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Player Discussion Marc Staal

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True Blue said:
Is this supposed to be the premise that a good offense makes for a good defense because the players are so good offensively that they keep the puck in the other end all the time?

I think that premise has been debunked. Unless I am just completely not understanding the statement.
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Well it's not really debunked.

The best defensive defensemen are the ones who don't spend a whole lot of time defending. Not necessarily because they're driving the offense, but because they're squashing out opportunities from the other team before they really even have a chance to get going.

Staal does the opposite of this. A soft chip into his corner and you're more than likely going to be spending 20-30 seconds in your own end.
 
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True Blue said:
Is this supposed to be the premise that a good offense makes for a good defense because the players are so good offensively that they keep the puck in the other end all the time?

I think that premise has been debunked. Unless I am just completely not understanding the statement.
Click to expand...
that premise has been debunked by who?

also that's only half true. plenty of defensemen are not good offensively but strong defensively precisley because they don't spend half their game time "Playing defense" i.e. blocking shots, fighting on the boards, etc.
 
Raspewtin said:
that premise has been debunked by who?

also that's only half true. plenty of defensemen are not good offensively but strong defensively precisley because they don't spend half their game time "Playing defense" i.e. blocking shots, fighting on the boards, etc.
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This can be good defense...

If you win the battle and get the puck going the other way. If you win the battle and turn it over immediately, you've put out one fire by starting another one.

Staal doesn't win many battles along the walls, but when he does the latter usually applies.
 
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Shattenkirk's not even that good on the power play anymore. In 16-17--the season he went from the Blues to the Caps he had 8 goals and 27 power play points. In 17-18 his first year with us--he had 2 goals and 12 power play points in an injury shortened season. He played most of last year and ended with 1 goal and 7 power play points. He basically got supplanted in that role first by Pionk and after Pionk's game fell apart second by DeAngelo. The Rangers still have Tony--they've brought in a 25 year old Trouba who put up 50 points last year and they've also added Fox who is another offensive D. If Fox shows he's NHL ready and there's a good possibility that he will where does Shattenkirk fit? Kevin's best asset is his offensive game and if it isn't better than DeAngelo's or Fox's he's got a big problem because he's sure not that hot defensively and he's the slowest skater of the bunch.
 
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ZuccsFluffierFluffer said:
This can be good defense...

If you win the battle and get the puck going the other way. If you win the battle and turn it over immediately, you've put out one fire by starting another one.

Staal doesn't win many battles along the walls, but when he does the latter usually applies.
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I know it can be. So can shot blocking. You can still avoid it more often if you are stronger at entry positioning, outlet passing, stick checking, etc.
 
True Blue said:
Is this supposed to be the premise that a good offense makes for a good defense because the players are so good offensively that they keep the puck in the other end all the time?

I think that premise has been debunked. Unless I am just completely not understanding the statement.
Click to expand...

That poster is oversimplifying it but there's some truth to it. It's more complex than he/she is making it out to be but the biggest overlooked thing is transition ability. A guy who is 'average~ish' defensively but has a great transition game (Tyson Barrie) will give up fewer chances than someone who is above-average defensively, with a bad transition game (Esa Lindell), as one example of this.

Also, as @ZuccsFluffierFluffer said, sniffing out plays before they really happen. Erik Karlsson was/is the king at stepping up at the offensive blue line and the red lines to really nullify play the other way before it could get started. He's a guy who has a reputation as being 'bad' defensively by casual fans and will get exposed from time to time in his own zone but he's still really good without the puck.

eco's bones said:
This contract is Staal's last big payday--fact is he might not get another contract at all. That could be happening to Dan Girardi right now. They have young families--so expecting them to walk away from their contracts is kind of ridiculous. Loyalty to the employer cuts two ways anyway--the loyalty needs to come back too (though it doesn't always) and in this case it's kind of for services previously rendered--which include concussions and a very damage eye.

That said I can see Staal thinking--'well the penalty kill was good tonight' or 'we kept their top line from scoring more than a goal' and sometimes the team wins and like it or not he's part of that. So how he analyzes himself--how the coaching staff analyze him can be a very different animal from how most fans might analyze him. They might at least see some positives now and again where the fans see only negatives.

I'm pretty sure he's with us again this year. I have been for buying him out in the past--don't see it happening this year--maybe next though--the cap penalty won't be so bad with only one year left and it gives some of the young LD a year they might need to develop.
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They're both PTO fodder at this point, still feels like yesterday when they comprised a top pair on this team.
 
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ZuccsFluffierFluffer said:
Well it's not really debunked.

The best defensive defensemen are the ones who don't spend a whole lot of time defending. Not necessarily because they're driving the offense, but because they're squashing out opportunities from the other team before they really even have a chance to get going.
Click to expand...
Becuase the presumption is that offensive defensemen only take offensive draws? You do defend in your own end You do defend in the neutral zone. You do need to defense opposition who gets the puck away from you when you are in offensive zone.

Best defensive defensemen tend to know how to defense as opposed to simply "drive offense". Another term the metric crowd love.
 
Raspewtin said:
that premise has been debunked by who?

also that's only half true. plenty of defensemen are not good offensively but strong defensively precisley because they don't spend half their game time "Playing defense" i.e. blocking shots, fighting on the boards, etc.
Click to expand...
People that believe defending means more than passing. Can't simply Corsi everyone into submission.
 
True Blue said:
Becuase the presumption is that offensive defensemen only take offensive draws? You do defend in your own end You do defend in the neutral zone. You do need to defense opposition who gets the puck away from you when you are in offensive zone.

Best defensive defensemen tend to know how to defense as opposed to simply "drive offense". Another term the metric crowd love.
Click to expand...

I don't even know what you're trying to say?

Offensive D don't only get OZD's. They may get heavily deployed there, but there is no way that they're going to be there all the time.

I said that the best defensive defensemen don't necessarily drive offense, we're in agreement there. To be a good defensively in your own end it basically requires you to get the puck and send it up ice before the other team really gets a chance to do much and with out turning it over.

The thing is, D who are usually seen as "bad" are commonly much better at doing this than D who are seen as "strong." Staal is a perfect example of this. How many times have we seen him fail to make a simple pass which results in a turnover and another 30 seconds of zone time and multiple shots towards our own net?
 
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True Blue said:
People that believe defending means more than passing. Can't simply Corsi everyone into submission.
Click to expand...

It's not as easy as just passing, it's transition ability. Imagine Marc Staal and Torey Krug defending a rush down the wing in identical situations. Staal is 6.04 with a long reach, Krug is 5.09 and has a reputation as being poor defensively. Player dumps the puck in their corner and it turns into a puck retrieval situation. Krug is gonna win a lot more of those races to the pucks and make a quick up or over play. Staal is gonna get bottled up a lot more along the boards and more broken plays will happen. Krug is gonna get obliterated every now and then causing a turnover but in the long run, your team is gonna give up less chances because of the transition ability of Krug vs the reach and size of Staal.
 
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Filthy Dangles said:
It's not as easy as just passing, it's transition ability. Imagine Marc Staal and Torey Krug defending a rush down the wing in identical situations. Staal is 6.04 with a long reach, Krug is 5.09 and has a reputation as being poor defensively. Player dumps the puck in their corner and it turns into a puck retrieval situation. Krug is gonna win a lot more of those races to the pucks and make a quick up or over play. Staal is gonna get bottled up a lot more along the boards and more broken plays will happen. Krug is gonna get obliterated every now and then causing a turnover but in the long run, your team is gonna give up less chances because of the transition ability of Krug vs the reach and size of Staal.
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This x100000.

This is also why Staal and Pionk were such a miserable pairing. Pionk was basically a free entry for anyone who tried him and Staal is crazy vulnerable to the chip and chase.

Neither of them could move the puck out of their own end either. Made for some fun times.

Staal played better with DeAngelo since TDA (who also sucks at entry preventions) was actually capable of retrieving the puck and getting it out before harm could be done, but it should be noted that Staal dragged DeAngelo down compared to the other guys he played with.
 
Without Pionk, Quinn is going to ride Staal 25 minutes a night this year. Book it.
 
will1066 said:
Without Pionk, Quinn is going to ride Staal 25 minutes a night this year. Book it.
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I cannot believe that the season has not yet started, and already Staal is getting killed and people are still dreaming that Shattenkirk has trade value right now. Going to be a long summer 'round these parts.
 
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