... how many of his 11 goals were assisted by Gretzky?)

Anyway, I guess Wayne just got lucky to lead six major international tournaments in a row in scoring. I mean, Mike Gartner could have done it...

Of course I'm not downgrading Gretzky's best-on-best performances, which were excellent. I was merely correcting the other poster, who said that Gretzky led every one of his international tournaments in scoring by big margins. I pointed out that he never led a best-on-best by a big margin, which is accurate.

I apologize I didn't remember the scoring totals by heart and I assumed like everything else he did, he won by a "big margin". I knew he outscored everyone though.

The point I was trying to make still stands - his job was to score, and any season/playoff/tourney he scored more than anyone else - and at the NHL level, it's almost always by a really big margin. I think that's what separates him from Orr/Lemieux - I don't care if we want to argue they were "better" than him at their very best, in the end he simply performed better, because he always stepped up and had insane consistency and did it so often, and without fail.
 
I apologize I didn't remember the scoring totals by heart and I assumed like everything else he did, he won by a "big margin". I knew he outscored everyone though.

The point I was trying to make still stands - his job was to score, and any season/playoff/tourney he scored more than anyone else - and at the NHL level, it's almost always by a really big margin. I think that's what separates him from Orr/Lemieux - I don't care if we want to argue they were "better" than him at their very best, in the end he simply performed better, because he always stepped up and had insane consistency and did it so often, and without fail.
No need to apologize....it's generally pretty safe to assume Gretzky outscored everyone by large margins.

He was actually less than 100% health in parts of both '81 (an injury) and '84 (flu, I think), so he might've had a few extra points if completely healthy.
 
Have you ever seen Rob Brown play?:huh:


No doubt he wasn't a complete player but he did know his way around the offesnive zone.

I know BrownWell. I am 45 years old and I have seen Lemieux st his prime...Brown had some talent.

But what he did in his career after playing with Lemieux? Nothing.

Brown
Cunneyworth
Quinn
Errey

What they did exactly after playing with him?

They are not in the hall of fame...far from it..

And it is with those guys that Lemieux played healthy and at his prime.

He did 199 points with those guys....is there someone really thinking that he would not break 200 points...with Messier, Kurri and Anderson..
 
I apologize I didn't remember the scoring totals by heart and I assumed like everything else he did, he won by a "big margin". I knew he outscored everyone though.

The point I was trying to make still stands - his job was to score, and any season/playoff/tourney he scored more than anyone else - and at the NHL level, it's almost always by a really big margin. I think that's what separates him from Orr/Lemieux - I don't care if we want to argue they were "better" than him at their very best, in the end he simply performed better, because he always stepped up and had insane consistency and did it so often, and without fail.

This is the History site, no assuming!
 
The biggest obstacle of being a professional athlete at 37 years old is your body doesn't recover as quickly from the wear and tear. The wear and tear really adds up. In Lemieux's case, he barely had any. He quit for 3 full seasons from 32-34, then played a half and quarter season. So whereas many other players were beat down from playing in roughly 400 hockey games in the 5 years leading up to age 37, Lemieux played in 85. It's a huge advantage.

Hockey fans routinely discount what a grind and a marathon a hockey season actually is. You think you're being charitable to guys who got injured, but you're also screwing over the guys who showed up to play.
Lollllllll.

A guy with barely any wear tear doesn't miss many games, if any, due to injury or illness.

Look at the amount of games played from the start of his career to the "Three full years of rest" as you put it:

73, 79, 63, 77, 76, 59, 26, 64, 60, 22 (48 game season), 70, 76, three full years of rest.

The man has never played a full season in his life. He has multiple prime seasons with under 70 games played. That, my friend, is due to wear and tear. Oh and going through 22 radiation treatments while battling cancer, that is major wear and tear.

At 37, you're slower, naturally weaker, you lose your explosivess, your testosterone levels are much lower than they were 10 years prior. When Lemieux came back from the rest, he was a shell.

Look at Ovi, he still manages to score goals but he's a shell of the guy who used to beat 3 to 5 guys about 5 times a night in order to take a shot.
 
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He did 199 points with those guys....is there someone really thinking that he would not break 200 points...with Messier, Kurri and Anderson..

88-89
Lemieux - 199
Brown - 115
Coffey - 113
Quinn - 94

81-82
Gretzky - 212
Anderson - 105
Coffey - 89
Messier - 88

How do you explain how Gretzky did more points with these hall of famers that did less points. Isn't 107 pts more than a hall of famer a lot better than 84 pts more than an ordinary player?
 
Built your team with Brown, Quinn and Cunneyworth..and I Will take Messier, Anderson and Kurri..
 
Jordan had the *Flu* game Lemieux had the chemo game.

Get the f*** outta here Mike, you aren't as tough as you claim.

Mario had the "Radiation" game, not the Chemo game. HUGE difference between Radiation & Chemo. If he had Chemo, he wasn't coming back until the following season, if at all. I had Chemo for 6 1/2 months following Hodgkin's Lymphoma and I could barely move, let alone skate at at 38.
 
Built your team with Brown, Quinn and Cunneyworth..and I Will take Messier, Anderson and Kurri..

Probably a 200+ pts season for Gretzky with these guys, no problem. In 81-82 he made Dave Lumley score during 12 straight games, and he was setting the 50-in-39 AT THE SAME TIME...
 
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Probably a 200+ pts season for Gretzky with these guys, no problem. In 81-82 he made Dave Lumley score during 12 straight games, and he was setting the 50-in-39 AT THE SAME TIME...

LEMIEUX did 199...in 76 games...with them.

And the year before..168 points with Errey and Quinn...and Coffey played only 40 games.....he was ALONE...

A phenom.

CANCER in 93 ..came back and he did 56 points in 21 games...

Before the cancer...that season..he had 104 points in 39 games....
 
It was a special season, cause it was the only season after Mario’s comeback that he had a realistic shot at winning the Art Ross. Hell, he was so dominant in the first half of the season that you could believe he had the Ross trophy already locked.

I don’t know if it’s « under-appreciated », but I’m pretty sure Mario’s 2002-03 season would’ve been more fondly remembered if he had that crazy stretch at the end of the season instead of the beginning.

One last Art Ross would’ve been a nice cherry on top in Lemieux’s career that’s for sure.
 
It was a special season, cause it was the only season after Mario’s comeback that he had a realistic shot at winning the Art Ross. Hell, he was so dominant in the first half of the season that you could believe he had the Ross trophy already locked.

I don’t know if it’s « under-appreciated », but I’m pretty sure Mario’s 2002-03 season would’ve been more fondly remembered if he had that crazy stretch at the end of the season instead of the beginning.

One last Art Ross would’ve been a nice cherry on top in Lemieux’s career that’s for sure.

Looking at the roster, it wasn't as naturally skilled as the one Mario joined in 2000. Jagr and Lang had moved on in prior years, and kovalev was traded during this season.

That could also explain any drop he had as the season progressed . I'm not sure if Mario's drop coincided with kovalev's departure, but it would be easier for teams to focus on Mario when that other extraordinary talent around him was being shipped out.

I think that vaunted 5 man PP unit when Mario returned consisted of Lang, kovalev, straka, jagr, and Mario. By the end of this year, only straka and Mario were left. By this point, the pens roster looks to be in transition. It's hard to believe when you look at the star power up front in 2000, that they would ultimately be 5 years away from drafting crosby.
 
Lemieux and Gretzky were just at a different level, seemed unfair. Prime healthy 66 was the most dominant player to ever play the game.

Old broken down Mario at age 37 was still magnificent, deadly on the hashmarks on the PP.
Yes and yes. Gretz and Mario are demigods--in their own class, period. LEM was definitely the scariest player I ever watched--everything about him was intimidating as an opposing fan--his size, the black uniform, his reach, skill, sizzle, and ability to simply toy with teams. I spent many nights at the Spectrum in Philly watching Mario surgically take apart the Flyers. The worst part? ... He was so brilliant that you had to marvel at his greatness and couldn't even hate him.
 

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